WhiteDove

Nice try Potato At 6 I had no standard to compare her actions with, but you see as adults who did have a standard it is a little different story. You might wanna try thinking before you post.

Rascal I have no more to say I've said several times that if people taught wrongly or treated others wrongly they own that and are accountable for it. I've never disputed that with you. I don't believe their actions in these isolated cases were due to doctrine. you could have taught them any doctrine you wanted or none at all. They still would be abusers because they have that within them they were abusive people that happened to be in the way they could have been abusive people that happened to be in the Catholic church or the Hari Krishna's. but they didn't they ended up here. They were not abusers because they twisted teachings they twisted teachings because the were abusers. That said I don't think it's fair for you to paint the picture you do with your wide brush. In the first grade I had an abusive nun for a teacher. Several of us had to stand in the back of the class holding all the things from our desk, because she found a little letter that was used in our spelling cards in the desk. I cleaned my desk as told but it must have been in a book or something and fell out. So off we went for three days no recess standing all day , holding pounds of books if anything dropped during the three days another day for each offence. When I got home that night and my arms were cramping I told my parents why. Needless to say she was sent away - to a crazy house in fact never to return. The doctrine she believed was fine being clean and orderly but she was flawed and used it to be abusive. I don't blame the church for her actions it was not their teaching it was the misuse of that teaching by a flawed person.

Chas I have no desire to fight with you or anyone else, but I will fight for truth and honesty. I have many friends that went though the Family Corps it was hardley the hell hole that Rascal desires to paint it to be. I'm not sure why you think that I felt that because YOU didn't experience it, IT did NOT happen. I think I said a few times that I never disputed that the records were true only that I could not validate them as such personally, This is the internet people post all kinds of things for a variety of reasons not everything you read here is true because it was posted ,we have seen other posts here turn out to be untrue because of personal anger, and other reasons. It is a anti way site I'd be foolish not to consider that the views just might be biased. What that means is we have words that I ,me ,Personally can not prove one way or another. On the other hand I do have my own experience that I do know is true which does not support those words. That does not make the records untrue either by any means, but as I have said before I've seen what has happened because of others words that were accepted. Rubin Carter and many others have sat wrongly in jail for a better part of their lives,because someone believed words about them, only because of DNA testing are they now free. Sorry but I will not pass judgment on people based on words on the web from people I don't know. As far as anyone NOT taking ownership for their decisions, I guess we will agree to disagree. I don't know how to say it any clearer, the focal point of the way teaching starting with PFAL was The Word of God is Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice, that's the biblical standard by which we were to make judgments in our life. If we were taught wrong information our job was to check it with scripture. If we did not , I don't place the blame on the teacher, I say I should have done what I know to be true checked the scripture. It's like a little kid saying" he told me to do" it to justify why he threw a rock through a window when he knew better. If Rev so and so said to shoot yourself would we have done that also? To be told to beat your kids is as illogical, the alarms should have gone off and then we go back to the standard for truth. Jesus said the same thing "you error because you know not the scriptures" He set the standard he did not say oh you probably were just taught wrong or misinformed it's ok blame your teachers. They were taught wrong, but they also had the scriptures they could have not been in error and Jesus called them on it. I don't think he was being mean just truthful some in his time may have thought he was calloused. Each owns their own here the teachers who taught wrongly are accountable, if we failed to check teaching with scripture we are accountable. and if you did you say God I'm sorry I was taught to prove all things and I did not, thanks for your forgiveness. You may disagree, that's fine I just don't see anywhere where" he told me to do that" cuts any ice with God. I have nothing to gain, not looking for gain ,only that truth is spoken. I'm equally confused why Rascal seems to want to discredit hundreds of people that had a different experience than she paints. It's a slap in the face you need to accept that your experience was not right it was really a torture dungeon there, you are just ill informed. I left because the trustee's of the Way had turned away from God and His Word, and had no desire to return to any sanity. They were clearly on a course of destruction, and hurt for God's people and if I stayed around I would be supporting the hurt to my spiritual family and eventually be drug down with their ungodliness. Scripture told me that My Fathers will was to do otherwise. So I did despite the personal consequences to my life they were irrelevant. They clearly were engaged in unscriptual actions. Peace

