WhiteDove

Of course people move their hands but not in the way they do in P & W . I don't wave my hand in the sky in a trancelike posture when talking to people. maybe you do.

No I was answering her question. Had I considered it? and I had and the way I consider it is with scripture and I think it is very possible that's why we don't see Jesus and Company doing it. Even if it is not the intent of the person it does attract attention. Perhaps that was in part Jesus' point don't attract attention/ be a distraction from God who is supposed to be the focal point. We don't do it when talking to each other why do we feel the need to when we address God?

doojable Agreed and as I said its a free world people can do what they want but when someone asks What is the Big Deal I'm happy to share my opinion on it and what scripture records.

Well Belle as usual you have failed to read what I said. So, Dove, are you saying that all the other verses that have been mentioned on this thread (and there are many) are to be ingored because you have TWO that aren’t even explicit about forbidding the lifting of hands? First the most verses were posted by you. Mark covered that so I'll let it stand as is. No! that is not what I said. I did say several times in fact that there were verses in the OLD Testament that mentioned lifting hands I also said first that I am not sure that those verses are literal and not figurative. another words could be either way but for the sake of arguing this point (ie that because people did it that God commanded it) we will assume that it is literal as most have. Yes there are Old Testament records of Hebrew people doing this (lifting up of hands) Nowhere do I see where God asked or commanded that it be done. Nor do I see it mentioned in the New Testament as being done. (A fact that I find interesting in itself) conspicuously absent are Jesus and the apostles lifting hands up. None the less just because people do something in the Bible does not confirm that it was God who told them to do it or that He wanted or commanded them to do so. As it is today people do things for various reasons some of which are good and bad. Art shows some people raising their hands I don't disagree with you . Now the question is who are these people ? One could assume that it is David then again it could be razime the unbeliever that lives down the road. It's not a picture after all. You are calling your fellow posters who do like to raise their hands hypocrites and saying that they do this to be seen of men? Come on! Get over yourself! People do this in a church where it’s an accepted practice and where they are not the only ones doing it. To do something like that during an inappropriate time or place is wrong, but that’s not what we’re talking about here. The quote you mentioned was a answer to a question by doojable that is the context don't try to use it outside of that to imply what I said . This thread is about all things to do with raisen hands both appropriate and in appropriate read the title. In regards to your charge please note the bolded words in my answer to her question they are conditional not absolute... QUOTE doojable Consider that Jesus would not have to say anything about the matter because it is already mentioned in the Old Testament and by not mentioning it he did not change anything - I have considered that fact as I said before I am not convinced that it is literal and not figurative as in Timothy. And if it was literal it would not be the first time Hebrews adopted pagan ideas. I'm not sure that Jesus did not address this in scripture. It is possible that part of being seen is waving your hands about in which case he was quite clear as to not praying that way. Matthew 6:5 - And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. Ya know, they never celebrate birthdays in the Bible. It’s not even mentioned. Do you not celebrate birthdays for that reason? They never played football either – is football devilish and to be banned? This is so ridiculous I even cringe to answer but speaking of no validity... The Bible speaks about spiritual things not football or birthdays one with common sense would not expect it to contain such things. Hand lifting is however a subject that some align with worship a Bible concept so one would expect to find it in the scripture especially due to the fact that some think it is inspired. Another words the Bible addresses spiritual matters not senses matters your logic is flawed. Your reasons have no validity, imo. There are too many scriptures about raising hands for it to be considered a bad thing – regardless of whether some are figurative – which you haven’t proven that any of them are. Wrong again Belle several posters have agreed that the verse in Timothy is a figure of speech and you can look it up instead of assuming you know what you are talking about when you do not. There are also scriptures about worshiping Golden cows but that does not make it a good thing One must find out the truth in the scripture before we just google a quote ,that is what Mark nicely tried to tell you. As I said I know one is as to the others no one proved the were either so it's a toss up. Score 1 to 0 figurative if you really want to get to the nitty gritty. Consider that in Mark 7:1-ff Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and scribes because of their “religious” discipline, rules and regulations. He called them hypocrites and said that they honor with their lips but their heart is far from him. He said they teach for doctrines the commandments of men. If washing hands and cups and pots aren’t as important as the heart. He furthermore tells them that they’ve made the word of God of non effect through their tradition – ”and many such like things do ye.” v.13 and.... John 21:25 - And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. There are many things that aren’t recorded. Perhaps Jesus cut the rug in the temple and it’s just not recorded because it wasn’t necessary. The Bible does not cover every little detail of every minutiae. Except that his closest followers ask him to teach them how to pray do you really think Jesus or God for that matter would withhold such a thing if it were so important. We do also have records of prayer by Jesus and his followers so they are not missing from scripture by any means just none of them seem to mention hand waving. I find that odd. What is missing from scripture maybe some of that missing part you seem to cling to is any mention in the Christ or Grace administrations of Jesus or his disciples apostles or even the pig keeper waving hands when praying. Using your theory one could insert anything they wanted to prove in the Bible under the guise that it was done just not recorded. Fat Chance..... It’s been discussed here at the café how churches were not meeting the needs of the people and that’s why so many found TWI refreshing in the beginning. But churches have grown and changed in many ways to better meet the needs of the people and some of that includes the freedom to express your heart, emotions and feelings during appropriate times of the service. They’ve gotten away from the stuffy, rigid, cold, unresponsive services that were so boring and stiffling to so many people. It very well could be that the churches, in their religiosity, eliminated this essential part of the services a long time ago and now it’s making a comeback. People are being empowered in their churches – they’re being taught Biblical research, they’re able to attend classes to learn as much as they desire – churches are actually teaching now – why is it so illogical that they would also be adding freedom of expression back into the services Listen closely Belle I never said that churches could not do this I just said don't try to pass it off as biblical inspired action. Just say we like being emotional so we do it . That’s honest and fine if you like that sort of thing. Just don't try to twist some scriptural support for it. Heck people fly the bird all the time in traffic when cut off, it seems to be an emotion thing too but not scriptural. Perhaps I will try that next time and see how well my emotional choice is accepted in their meeting....... I also disagree that it’s a learned action. Have you ever seen kids playing or getting excited about something? Bodily responses to feelings are natural, basic unconscious reactions. I think, instead, that standing still, head down, not moving or showing any emotion is a learned action taught by staunchy, religious zealots who somehow got into their heads that worship can’t be fun, happy or joyful – it always has to be serious, dark, boring. Well churches that never did this sort of thing before now do ,and it directly is a result of Praise and Worship Music. why are not other bodily responses done it is always the ones that are learned ,approved. Watch a group sometime and when the hands start to moving.

