WhiteDove

1985? so it was public domain up until then Oldies?

I dug out my copy of J.E. Stiles The Gift of the Holy Spirit it might be a first run - it has no other printings listed. Something interesting it has no copyright in it only the printer listed The Church Press in Glendale CA. Other than that it only lists the order information J.E. Stiles Route 2 Box 215-A Oakdale CA. The cost was $1.50 It looks like the book was never copyrighted material.

I've heard other groups use this term Servant/ Leader. I think the intent was that even though we may at times be leaders ,we should also still be servants to people . I do believe we can be both I think even leaders should be serving the Lord at least that what Romans 12:11 seems to indicate. I don't think it has to do with a strength and weakness thing as in one being superior over the other.

Thanks Psalmie for taking Time to make a difference.

I was abused in a PM once that pesky pig Psalmie super glued glued my feet to the floor and ruined my feathers with her peanut butter shampoo!

Dang Jonny now I had to pull mine, checking now , Ithink that is the one it is on. Manifest Victory track 2 I found it ! Funny when you said that the song came to mind perhaps because of the 10th Corps thing.

yep Limitless Love /Manifest Victory Didn't they do a song on that tape like that?

Hey Jonny Is that a Limitless Love song I'm hearing? I've got to keep Moving on...Keep on Moving On...

Sky look at the title to this thread A letter from John Lynn. One would assume that when writing a letter that it is common to use first person singular - used to represent the speaker or writer. This is exactly the cr*p that John was talking about in not dialoguing here. Nothing of real substance lets just pick at every word . It is an I for god's sake give it a rest if that's the best you can come up with. "Lets see Oh he said I how can I spin that to make me look like I have seen some great revelation in his words Let me expound it to you.." No hypocrisy there

A Shelter Dog asks God... Author: Joan C. Fremo Published on: July 29, 2001 Dear God, What is "Time"? I hear the sadness in the voices of workers here. They say my "Time is up", that they have to make room for yet another dog. My "Time" is up. I don't know what that means, God. I only know that my new friends are so sad, and the more I wag my tail---the harder I try to make them feel better-- -the sadder they become. I know I have heard that word "Time" before, but I don't understand. When I was younger, my people would say "Time to play!" They would throw the ball, and I would run fast. Sometimes I brought it back to them, but other times we'd end up chasing each other having fun. I remember "Time to eat". My people would put down a bowl of food, and I would enjoy dinner, wagging my tail in joy. There was also "Time for your walk". My boy would put my leash on, and we would go walking together, visiting the neighborhood and enjoying each other's company. When I was younger I thought "Time" meant fun. Or maybe Love? I don't understand. "Time" must mean something else, but how can it change, God? Before I came here, I heard my people say, "No time to feed you now, boy. Later, when I get home." Sometimes my family would forget, and there was no food in my bowl. Does "Time" mean when my belly hurts? My people said there was no time for walks. I tried to hold it all day long-- but God, I just couldn't anymore. When I finally had to go, it made my family very angry. Does "Time" means anger? Or maybe Loneliness? My family said they didn't have "Time". They didn't have time to play, or time to take me to the vet, or time to go for walks. They didn't have "Time", so they brought me here. Maybe I was right... They said they didn't have time, and if "Time" means Love, how did they lose it? Did I do something wrong? God, I think my new friends are sending me to you. Do you have "Time"? May I sit on the couch? Am I a good Dog, God? Is it "Time"? ========================================= One of the most important things we can give our Pets is "Time". The time to love them, care for them, and train them. Animal Shelters and Humane Societies across the country are filled with Pets whose families didn't have "Time". Every year, the "Time is up" for 12 million companion Pets. Do you have the "Time" to make a difference?

Hey Rich I think you have some good thoughts there as well. Speaking for myself only I have a major problem though with speaking/praying with Jesus. And yes I heard and get the whole CES thing Jesus is the head of the body we communicate with our head via neurons and so we should talk to Jesus as our head. It is a nice analogy but that and a quarter still won't get you a cup of coffee. Analogies are fine for a point but when carried to an extreme you end up in messes much like CES in now. That has been my observation with CES teachings in general tell a nice story then switch it over to” see the scripture works the same way”, not always the same . It is a small step from a personal Jesus to personal prophesies to waving hands in the air. I believe the head can communicate with the body (another analogy) in other ways as in via the spirit. Throughout his life Jesus in many records directed people to his Father. I'll spare you the quotes as I'm sure you know them. I have seen no record where he instructed anyone to pray, talk to him. Isn't that the point of John 16:25, 26? These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: To ask the Father instead of him as they had been doing for direction. I also don’t see Paul practicing or directing people to do this practice either. Which leads to can Jesus appear and talk to people? Well it appears that he did to Paul so if he did it once then I’d suppose he could do it again. An interesting point in Paul’s case he (Jesus) instituted the event not Paul. That makes sense to me Jesus chose to do it,(maybe at the direction of his Father) not someone else requesting it, or praying it from him, a big difference. Just last week I met a lady at the dog park she told me that Jesus tells her dogs which one to breed with so that they don’t cross breed. :blink:

Yes Tom I do at just over 1,900 members here allowing for the multiple name changes and posters that no longer post, just for the sake of numbers I'll use the number 1000 for actual posters here . The highest thread here on CES is at 15,532 at 13 days that is average of 1.194 views per person per day. Even assuming that there are only 500 regular posters here which I doubt ,that still only works out to to a little over 2 views a day per poster. That accounts for a few CES folks as I said. The guest figures also include anyone that does not log in as visible of which we have several I believe. It looks to me like the regulars checked out the thread a couple of times a day., but unless all those CES folks speak up I suppose we will never know for sure. Anyway it seems logical that given the topic I bet people are checking the thread a couple of times a day some more some less.