Me or hundreds of other people I know either who were there. There is a huge difference between forcing someone to do something and asking, telling or even pressuring someone to do something. Everyday we are asked to do things like stop at stop signs and pay taxes. they are rules, laws for us to follow. Most people do, if not you pay the consequences of your choice. But the truth is we still have a choice no one forces us, if you don't mind paying the fine or going to jail you can run all the stop signs you want. No one was forced to obey anyone, as I said that does not mean that there were not consequences if you did not but the choice was there. You imply that that was none. What makes you think I was not? And no my perspective is not different, none of those threats move me. I've been through the same gauntlet of threats they are nothing new. Fortunately I had the scriptures to clarify if those things they said were true or not. I had a choice. The truth is hundreds if not thousands of people spent time at Rome City and had a perfectly enjoyable experience. For what ever your reason as is you manner you have again isolated a few instances and tried to paint the place as some sort of Marquis de Sad dungeon where children were tortured. The balance of facts don't support that conclusion. Sorry I'm not letting you wipe out years of truthful history because of a few exceptions in the later years. I freely admitted that I have no knowledge of what occurred in later years as I was not there nor did those I knew hang around during that time. I never disputed that the records were true only that I could not validate them as such personally,nor have I ever heard such claims from others. It's dishonest to take isolated events from one time period and transpose them into all time periods. As even many here will admit there was never any Way doctrine compelling anyone to abuse their children. With all the many people that became involved with the way I'm sure that there were some with existing issues, in fact I know that there were. You can plug any doctrine you want into these individuals and they will alter it to their predisposed personality flaws. Controlling people will be controlling ,abusive people will be abusive, that does not make the doctrine bad only the ones who misuse it incorrectly. Personally I was never a spoon fan myself I never saw the sense of caring around a cooking tool. We had an abundance of children here any none of them were ever physically abused due to any teaching. I've worked children's fellowship at three root locations and have never seen anyone abused there either. To those who think I take myself a little too seriously, you obviously don't know me, anyone who does would not think that was true. The truth is for whatever reason all those years of teaching on Prove all things hold fast to that which is good, It Is Written , The Word of God is Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice, The Word of God is the Will of God I guess sunk in. I suppose I was naive enough to believe that was how everyone lived their life. I wish I knew what makes some to rise to believe and stand, while others falter, if I did I'd bottle it up and give it away. Dot thank you for your kind words but I never saw myself as some great leader nor do I today. I only did what I knew to do instinctly . To me it is like breathing, something you do yet don't think about. Honestly to this day it remains a mystery to me why anyone would be moved by such things as loss of position, jobs, family issues, being M&A, access to way materials, threats of losing God's love and others when we have so much clear instruction from scripture to the contrary. My Bible says nothing can separate us from God's love. It seemed such a simple choice, thinking back I guess I never considered putting any of those things before my relationship with God was viable option. Of all the lessons learned in my time at the way I remain most thankful for somehow by God's grace learning that one. I wish I could say I always make right choices of course we know that is not true. I've thought about this a lot over the last years and the times that I did not make sound choices were the times I failed to keep my thoughts grounded in scripture. And perhaps that is the answer I think VP used to say that we hold the word but the word does not hold us. I am a firm believer in owning your own choices and consequences in life. As I said if someone teaches me wrongly they own that and it's consequences. But I do have a reference point from which I can make right choices so if I don't, It's me O Lord who is responsible no one else.

How cool is this paint job thats one mean looking eagle watching our boys and girls backs.

I'm holding out for Joyful Noise Unplugged Backstage Pass The real story....... If ya hurry you can beat the release of DIS-Branded and DIS- Banded