Hey Oak I answered this in some earlier posts but no I don't think it is intrinsily wrong just extraneous.

Thanks David for posting the link you beat me to it again. I thought that had the info about the Messianic Trilogy. It is on tape also if interested.

On that we agree Allan for sure. I just get the CD's and fast forward through to the teaching. Very efficient too by the time they are normally done with the pre-show I can be done with the teaching. At any rate at least I know what to do with the periodic bonus CD's of P & W now, rather than pitching them in the trash.

Well Doojable The question in this thread is Whats the big Deal? And to me it is! very distracting in a public service. I don't do unnessary things as a whole. I don't fly east to New York first when going to California and I don't expend energy doing extraneous things when praying either. It does not do anything productive or in any way effect the prayer, except increase your chances for carpal tunnel. On the otherhand it is annoying and distracting for me when others are praying. Thats the big Deal to me.

That would appear to be the problem Cool perhaps while you were busy thinking up clever names such as cornfield vic you missed the fact that it was Aramaic not Greek for starters.

So then you are saying that man changes and moves forward while the prayers stay the same. Another words man is updating the music style and actions as he sees fit to match the times. I agree My point exactly man changed it. It is a learned response not a inspired one in most cases. Which makes it extraneous,not inspired action, but what someone deemed necessary to keep up with the times. Which by the way is not a scriptural mandate either.

I'll break it down However, there are a number of differn't emotive issues when praying, praying in earnest, lifting up his eyes to heaven etcc..I doubt seriously that Jesus just sat there and mechanically rattled off his prayers and worship. This I agreed with I never said he did. It should always be from the heart Agreed and I believe bodily reactions will often be a reaction to what is emanating from the heart. I don't !!! And neither does scripture nor Jesus,Paul,Peter or any other in the context of extraneous things like hand raisin.. People have prayed just fine for years without moving and shaking. To pray from the heart does not require bodily actions if someone chooses to do a bodily action it is generally a learned action. People who for years prayed in churches now just since the great P & W craze now think they need to do something else. So were their prayers not from the heart all those years? Bodily actions are controlled by the person. (one would hope unless there is a greater spiritual problem). We are free to move or not move. Show me one scriptural record in the New Testament where it was done or where it accompanied any prayer. That's why I reject it as unsound

