WhiteDove

Not quite how the story went but it's your fiction you can write it anyway you like.

[quote name='doojable' WhiteDove - I have was not referring to you in the last post you quoted. In fact, I even said so. I don't think you're a Pharisee, I do think that you are sticking to your model a little too aggressively - but you have said that that is what you need to do for your life. I'm not sure I know where the "pieces that don't fit in the spaces" are for you. I know that you don't have an eyewitness - but you do have expert testimony. Here in the forums it would be pointless to ask for an eyewitness, because your standard for such would have to not include the internet (I think I have that right.) Furthermore, there is usually not an eyewitness in rape. On the other hand, you have said that you are inclined to believe VP did do these things. I knew you were not. But thanks anyway. Your wrong though we do have an eyewitness according to (Catcup) she said so, right after she verified everything.

Sometimes it's not about being a Pharisee... it's about making sure that you're not wrong. I have no idea what has transpired in WhiteDove's life and I won't pretend to. The following does not pertain to him: Someone I've known for a long time reverts to logic and fact on a regular basis. The reason? (And this is the reason HE gives for the way he is.) When he was in first grade, he was answering a question in class and the teacher said, "Be quiet! You don't know what you're talking about!" The end result is that this person does whatever he can to be "right" - including bullying someone with logic. See that's the thing there is no right or wrong in this case no good no bad it's just facts do they prove the burden of truth? Or not? - Truth -a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: Stories are like puzzles they have many parts or pieces each contributes what is what it can to the picture when all the pieces are together you have the picture if the pieces however don't fit in the spaces you have a problem. I don't feel right or wrong why would I it is only like a math equation does A = B there is no feeling in that. I paid the price of Solitude, But at last I'm out of Debt - Dylan

Oh well I did not want to go to class anyway I guess I was not really trying to sway the jury or win the case just explaining why I believe what I do...........

Actually the dictionary.com I believe do you doubt their definition?

quote name='George Aar' Just curious WD, what exactly are you looking for as "proof"? Semen samples maybe? Video tape? Tokins of virginity? Obviously the likelyhood of any such "hard" evidence showing up at this late date is beyond remote, so I guess you're safe in your stalwart stance. Kudos for your bravery! Nevermind that the unstated reply to the victims here is that THEY"RE LYING. Nah, just ignore 'em. After all, where's the DNA tests, the fingernail scrapings, and soiled underwear? I don't have an answer for you George I think some things in life we will never have an answer for I'm ok with that, not much I could do anyway if I wasn't. It's a little Way Brained to expect a definitive answer for everything in life now isn't it? Now Alfakat had a suggestion back a few pages he thought numbers was the answer and had a few dozen counted even. But he only wanted to count votes from Waydale and GreaseSpot I can't for the life of me imagine why Scratch Scratch..... <-----Dove scratching his head in wondermentIt may have something to do with this that Groucho posted Maybe he wanted to make sure we had a fair and level playing field you know where the mission was only to expose the evils of TWI :blink: Now me if I was to do something like that (not that I think that IS the answer) but if I was Golly Gee I'd poll, OH say every one of the roughly 100,000 people that walked through TWI and see what the numbers really thought. Personally I would not think that would be the solution but you would have a more fair and balanced poll though. Really though George I think you are right it will lay in the unknown category can't prove can't disprove not enough facts to reach a conclusion. That does not make anyone a liar just inconclusive evidence.

Doojable (see I got it right sorry I thought you went by Doojie) Nope that pretty well sums it up , Oh except for that I'm not a VPW apologist.... And you may be right ,perhaps I should look into a new career. So Far So Good Carry On

Yeah Tom your definition is concerning the word deny Deny what? Opinion or truth there is a difference Yes you are right by your definition I do deny opinion to deny Truth is well another mattter. truth add another qualifier to the mix 1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth. 2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement. 3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths. NO I don't deny a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like only information that is anoymous posted over a faceless internet or that is not proven according to the definition of truth. In other Words OPINION BS not true you could have asked rather than ASSUME or you just could have really read the gazillions of posts where in detail I have disclosed my reasons.

Really do you think posting that I am afraid was respectful?