Cathy I was far from sheltered from the Way dear, I've tried to avoid talking about myself but since you seem to want to for me I suppose I will. I guess since my dear friend EX10 divulged some things about me awhile back on another thread you seem to believe you are an authority on my life and what I know and don't. Here's a clue you aren't....... First I was in the Corps and although I married into the Corps I definitely took it to heart to participate in the program and serve as well as any Corps did. I know it is fashionable to view those who did not go through in residence training as a lesser Corps. I dealt with that as many Corps spouses have while The Way. And I guess It seems you want to see that I do again, after all these years. In fact I had a long talk with Jonny T about that subject as I was aware of that attitude before I got married. You may remember that he was honorary Corps himself. He gave me some good advice many years ago, he told me if I ever had someone cop that attitude to just look them straight in the eye and remind them that everyone was in the Corps because of God's grace. It was by His mercy and grace that they had made it this far in life. I guess that pretty much puts us all on equal footing he said. Don't even try to make me question my understanding or commitment to the Way Corps principles. He also said if I ever needed for him to have a talk with someone that he would be happy to do that. Do I need to? Second I was married to a 3rd family Corps grad who lived at Rome City for many years. My step son Victor yes named after Dr Wierwille was a mini Corps there also for three years. My wife on occasion cut VPW hair and gave him manicures he knew Victor from his birth. His father was on staff there as well for many years. So I do have some idea what went on there. Victor spent summers there even after we had left the Way into the 90s. Third you have no idea what I know or don't don't assume you do! Fourth I have spent many hours reading through Corps notes, tapes and talking with and working with many Way Corps brothers and sisters. As I said I'd be happy to discuss what was taught and not with you anytime you want to. You might want to refresh your memory if you ever did read it in the first place sometimes I wonder? I've worked at most of the root locals at one time or another. and attended too many Corps meetings. Fifth I have a good report among my peers and former leadership. I have worked along side of many for years from T Cr*b to R*ss Tr*cy to J. T*wnsend and many others. while I am embarrassed to discuss this they would be happy to speak to my caliber and service if you would like to inquire I'm sure. Sixth I worked at the Way C of E for almost a year along side the Corps when they bought the place in 74. I ate slept ,and worked with them and attended some Corps night long before I was in the Corps household. There is a load of furniture at the Way Int. because I sent it there on the WAY Semi truck which included the executive desks that Howard and Craig used although I'm sure later they had new ones. I sent items to the Way Credit Union working with Ann*l** Sc*pur* So you see for years I have worked with been exposed to and picked the brains of Way Corps I also sponsored a few along the way. As I said I took my responsibility to the Way Corps very seriously. And still do for that matter to the best of my ability attempt to. So before you lecture me on what I know and don't perhaps you need to look at your own life and what has become of your commitment. What makes you such an authority on Rome City? I never laid claim to know everything about the Way Corps nor the WOW program ever your assumption. Anytime you want to debate what was taught I'm right here waiting. I'm sorry you choose to resort to personal attacks rather than prove your point I thought better of you.

That may well be Coolchef but if and where I was I accept responsibility for it. I was taught bettter, to check it with scripture. I won't pass on the responsibility to someone else for my lack of doing what I was taught to do. No one forced me to make the choice I did I could have made a different one.

No you quoted waysider's post and asked why I insisted something that I did not that is not agreeing with the originator of the thread. Thats a question which I answered

I tend to think it is, like I said this is not a major research project to figure out from scripture if God wants us to beat our children or anybody else for that matter with a two by four. I think most people could get it pretty quickly, of course one would have to put forth the effort to open the book and look. If there were any twisting going on it would be pretty quickly seen. Honestly it is a nice try playing the it could have been twisted card. But I'd be willing to bet that if a poll were taken of most Christians without even needing to check their Bibles most would be able I'd guess 90% would be able to tell you that beating your child was not scriptural. To imply that one could not know this because scripture could be twisted is ridiculous. Hell I'd bet most non Christians could figure out that the Bible does not promote beating your children. DUH........

You may be struggling because you attributed a quote to me that Wasider said not me. I'll refer those questions to the poster. As to this statement I never said people who are victimized are at fault what I said was when faced with wrong teaching we have a choice to accept it or a choice to search the scripture to see if it holds truth. Which has nothing to do with rapes, muggings wife abuse and whatever else you added in to the mix. As Christians which at the time we were. when faced with a doctrine that did not sound right we should have responded by saying, that sounds strange I think maybe I need to look at what the Bible says and see if that is true or not. That is what we were taught to do. It Is Written. Now we are faced with two choices check the scriptures or don't check the scriptures. If we don't check the scriptures then that is a choice our choice and we honestly should own the results good or bad from our choice. If we do check the scriptures on the other hand then we get the results of that choice which would have been truth, and we would have seen that what was presented was not scriptural. You wrongly assumed that there is fault in this there is not ,only choices and consequences that go with the choice. that's the way life goes we all face the same choices every day. but when we make a decision and my bible says free will choice, then we need to own that choice good or bad results. In this case choosing to believe unscriptural words issued in a bad choice and various results none good I dare say. True the teacher may have mislead you (but isn't that they way it usually is in life, Rarely is the choice clear that would be too easy) But his misdirection does not force you to respond in more misdirection We have a bible to refer to to help us make the right choice. If one fails to consult the manual then the result is yours when it does not work. Thats life........

I never said that it did or that was my basis for my beliefs there is more...... No it does not it is what it is their perspective you can say anything that does not make it truth. I can line up as many that would say otherwise you accept them as truth because you want to see it that way . And For the record I never said that they could not be true, that does not mean that the ministry forced or taught them to do such if it was, there are many reasons that could lead to that. You assume that because it happened, that the way must have taught it. And when faced with finding a record some tangible proof of that theory of course it is the return of the mysterious teaching that never was. I suppose anything you want to prove can be done with a theory like that. I suppose that I could say that the way never taught that we were to tithe either despite the recorded records and books. Oh yeah those aren't true yeah that's just what they said on paper, there was this mysterious teaching behind the scene that was the real story. No we were never taught to tithe. we all know what was really taught. Pretty lame when the written record says otherwise. The record of lack of teaching on child abuse is as clear as the record on tithing. I can accept both at face value and place the blame if any where it belongs on each individual if an abuser.

