WhiteDove

First off Welcome Gregory,thanks for pinch hitting for me while I was away last week hard at work. It's been a busy week with work and additionally I had a board meeting to chair for the dog park, so I have not had much more than a chance to look in. By the way last I knew. Renate, Cathy and Helen former Gartmore staffers were employed by Word Promotions in the Scotland office still. Well this thread has taken a few turns since I was here last so I'll say to start I'll abstain from commentary on Chris Geer's personal life as it is not relevant to the conversation that being the WIGP class. I try to refrain unlike some posters here from making comments regarding someone when I have no accurate information to support the remark. When I responded to David’s post of Johns site link I made the following comment: "While not a bad review overall, in fairness I would point out that while Dr Juedes is entitled to his opinion he does present some erroneous facts and implications in his assessment." I still stand by that assessment. I fully expected a response from John and he did not fail me. My intent at that point was to dialog with him via the message system and he could make any changes to his article that he saw fit. Due to my slow response time he opened the topic up for discussion here so I will respond in kind here as well. First as WordWolf mentioned, and he was correct, John has offered to correct any incorrect information on the site. I'll take him at his word on that. As I stated I do believe that overall the review was not bad work or inaccurate as a whole. At least more so, than not, I do maintain that some of the facts and implications were however not correct. . . The first being Christopher Geer was more directly responsible for splintering The Way International than any one person. While many TWI leaders chafed under the inept hand of TWI's new young president, L. Craig Martindale, Geer forced the splintering by accusing TWI trustees of severe error and staging a coup. A review of the letters tapes and other correspondence over the years from Chris will quickly show that his intention was not to form a coup rather to affect change within the trustees of the Way International. He was consistent in his support and his dissatisfaction with those that proposed any sort of move in that direction, the data will stand on its own. Absent is any evidence to support Johns claim. There is ample to the contrary. And had he wanted to stage a coup it could have been easily done at Corps week 1986 while the trustees were lost in fog land (blubbering their eyes out) about on the main stage asking for forgiveness, he could have walked in to any position he wanted at that point, He consistently supported them for several years. In fact that is/was a complaint with many exwayfers that he would not start some political overthrow of the trustees as they thought he should. Failure to address the problems at hand in the end were the cause for any splintering, and any blame for that can be laid squarely at the feet of the great accuser he is behind the division in the one body. He is most responsible, beyond that there are plenty of other men in line ahead of Chris. John gives these men way too much credit. Now as to: Actually the subject was:Every one of Geer's topics in WIGP comes from PFAL," and other inaccuracies in John’s article. I disputed that. John then corrected his statement to Every chapter topic in WIGP comes from PFAL I responded that it was not the same thing, It is not. There are many topics in the class that are not chapter headings I think the word he was searching for there is Many, that would be a factually accurate description. American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source top•ic (tŏp'ĭk) Pronunciation Key n. 1. The subject of a speech, essay, thesis, or discourse. 2. A subject of discussion or conversation. 3. A subdivision of a theme, thesis, or outline. See Synonyms at subject. 4. Linguistics A word or phrase in a sentence, usually providing information from previous discourse or shared knowledge, that the rest of the sentence elaborates or comments on. Also called theme. By definition one could have a topic (the subject of a speech, essay, thesis or discourse.) and not have it be a chapter topic from the book. Thus Every one of his topics covered was not covered in PFAL Many or Most that would be a factually accurate description. WIGP was always promoted as an expansion of PFAL no piracy there it is an extension. If you remember from POP the following "I think my greatest regret is the Advanced Class. I never did a good job of teaching it on film. Now it is up to one of you to get it done; I won't be here to do it. page 39 In the process of work on the Advanced Class it came to light that there was first a need to correct a large bit of the Foundational as well as Intermediate classes. Chris views the class as just that getting the job done, an extension of