We share some of the same concerns about emotional experiences. For the record I'll say it again I never said it was wrong nor did I say Jesus said or implied it was . I said it was extraneous. You can read my earlier posts as to why that is. My point was and is WHY DO SOMETHING THAT HAS NO SCRIPTURAL URGENCY TO DO? WHAT IS THE POINT IN DOING THINGS JUST FOR THE SAKE OF DOING SOMETHING THAT HAS NO EFFECT ON THE PRAYER OR ITS OUTCOME. AND IF WE ARE GOING TO DO THESE THINGS WHO PREY TELL GETS TO DECIDE HOW FAR WE WILL GO IN OUR QUEST FOR EMOTION? Mainly I am speaking in regard to the church what people do in their own private prayer life is their business. QUOTE Consider that Jesus would not have to say anything about the matter because it is already mentioned in the Old Testament and by not mentioning it he did not change anything - I have considered that fact as I said before I am not convinced that it is literal and not figurative as in Timothy. And if it was literal it would not be the first time Hebrews adopted pagan ideas. I'm not sure that Jesus did not address this in scripture. It is possible that part of being seen is waving your hands about in which case he was quite clear as to not praying that way. Matthew 6:5 - And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. As an example perhaps this is how God see's it. If a child always brought his blanket with him when he asked for something from you. It would not make a difference in your response to them. In turn it would not effect your decision either it would be neutral, extraneous. It is not wrong but at some point say age 45 you will look pretty stupid with your blanket talking to your parents. As I said several times there is no wrong in it but what is the point? From the start man has invented ideas that he thinks are needed to be close to God. Like a kid with their blanket there is no wrong or right in it so like a parent He just accepts it because He loves us. I wonder though if at some point He does not wonder why we have not moved beyond the blanket stage. Even if the records in the Old Testament were literal with the coming of the Christ administration we have a definite change in how the church functions. With something as important as prayer I simply can't believe that Jesus would have not addressed this if it was of such importance . And why is it that just in the last few years this has become such a big thing if it is so important to prayer?

Ex I did not miss his point but you are right I did dismiss it do to the fact that it is not sound thinking. As I said,and no one can so far explain Why do Christians in churches who for years prayed and received answers to prayer now feel the need to raise their hands, What changed? Those who would never have thought to do such a thing before now do. I would say it is because of learned response! They prayed from the heart for years so why is something else now needed? It is not, the difference is someone told them or led them by example that it was now socially acceptable to do these things if fact it is encouraged so they do. That hardly constitutes a bodily inspired action. If we are excepting all from the heart actions fine but that as you know is not the case. As I said I doubt a foot in the air or fingers waving in the ears would be acceptable which is the point only certain approved as socially acceptable actions are permitted which tells me that it is not a inspired action but a approved response. As I said before I don't think one could say there was anything intrinsically wrong with this practice, but one would wonder what is to be gained in doing something that we clearly have no scriptural urgency to do. It's a free country people can do what they want. I just hope that they remember to be as excepting as they want me to be when I do my thing in their meetings... You can do what you want when you pray you don't need my permission one way or the other but this is a discussion on the subject and I still can't think that regarding prayer Jesus would have not somewhere at least mentioned this important action.

I never said he did. To pray from the heart does not require bodily actions if someone chooses to do a bodily action it is generally a learned action. For instance waving hands is often seen not often seen raising ones foot WHY? because they did not learn it by observation of others around showing them what is or is not acceptable. People who for years prayed in churches now just since the great P & W craze now think they need to do something else. So were their prayers not from the heart all those years? As I said before who decides? Is it whatever makes one feeeeeeel good. Will I be accepted if I put my thumbs in my nose and wiggle my hands it really makes me feeeeeel good like waving all my cares away......