I'll take that question my northern neighbor. Probably because of statements like this where people claim we were forced to do things. A logical response is really? who forced you and how did that happen? Was a spoon glued in your hand and were you hooked up to a machine that forced your hand in a downward motion beating your kid below...... I would dispute that we were forced to do anything, we had choices and we had scripture to keep us in line with truth. This is not some heavy research project here that takes a theologian to discern or that one would need a masters in Greek to figure out. Does God say I should beat my child? Gee a concordance and a cup of coffee and I think most could figure it out. Fine if that is the point stick to it don't drag stories of how we were forced to comply into it to bolster the claim. In the cases where this happened then those responsible own that and the wrong that goes with it . but that does not get us off the hook to do what we should have done either. It's two separate issues one they did wrong. two we now have a choice to do right or wrong according to the scriptures and what we were taught to do. No force a choice......

I instructed a few CFS classes myself I presented the material as what it was what VPW said he saw in the scriptures ,but without solid scripture evidence I could do no more. If you accepted it as truth set in scripture that was your error. As for pointing out that it has no scriptural basis: Try that one in Fellowlaborers. Be sure to set your alarm clock for 4 a.m. because that's about the time you will be awakened and informed that the MOG has received revelation that you are to leave the program immediately and never set foot in the state again."Thus saith the Lord." I never said that there could or would not be consequences for standing up for truth now did I? But since when is that a scriptural basis for actions? I read where we are supposed to do what is right, just, and truthful despite the fact that we may removed from a program. So what? This erroneous thinking is Exactly why many stayed around to ruin other people's lives. No integrity, doing what is right only when it does not creep into their comfort zone.

There are no Way teachings on beating your child as others have attested to. If someone relayed that to you as scriptural they were wrong and it could have easily been seen from scripture. had someone bothered to check. I have never heard any such teaching personally in my years in the Way and I have heard a lot of if not most taught, plenty of teaching on spoons, more than I cared too. I have a stepson a third family Corps graduate mini Corps. I've walked the halls of Rome City and not seen any such action nor has my stepson. Yes I've seen people correct their or someone else's kids wrongly. We all have different standards for how we raise our children even outside the way that's true Lindy. What someone else may allow another may not and I'm sure at times it was confusing. Having that many people correct kids was a recipe for chaos to me. I have always believed and advocated that was the parents job, except in the case of emergencies where a decision needed to be made before someone was injured. Were there some crazy people in the way You bet! with hundreds of thousands of people involved you get all kinds. But it is that way out here also I had a abusive teacher in my first grade but it was not the schools teaching it was a crazy person that was a teacher. I'm sure especially in the later years that their were some nut jobs around. And if not the stress probably produced some. I'm sorry if no one spoke up for you but they could have and should have gone to the scripture where there is no encouragement to beat your children.

Really? I think he taught The Word of God is the Will of God, It Is Written, and The Word of God is Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice. I don't ever recall hearing him say to except a man's words as truth. In fact a gazillion times I think he said don't believe it because I said it. Don't assume you know my background ,(you don't) what I did or what I know or don't . I'd be happy to discuss with you on what was taught anytime you like. Wrong again! what I said was we all as Christians have the responsibility to check the scriptures to see if what men teach us is truth or not. That is what I learned from VPW from PFAL on -It Is Written. If someone taught you wrong lessons that is their mistake to own...... If you failed to do as you or I should have done it is our mistake to own. Despite wrong teaching we could have done right had we done what we were instructed to do. That does not negate their seperate issue, but I have found it's best to start with your own mistakes own them before you rant about someone else's.

I believe we were taught that revelation will never be at cross instruction of what the scriptures say. Excepting someone's word without checking the scriptures is unscriptural and I would not be afraid to call someone on it. More specifically in the AC: If your in a situation class where you don't know whether it's revelation or not check the Word Go back and check what? ( The Word) If what you think lines up with the Word, it's already what? (Revelation) It's so simple......VPW

This lesson dealt with questioning scripture,adding to, deleting from and so on. Not regarding teachings of men. We were always to "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good . A big difference between the two. I think VP said it this way Right results, come from right believing, from right teaching, from right doctrine, from right Word.