the original not a new class so to speak, which if one believes what he wrote was at the request of VPW. It's hard to pirate what you have been asked, or at least been approved to do. That puts to rest the claim that WIGP is PFAL piracy another error. Gregory has already handled some of the other errors in the article so I won’t belabor the points. While at first glance I can see why some would think it to be the same but having sat through it is apparent that much is not the same. And certainly not every topic comes from PFAL although much does. One such topic which is a chapter topic as well is Rights, Privileges and Abilities of the Sons of God. There is not companion chapter in PFAL while there was a chapter - Knowing your Sonship rights, absent were the topics Abilities and Privileges. Additionally while still on the subject of Sonship rights ,so that would qualify as a duplicate subject as per Johns point of view an addition was made as not five as we had previously learned but reflected into the class was the fact that there were more as many pointed out over the years prior. The result was five (as in main Categories) but not necessarily limited to five, as it's clear from scripture that there are more. Christian Riches Now does also not appear in PFAL titles anywhere if you use John’s second definition of what he meant Chapter topics. I understand Johns point; there is much that is the same I'd fall short of saying EVERY though. I don't believe that is an accurate statement. If one would like a better explanation from the horse’s mouth so to speak I would refer you to GWT (Gartmore Weekly Tape) #199 there is a considerable explanation of the class on the tape by Chris as to why he did it and some of the content. Wrong! the whole reason that there was a WIGP Class to begin with was because he did assess his teachings and found that there were problems with them. And since that time there has been ongoing work to correct them especially in the field of believing. Now: Agreed but these events have not changed and they were never at one time correct,and in this day and age a website is a easy thing to update if one was interested in maintaining truth in their words. Actually I do! having read his rather lengthy paper on A Biblical Perspective on Computers, Electronic Learning and Cyber - Realities I do think Chris has a definite agenda and I was being quite fair in my assessment, Although I don't necessarily support all of his viewsbut they are his and he has a right to them. Never say Never but I would not hold your breath waiting for a website. Agreed as I said earlier he confirmed the same to me I'll accept that, time will tell if it holds true. My intent was to do just that via the IM system but that intent has now changed since his invitation to discuss it in open format. I'm not the only GreaseSpotter to question his writings as evident from his own site he has had some dialog with Research Geek on at least one of John’s articles. I just have to wonder why someone that was in comparison with most of us exway people (involved with the Way for less than a New York minute) so to speak has such an interest in the Way. Yeah I read the site so many have been so hurt. Like that never happened anywhere else why only the Way? What about the Moonies, JW’s. Krishna’s ,Catholics, or even his own denomination? No, not a peep there, only on the Way! I guess he missed that hurt or if he did come across any it did not inspire him to pick up a pen and write even a few words. If the concern is so many hurt I wager that all combined there is far more total among those groups and all the others than the Way. So why focus on only the Way? It is no secret at least to me that John’s denomination was a major force behind the movement against the Way for many years, as well as the deprogramming movement. On a personal level in our area we had many run ins with Lutheran church members simply because we rented a house by one of their churches. We ended up having several police inspections at our home due to them. As well as a investigation by the KBI which turned up nothing, Zero much to their dismay. There were many meetings concerning the way at the church and I believe that John is still continuing in that line of work. Yes I do believe that his interest is driven by his denomination and their dislike for The Way. I do question why he fails to look at the hurt caused by his own church and their doctrines like worship of a three headed God. And yes I do look for agendas when considering a plethora of articles with error. Some people want to see negatives so they accept anything at face value I prefer truth. Which could be pro or con, but at least truth? Nope it is no secret that his denomination has a vendetta against The Way and apparently now any of its offshoots (as some would term them.) One would be less than wise not to filter any propaganda through a truth filter before taking it at face value. * typo edit*