There is a record in Luke 11 where one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. This would have been the opportune time for Jesus the son of God who one would assume certainly knew how to pray rightly if anyone did to address any accompanying actions regarding prayer. His closest followers asked a honest question desiring teaching . And yet conspicuously absent is any reference to now guys when you pray wave your hands like this.... No where here or anywhere does he instruct anyone to perform any sort of corresponding action with prayer. In fact the opposite Jesus mostly prayed alone away from people. Luke 1:1- 5 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. 2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. 3 Give us day by day our daily bread. 4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. He did make reference to those praying to be seen: Matthew 6:5 - And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward Now Jesus having the perfect opportunity to share with all mankind ,forever written in scripture ,apparently did not feel it was important to make known this practice of hand lifting. I still have the same question What is the point? If Jesus did not think it central to prayer why should I? Some have pointed out that art or history shows Hebrew people in different postures of prayer. Art and history also show God's people wanting to go back to Egypt where they thought they left their God. It also shows us a people who built a golden calf and worshiped it . And a people who consistently turned to idols. Are we to assume because it is recorded in the Bible that we are to do the same also? One would think that Jesus who loved his disciples surely would not have held back this important fact when asked how to pray. And yet no mention of it ,nor any mention of it by any of His followers in the whole New Testament. I'm guessing Jesus got it right.....

Doojadove -To pee in ones pants is not a good representation of a Dove cult member. Pleae use the little white chair instead.

Mark Your post reminded me of one of the good memories of Catholic Church. In the basement of the church some of the high school kids started a club. For some reason I don't know why, it seems odd as I think about it now but there was a stage already there. Sunday nights from 7:00 till 10:30 they would have dances for the 9th through 12 graders. It was a dark and dingy old church basement with some old furniture and posters that the kids had hauled in. They had local bands play the place was packed each week. Then one day someone got the idea that the music was cracking the plaster in the church upstairs so they shut it down. We used to borrow the overhead projector from the school and stack clear pie pans on top filled with oil and food coloring to light the walls (long before the days of oil projectors.) Hey it worked cheap band lighting 101 it looked like this

and a little desert a nice apple pie.

Mike here is the breakdown on the notes for 73 -87 what was covered I think they did Acts those first years but not sure the others I have so I know that they are correct. Corps Notes 1971 - (Unconfirmed but I think they did Acts) 1972 -(Unconfirmed but I think they did Acts) 1973 Timothy (Sept.1973 -through Aug. 1974) 1974 Timothy (through Aug. 1974) Ephesians (Sept.1974-June 1975) 1975 Acts (Sept. through Jan 1977) 1976 Acts (Sept. through Jan 1977) 1977 Acts (Sept. through Jan 1977) I & II Thessalonians (Feb.1977 - Feb 1978) 1978 I & II Thessalonians (Feb.1977 - Feb 1978) Romans (Sept. 1978 - July 1980 1979 Romans (Sept. 1978 - July 1980 1980 Romans (Sept. 1978 - July 1980 1981 Ephesians (Sept.1981- through May.1982) 1982 Ephesians (Sept.1981- through May.1982) I Corinthians (Sept. 1982) 1983 I I Corinthians (June 1983) Galations (Sept.1983 through Nov. 1983) 1984 Philippians ( Jan.1984 through March 1984) Colossians ( May1984 through June 1984) Timothy ( Sept. 1984 through June. 1985 ) 1985 Timothy & Titus ( Sept. 1984 through June. 1985 ) 1986 Galations- ( Sept. 1986 through April 1987) 1987 Galations- (through April 1987)

Mike They were done twice 1. Sept. 10 1974 - June 3 1975 2. Sept 9 1981 - June 2 1982

Obviously you have failed to see the in-depth spiritual learning here, if you would have picked your snacks by revelation there would be no problem now would there. Walking by the snack spirit is foundational perhaps you will want to practice before arriving. Please report back each week on your progress with your snack exceller sessions. This may be a stupid question but if you are staying at a hotel couldn't you just pick up your snacks there. And why do we need snacks anyway? Sounds like someone has cut the food budget. Prevailing Word Literal: We are planning to starve you while you are here so even though we sold you a meal plan please bring your own food and snacks.

Dot Nevermind I bettter email it to you.

For Candy

Mudbath huh !!! Well here is how you make a real pig fly.....How about a little fire Piggie..... Bacon for everyone comming up.

Oh Dot Relax you can find the Raggedy one here in Bettys Attic With lots of other cool things heck you can even get this Busy Bee And Mr. Machine and Lamb Chop and Bozo Bop Bag and the Frogman Divers Frogman You can still find the wax filled bottles Sather's Candy still makes them. Wax Bottles See all is Good it was just a bad dream....