Fog As I said I am done with this debate I am however concerned for your health You may want to get checked out ,really I don't mean this as any insult but here is what you said, three times you called me a she. then you said you knew I was not. I hope you are ok really I am worried for you.

Fog call it what you want but I am done debating this issue with you. Abbie is right it is distracting to the point of the thread , we just disagree if it is worth the fight or not over credibility. I think it is for the big picture. Either way she has not taken sides her post was to me as much as you , I hardly think she sees me a victim or you the aggressor, and she is right you can read the letter either the words are there or not. In this case they are not. Finally I am not a she...just for the record ......

What lies Whitedove, please indulge us with the lies we have told about poor John Lynn...... Fog I have stated them several times as well as provided you documentation you either cant read or don't wish to. Not quite I posted first.you took exception with my post dear, and I never called you a liar I said that lies ,mistruths were stated two to be exact and I've listed them several times.

I agree Abbie John just happens to be the source this time other times it's someone else or something else. The fact still remains that credibility in discussions is paramount, when it becomes obvious that cheap shots and lies are propounded as help and concern then you have lost your audience to help. It shows a lack of objectivity. Look I live every day around Fred Phelps and his anti gay signs and hate not a day passes that I don't see his people on the street For him to say he is compassionate toward gays would be a joke, a lie, his actions prove otherwise he has no credibility. If people see lies and cheap shots here then the same will be perceived, no credibility. That helps no one. What is so hard about speaking the truth do we really need to misquote, misrepresent people? What the hell is so hard about common respect, even if you think they don't deserve it. People have names use them not cornfield Vic or der word. Talk intelligently, truthfully ,honestly and people will listen, CES is in crisis, that is for sure and John just may be a part of it at least as far as I can tell. Perhaps setting aside the we hate offshoots agenda and honest dialogue would be a start, perhaps he would let his guard down also,maybe not he sure wont as it is that I'm sure of. Honestly do you blame him look at what happens when someone posts a pro offshoot comment here. Why would he think he would get a fair shake?

Yes Tom I would ,if and when I see John or anyone else speaking that which I know to be untrue I'd call him on it in a minute. So far I have not seen John twist anyones words here, I have seen some(but not you) twist his. As I said I don't pretend to have the whole story by any means,but I can read what someone says and see if it is misquoted later on. I have not disputed any other points here. It's simple don't put words in peoples mouths that they did not say and you have no problem from me.

Abbie Truth is foundational to help anyone as long as we allow lies to go unchecked there is no credibility here. No one goes for help where they know that the one suposedly helping is a liar.

[ Fog I'll say this once more real slow John has a job, a business that he gets pay from ,money you know green stuff. If someone says that he does not and is dependent on CES as some have that would be untrue as I said verifiable even that makes the remark dishonest as it is a lie. The same with the comment that he said anyone here is unworthy a lie he did not say that it is also verifiable in his letter posed on the first page, as in the fact that the words are not there, anywhere, absent even.

Gee Fog I'm glad you know everything about John's marriage to make these decisions why did you not share it with us sooner?....... as in before someone else told you about it? Two sides to every story I heard one. I'll wait for the other of course I like truth not one sided preconceived opinions. Again I think you missed a part of my words Quote:It is pretty common that people want to put forth their limited time and energy into something that they feel will be of benefit, most don't look for things that they feel will be a waste of their time. Also most won't go where they feel that all they will get is flack and hang out, I doubt you would either? which as you know I'm sure was my point. Excluding the percent of non Christian who used to be and no longer wish to be, and the percent that no longer want anything to do with any offshoots. That does not leave John much to work with left I'd say. It's a pretty easy concept fog people spend time an effort where they think it does the most benefit, there is very little here for him. If you don't get it sorry....

I never made any excuses for John I spoke only to the dishonest remarks concerning him ,that has nothing to do with an excuse it's called a fact. He is not dependent on CES for a job or income as others have implied and he has worked a day in his life as others have correctly stated. . You need to get your facts straight before you challenge me. That is how you proved the point it is untrue and it is verifiable that it it is, and it is not the only thing either. Untruth makes posters uncreditable that's common sense fog, if you are a liar then people wont listen to you because you lie also conmon sense. So let me get this straight because there is spiritual darkness in the world anyone has the right to take others words out of context? These have to do with each other HOW? Merely stating a fact no excuse, no defense and your right he does not need me or anyone else defending him. But the fact is he never said he would not dialogue that is a lie. I will correct untruth, lies misinformation as I see fit. That is far different thing than defenses or excuses look up the difference in a dictionary.