The Belize BRC recently purchased the Eternally Blessed Bookstore in CA and their website rights. They did not need two webstores I suppose. You can find them Here

Ha Excie of course not they are too busy shaking down the joint for those cigarette thieves. Fireworks inquisition is scheduled for next week.

Gee I must have missed this announcement somehow but Congratulations to you Raf. Ha! Enjoy you last day of independence Raf.........

No I would not support charges for freedom of religious views, or for being Catholic. I would like to see charges for other crimes that have been committed though, as opposed to moving clergy around in a shell game hoping that no one notices.

John you would have to ask Chris about his capabilities in Greek I can't speak for him. Having heard some 362 Gartmore tapes as well as various classes and several years of journals I believe that from all indications he could easily handle the Greek work in a foundational class on his own . I think you misread my statement, the point was that even if he was not able on his own to do so, which I believe he would be. There were others that could have done the work so it still would have been included. In other words there would have been no absence for you to form a probably about. Your quote" Geer throws around fewer Greek terms, probably because, like most of Wierwille's hand-picked leadership, he lacked the seminary training in Biblical languages and interpretation that Wierwille had." says that there is a lack of Greek terms which you attribute to his lack of ability. Having around others who could have made up for that and supplied all the terms needed. Who would know? There would have been no lack. Had he wanted more Greek in the class he had two options one have someone do the work and use it without reference two he could have referred to Walter and the fact that he or others confirmed the Greek work as VPW did on occasion. Why leave it out when he had other options? The fact is it's not there because he purposely omitted it not because he or Walter who by the way is another of those VPW "hand picked leadership' who certainly does not fit in your guess concerning ability. There were others as well on that class faculty. Which by the way does not mean that the teacher did not have the ability either its smart to have others input and thoughts even the best minds make human mistakes with all the ability in the world. Having others does not support his ability or lack . Regarding topics John I see you changed your quote..... like Eve you added a word Every topic and every chapter topic as you now phrase it, are not the same thing. There are many topics that are not chapter headings I think the word you are searching for there is Many or Most that would be a factually accurate description.As long as we are doing this here now I also take exception with this as well Glimpses of Truth is available on request , it has nothing to do with following I know lots of people who get his letter who are part of other groups or none at all for that matter. I even know some GreaseSpotters who get it..... Gasp are they followers? In fact one would be hard pressed to find a following at all for that matter. I have received the thing for years and I certainly have never been requested to follow anyone, nor have I been asked for any monetary donation at any time either. What was your purpose in ascribing followers to him that do not exist? Was it to give him a cult following so you could portray him as a leader? He sure is doing a p*ss poor job of being a MOG leader if he hasn't even let us know we are supposed to be following him and sending our money his way Really......... These are the kind of subtle trigger words that lace your article they imply things that are not factual or true and I failed to see anywhere where you noted that accordinly.

The Wall Kansas ( Leftoverture) I'm woven in a fantasy, I can't believe the things I see The path that I have chosen now Has led me to a wall And with each passing day I feel a little more like something dear was lost It rises now before me, A dark and silent barrier between, All I am, and all that I would ever want be It's just a travesty, Towering, marking off the boundaries my spirit Would erase To pass beyond is what I seek I fear that I may be too weak And those are few who've seen it Through to glimpse the other side, The promised land is waiting like a maiden that is soon to be a bride The moment is a masterpiece, The weight of indecision's in the air It's standing there, the symbol and the sum of all that's me It's just a travesty, Towering, blocking out the light and blinding me I want to see Gold and diamonds cast a spell, It's not for me I know it well The riches that I seek Are waiting on the other side There's more that I can measure in the treasure of the love that I can find And though it's always been with me, I must tear down the Wall and let it be All I am, and all that I was ever meant to be, in harmony Shining true and smiling back at all who wait to cross There is no loss.......... The Wall

Truth has nothing to do with how one feels It is true because it stands the test for truth some of which are 1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth. 2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement. 3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths. 4. the state or character of being true. 5. actuality or actual existence. Notice lacking also is "I like the way it agrees with my personal dislike for _______ "so that makes it truth, and therein lies the problem. That's why eyes not emotion is necessary to find truth. Also lacking in truth is any mention of peoples reasons for or not for doing anything. Why? and truth are not related. Why someone does something or says something has nothing to do with whether it is true or not, again truth must be based on items like 1-5 above (See definition of truth) The judge does not care why you chose to break the law in court only if you did. You assume wrong again.......My remarks had nothing to do with where this points, it has to do with facts not everyone makes decisions based on personal hate here or emotion. I unlike you could care less where anything seems to point My interest is in line by line facts are they true or are they not (see truth above) I'll discuss this with John as I can but here are just for you Rascal just a couple of non facts Not true many certainly, not every. The conclusions in much of the Word Promotions material arrives at a different place than VPW Speculation ,a guess not fact or truth. The truth is he does not know why, hence the word PROBABLY. He assumes to the negative that Chris is unlearned because that is the focus of his site to look for the negative, one could also present a case that it was by design that Greek was omitted in many cases due to the complaints that The way often threw around Greek words to look intellectual which those not having a background in Greek could not refute so it was accepted. Perhaps he wanted to explain things in simple English....... Also he failed to take into consideration that on the research staff for this class work were people that had the expertise in Greek had Chris wanted to use it but failed to have the personal research ability , like Walter Cummins and Maria Shriver sp? who speaks Greek better than most speak English. So you see Rascal I deal in facts/ truth not how I feel makes it right.