Really? What pray tell what would I possibly be afraid of? I'm sure your just dying to extol some more of your all-knowing wisdom

Tom here is a excerpt from my post to Garth on pg 25 I know you seem to be having a problem with your glasses and seeing and all.so I found it for you. I think I missed the deny part there Excuse me but I have NEVER asked or as you put it hammered anyone for proof just stated that I did not have it personally, and yes I have heard accounts by former disgruntled exwayfers who have bones to pick that do not wash. I have no problem with believing that VPW could have done any of these things just no proof if and I when that happens that will be a different day. As it stands today insufficient data to decide......... Bottom line I trust no one without hard cold facts, I would not trust an account by my own sister without it. I might like to support it ,but that's the difference between us you are willing to accept things on emotion I'm not, family, friends is irrelevant, facts ,proof are not. (I might trust my dog as he is not human. Maybe.) I'm done trusting people and their words on emotion been there done that it did not work, People lie! OR at best misspeak. I heard for better for worse once it was a lie! I heard we love you once . It was a lie! . I'm darn sure not trusting people that have predisposed attitude about what they are making a case against .

quote name='Tom Strange' WHITE DOVE, OLDIES (AND OTHER VEEPEE WORSHIPERS): CURRENT TWI LEADERSHIP DOES NOT DENY THESE THINGS HAPPENED, WHY DO YOU? I walked away from TWI after the first couple of hints of something not being right. I didn't even know of all of the sexual predator stuff, there were just some things that I knew and heard (from the top leadership) that "didn't sit right" with me. I guess you could say it was that still small voice, my conscience, whatever. Years go by (about 20). In all that time I still carried the bogus thought of "TWI is still the best thing going"... "they've got a better handle on THE TRUTH than anyone else"... why would I go anywhere else for my "Christian" learning? Of course, these thoughts had been drilled into my brain during all of the years I was a "faithful follower of the way"... Then one day I thought "hmmm, maybe I'll see if there's a twig around here somewhere. maybe things have changed"... I googled... and lo and behold I get all of this information coming at me about veepee and LCM... I get all of this information coming at me about people being treated like chattel, people suffering all sorts of mental, verbal and physical and sexual abuse... All sorts of things... nothing at all like what I remembered from my days as an "innie"... BUT ...a lot like I thought things could have progressed to in my worst and wildest imagination. I was really, really shocked. I didn't want to think that these things could have happened. How could they? ...not to MY ministry! Even though I'd left, those feelings were still strong because of the amount of my life I had invested... I DID NOT WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE OR EVEN CONSIDER THAT SOMETHING I HAD GIVEN MY LIFE TO FOR ALL OF THOSE YEARS COULD BE SO WRONG... BECAUSE THAT WOULD MEAN THAT I WAS WRONG FOR ALL OF THOSE YEARS, THAT WOULD MEAN (in my mind) THAT I'D HAVE TO ADMIT THAT 'I WAS DUPED'... And I certainly didn't want to admit that... not me. SO... I thought, let me ask someone in current TWI leadership about these things. I need to know if there's any truth to any of these things I've heard. Just like you White Dove, Oldies and the rest of you veepee apologists... I DIDN'T WANT TO BELIEVE OR THINK THAT THINGS COULD HAVE GOTTEN SO BAD. So... I went to current TWI leadership, pretty high up in the old tree I'd think, folks that had been around since the early to mid seventies... and you know what? When I presented to them all of the things I'd heard about: veepee & LCM and all of the sex stuff, plagiarism, M&A, POP, etc ... everything I could think of... one by one I sat with them and asked "what about this?" and then "what about this?" and then "what about this?" And they answered. To each one of the things that I brought up they answered... and the answer was always "YES. That happened." THEY NEVER DENIED IT. They didn't like that it had happened but they didn't deny it. They rationalized their 'staying in' with "we're all human and we all make mistakes, just look at the Catholic Church" type of responses when I'd ask them "how can you still be involved in TWI?" Their position was (and is) that they're remaining loyal to 'the ministry that taught them the Word' and that they were going to try to continue to do the best they can. That's their choice. I don't understand it, or see any logic in it, but that's their choice... But the important thing (to me) is that THEY DO NOT DENY that these things happened. Current TWI leadership... they DO NOT DENY that these things happened. Current TWI leadership does not deny that these things happened yet you folks do (White Dove, Oldiesman, etal)... and you continue to discount the lives and hearts of those that were hurt, abused and molested. That's insane... YOU ARE NOT 'OUT' OF TWI YET WHITE DOVE, OLDIES, ETC Tom you do not know me from John Doe DON'T ASSUME THAT YOU DO! IF IT MAKES YOU FEEL ALL BETTER TO PLACE ME IN A BOX AND LABEL IT ALL NEAT AND TIDY VPW APOLOGIST OR WIERWILLE WORSHIPER THEN HAVE AT IT .THAT MAKES YOU LESS INTELLIGENT THAN ONE OF YOUR SNOW CONES. IT ALSO PROVES THAT YOU CAN'T READ OR REFUSE TO READ. FOR YEARS I HAVE CONSISTENTLY ADDRESSED THIS MISNOMER I KNOW IT MUST BE DISCOMFORTING TO YOU WHEN YOU CAN NOT ONLY SEE GUILTY WHEN SPEAKING ABOUT THE WAY. I ON THE OTHER HAND PREFER TO TAKE EACH ACCOUNT ON A ONE BY ONE BASIS AND THINK, CONSIDER EACH POINT I KNOW IT CAN BE A TOUGH JOB AND ONE DOES HAVE TO GASP..... THINK A LITTLE .....BUT THINKING IS A GOOD THING..... REALLY You also failed to read anywhere on this thread or others where I ever denied anything concerning this subject yet you consistently claim I have.. I have on the other hand said more times than I care to that I have insufficient data, information, facts to render a judgment either way. I also have gone out of my way to point out that there is certainly a possibility that these accounts could be true. I guess you missed that as well. I don't accept unprovable information as truth plain and simple whatever the subject. and while your lecturing me on my morality consider this: I left the way on my own choice when it was clear that the direction was not going well It was a simple Biblical choice, was it scriptural or not? Not because I had no other choice as some who would most likely still be there in their fog had they not been pushed out. I did not wait around because I had to prepare, or because I needed to build a career I did not hang around for some silly job or status. I did not hang around and promote evil while admitting that I knew it was wrong, but still did it anyway. I did not stay around only until evil visited my door one day and forced me to leave, or because someone finally melted my poor little face one to many times. A monkey could do that that's self preservation not a conscious Biblical choice. It amazes me that these people who consciously did evil , refered to us as possessed, gangrene or worse and admittedly did things contrary to scripture now seem to have some great moral judgment ability when it comes to others. I stood on the truth that I knew then I'll do the same today to the best of my ability. It's my life and I am accountable for it Not you or your judgment of me.