QUOTE Every single person who stayed in TWI past graduating from PFAL failed in some measure to completely "check the scriptures". Maybe so depending on your point of view. I'd make it simpler everyone has failed in some measure to completely "check the scriptures. Exactly so why is it anyone's fault but ours? So mistakes were made move on quit making everyone else responsible for our failure to do what we were taught. It's pretty simple I make mistakes every day but I wont blame someone else for my mistake. If they taught me wrongly that's their mistake to own not mine, I still have the choice to look for myself to see if what they said was in fact true. QUOTE So, I'll be brief. 2 Tim 2:15 was trumped by a misinterpretation of "private interpretation." That teaching made it so that the "Word" you were being taught was not the word of men, but the word of God and beyond reproach. This was shortly after the teaching of the integrity of "the Word." The teaching of the fall of man was in there as well. Eve considered, questioned, changed words etc. and that was wrong. All you had to do was buy into a handful of those original foundational teachings and critical thinking was out the window. I must have missed that Lindy my Bible says "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good' Psalms 119 says "Thy Word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee. that lined up with what I learned It Is Written. I finished the class, ran a few, was around for 18 years or so. It never occurred to me that my responsibility was to ignore scripture in favor of men's words. QUOTE Hmmm and that mitigates what we were taught in twi how? Sure we searched the scriptures..... Well to start even if one ignored the scripture which you seem to indicate that we were forced to do. I would have pointed out the inconsistencies in Way doctrine and asked for a explanation of why they failed to teach the same and for some scriptural proof for their theory. Pretty simple Like this The founder/President/Teacher says the following you have said this the opposite I was wondering why you seem to think that? and can you show me some scriptural proof why that is you think this way. And is VPW aware that you have disputed his teaching cause I'd be interested to hear what he had to say about that.

One question? Why did it not occur to anyone to check the scriptures to see if what was being taught was in fact truth. If the earnest desire was and I believe it was to be obedient to God then why did people not do the one basic thing we heard from day one starting in PFAL The Word of God is the Will of God, I don't know of anyone that was around past a coffee break, that was not taught that to find out what God's Will was you needed to search and know the scriptures, that is how you find out "how to be obedient to God". How many gazillion times did we hear The Word of God is Our Only Rule for Faith and Practice. So why was it not? Was It Is Written just a slogan on the wall? Further when common sense caused a HUH? moment in our life, why were we to abandon years of teaching only to accept anything as truth? And even if one failed to search the scriptures as we knew to do then why at least were not the doctrines questioned in contrast to teaching received. Like this one. God gave his Word, in the written form, the reason being that He might interpret Himself and His will to us and for us. The Word of God is the Will of God, and no man or woman can really know the Will of God, without knowing the Word of God. To know God's Word you can not go by tradition, you can not go by the history of so called Christendom, you have to go back to the integrity of the Word. You can not go by what men say, by what theologians say, by what clergy or by what anyone else may say, you have to come back to the Word of God VPW We teach our children that if they fail to obey certain rules, or things in life that they will reap the results of their actions. I wonder why we think it is someone else's fault when we as adults do the same? I think the scriptures tell us to "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good' Psalms 119 says "Thy Word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee. That's how to obey God and when and if we do not do that then It's me O Lord........ spelling edit

One note to WW post "Take a Stand for God" the fifth book was also published by European Christian Press.

I don't agree at all, What support system existed? We were left for dead to rebuild our own life. We heard the same threats then as they do now ,were called every name under the sun. There was no one before us that had left to help us to lead the way like now. It was a decision made a conscious choice, a step off the cliff so to speak and these were people with years of service to the Way with years loyalty, people who had given their heart and soul for years to the ministry. But one thing they were not willing to do was to support unscriptural actions. It was not a choice that most wanted to make but it was the foundation of our lives God first, a lesson we had learned well. All fear, jobs, controlling words, lack of access to people and things pale when you weigh it according to scripture. then the choice is simple. To give up freedom of choice and submit to unbiblical actions is a result of a habit pattern of not aligning actions with scripture, following ministries and men, a choice we all can make or not.

And these people allow this WHY? .... Tell me again I forget..........

Tom The cymbal from Sun King was turned around backwards for an effect on the track Within You Without You/Tomorrow Never Knows. By mistake the vocals were also backwards tracked. They liked the sound of it and Gnik Nus was born. It's classic Lennon. It's a quick track 54 seconds that fades into Something

Looks to me like the reporter was just giving some background having noticed that it was not just a family gathering. The inclusion of the word member also seems to suport that, no one in the Way would use that word, but a reporter would,which is why it looks to me like she just wrote up a story. There is no long detail about the Way making it the focus of the story actually the cat got the most press from what I see.