Suda Here are some of the GS images you have to go through the secret door under booth #5 to get there. Right Here PS don't steal the pig..... Psalmie gets pie happy when you steal her little piggies.

Some people think OJ is innocent after looking at the court record..... Shrug Their agenda guides them as well. Eyes not emotion make all the difference in how things look!

John I received your PM request for the information, while I'm not sure of the value of the effort as I doubt it will affect any change of mind for either of us. I will try to get a moment to reply to you. Our difference may be in interpretation of written data, I'll consider that as well. I'll send my thoughts on the matter to you via the PM system for your consideration when I can. Thanks for your patience.

Personally I always look for agendas I do care about them, It makes a huge difference how you approach a topic and what group you talk with plays a a major roll in the fair and balance of your end product. If you set out to look for bad in something and limit your material to those who also have a desire to show the bad then you have a skewed product in the end.

."Linda I was there sometime in the mid eighties visiting, spent some time in the rec room the wood booths were nice. We stayed as I remember in founders hall by the chapel which Johnny T arranged for us. I had forgotten until you mentioned the rec room but it reminded me we donated four nice pool cues to the campus as a thank you for the stay. I thought it was such a nice room but the cues sucked I think one maybe had a tip left on it. We thought that would be a nice thing for the Corps to enjoy as opposed to a monetary gift that would be absorbed. Much like Emporia here it is sad that all the work so many did was lost forever. Somewhere I think I still have a bunch of slides of the campus.

I had a cheap set of pans that I cooked with for many years, they held up fine and have a new second life to this day, but about ten years ago I started buying a new set of the enamel on steel Chantal pans. I had always admired the quality and decided to suck it up and start a set. I bought the chili red not only do they look great but they cook great. Of course I can only afford beans and weenies now to pay for them but what a job they do on those . Chantal

David While not a bad review overall, in fairness I would point out that while Dr Juedes is entitled to his opinion he does present some erroneous facts and implications in his assessment.

While Future Considerations did publish many posthumous articles, in contrast Glimpses of Truth articles are authored by Chris. Some have been edited from the Gartmore teachings.

BLESS OUR PARENTS WHO DRUGGED US!!! The other day, someone at a store in our town read that a methamphetamine lab had been found in an old farmhouse in the adjoining county and he asked me a rhetorical question, "Why didn't we have a drug problem when we were growing up?" I replied: I had a drug problem when I was young. I was drug to church on Sunday morning. I was drug to church for weddings and funerals. I was drug to family reunions and community socials no matter the weather. I was drug by my ears when I was disrespectful to adults. I was also drug to the woodshed when I disobeyed my parents, told a lie, brought home a bad report card, did not speak with respect, spoke ill of the teacher or the preacher or if I didn't put forth my best effort in everything that was asked of me. I was drug to the kitchen sink to have my mouth washed out with soap if I uttered a profane four letter word. I was drug out to pull weeds in mom's garden and flowerbeds and cockleburs out of dad's fields. I was drug to the homes of family, friends and neighbors to help out some poor soul who had no one to mow the yard, repair the clothesline or chop some firewood; and, if my mother had ever known that I took a single dime as a tip for this kindness, she would have drug me back to the woodshed. Those drugs are still in my veins; and they affect my behavior in everything I do, say and think. They are stronger than cocaine, crack or heroin; and, if today's children had this kind of drug problem... America would be a better place.

"Glimpses of Truth" is available for free upon request at this address Word Promotions P.O. Box 116 South Casco ME 04077 USA PS it is not a monthly Journal - it is when you see it in your mailbox it's here.

Well Belle it does have internet, a Coffee bar and lots of bed space perhaps you would like to buy it when you get paid next week and throw a GreaseSpot party. Not to mention all the fortune you will make off the "Southern Belle" Water sales

Thomas - Chris does not live in Bangor

Not too tough........ Here

Nope definitely not here in Kansas.........unless he is living in the love nest at the top of Anderson Library

Hey Bumpy I thought this was going to be about Queen

Chris lives in Maine About now I'd guess he is probably sleeping I just heard this week that he has a book set for sale "In the Footsteps of Patriarchs, Prophets, Believers, and Kings two Vol. $30.00 US

Another reason not to wear your pants like that. Here Then there was the one where the guy tripped and shot his accomplice in the a** on the way out of the store after a robery....