QUOTE(WhiteDove @ Dec 27 2006, 02:33 PM) I would guess that he would rather spend what time he has in helping those that he feels have a desire to be helped rather than arguing with those that have no desire to be a part of what he has to offer, and don't care to know the facts before they run their mouth like they are some sort of authority on his life. Like he helped his wife? First you isolated a part of a sentence and then did so out of the context of my reply . It had nothing to do with his Exwife. If you want to take a shot at John do so on your own without twisting my words! For the record I believe that John should have supported his wife also from what I have read, but I also may not know the whole story. It is pretty common that people want to put forth their limited time and energy into something that they feel will be of benefit, most don't look for things that they feel will be a waste of their time. Also most won't go where they feel that all they will get is flack and hang out, I doubt you would either? which as you know I'm sure was my point. Excluding the percent of non christian who used to be and no longer wish to be, and the percent that no longer want anything to do with any offshoots. That does not leave John much to work with left I'd say. Which prompted my conclusion that I would guess that he would rather spend what time he has in helping those that he feels have a desire to be helped rather than arguing with those that have no desire to be a part of what he has to offer, and don't care to know the facts before they run their mouth like they are some sort of authority on his life. Thanks your post proves my point.

Tom I have no dog in this fight so to speak. I have no affiliation with CES. And I don't disagree with most of what you said. But much of what you said is in regard to the issue at hand ,I have no first hand knowledge of it so I intentionally refrained from acting as if I do, that's me. I have read what has been posted obviously there is a bit of a gulf between the parties involved which leads me to conclude that the truth most likely lies somewhere in between. I've said before I won't pass judgment on someone or something based on internet fodder, it is unreliable and often agenda based. If you reread my post the context of my comment was in regard to those just popping off making .... up without regard to whether it is true or not. Because of this situation I would agree that there is no point for him to speak here why should he? If one wants respect it might be wise to give it, making snide remarks, talking about something you no nothing about is not doing that. That has a lot to do with how much respect and time a person puts into things. I'd feel the same way, respect me we can talk insult me why waste the time no point it is obvious that they don’t care. I agree 100% with you that in this situation all need to come clean, if it ends up here fine, but I don't think they owe this board a explanation. they do owe their supporters one as you said. I would disagree that a great number of CES/STFI folks have been looking in on this forum, I see a few but in terms of their numbers it looks like a few to me. There is nothing John could say that would please the crowd here and you know it, or any other offshoot leader for that matter. Do you go places that you are not welcome? really come on ..... why would one do that? Anything he says and you know how it is on the net, would be picked apart and twisted. Don't think so? Read his letter again nowhere does he say that anyone here is unworthy of dialogue. Not what he said, do you see anywhere where he said anyone was unworthy? I don't, and people wonder why he won't speak here? He also never said he would not dialogue with people he simply asked to know who he was speaking with I find that a reasonable request in the internet age. I've said it before it makes the detractors of this site job very easy to dismiss this board as gossip, and unreliable when you prove their point for them. If we want GreaseSpot to be a help to others then integrity and honesty must be at the for front not jabs, disrespect and lies. Apparently not Tom I think the phrase used in a few posts was "he's never worked a day in his life". Nor does this post sound like they have his employ straight. At this point, I wonder if his survival depends on continued endorsement of the organization. What's he gonna do if it folds? Sell books? I think he's painted himself in a corner of sorts..

John will continue to do what he does now I'd suppose run his SAT business. I bet he will do just fine with or without CES. He might write books. So What? It's a free market they will either fail or succeed in that market. I understand his choice not to spend time discussing things that will end up changing nothing. What would be the point? Most of the people here have no interest in CES as in being a part of it. I expect he is busy with his own stuff and GreaseSpot is not a place that is friendly to exway offshoots. What would be to gain in pages of arguments and cheap shots? Point in case it has been said more than a few times that John has a outside business and is not paid by CES and yet it seems that posts like the above still continue. Very Few want to get the facts straight before they assume things in their posts it's much easier to just say whatever. I would guess that he would rather spend what time he has in helping those that he feels have a desire to be helped rather than arguing with those that have no desire to be a part of what he has to offer, and don't care to know the facts before they run their mouth like they are some sort of authority on his life.

Cool One I don't share your theory on triggers, nor do I see classes as a knee jerk reaction to fix some problem. in life. Granted they could be utilized that way but I personally have not seen that to be the case among exways. Master the basics ? What is that? Who has attained that level? I hope I am ever learning, which is why classes are a useful tool, for review, because we are old and forgetful, and because they may just have something that I may have not considered. Another plus they can keep you rooted in scripture so that one can not be fooled by unscriptural ideas and presentations. They can give you the means to make right biblical choices as opposed to flowing with the crowd and ending up in a mess years later. Each to their own I suppose. Now back to the question at hand................