Dot your wrong about that I am fiercely loyal to truth! 1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the truth. 2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement. 3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths. 4. the state or character of being true. 5. actuality or actual existence.

Dot I could answer your questions but honestly you would not like the answers, so whats the point? just more fodder for discussion and believe me there would be discussion. I am not changing how I accept ideas into my mind for anyone, it's my mind and heart and I'll guard it as I see fit. I already explained the process a few posts back , it's what it is, it works fine for me. I'm done trusting people blindly and my life is healthier for it. You can live and function your life as you feel you need to as well. It's nothing personal everyone gets the same deal, if you want me to believe what you are selling you better have the facts to back it up.

I never do that sort of thing and don't plan on starting now I am perfectly happy with my comments sorry if you accept things blindly I don't.

Hey alphkat its my life and I can accept or not anything I want.. I could care less what you think of me by the way F U

[quote name=Lifted Up' Dove, Yesterday morning Pond's quick response to my post included the statement, "no one is trustworthy in life? that is not going to get the job done at some point we just have to take a risk and decide for our own self who it will be or not" Some people, including I...and including you on this thread...have attached importance to first hand testimony from real live non anonymous people. from an earlier post of yours... _______________________________________________________ Is M's account not an eyewitness account? (She was there!) It may be it may not be it is words on a screen by an anonymous person on the internet that showed up on a anti way site. No I do not accept everything I read on the net as truth it may be the gospel truth it may be biased BS who can know? My point was that some who claimed to be able to verify the eyewitness account seem to be lacking in the story as being a eyewitness as I see it at best yes M would be an eyewitness I see no verification of the story by anyone else. other than second hand info and opinion. ________________________________________________________ You make a big point about not trusting anonymous accounts on the net and/or second hand information and opinions, and not trusting accounts where there is a lack of an eyewitess. Good. I have dome the same. By saying this, we are both therefore attaching great importance to real first hand accounts. When we do that, we are ready to accept the credibility of such accounts or we are lying hypocrites. Many (too many ) years ago, in school, I had a teacher who showed a picture, I think it was on a bus or something and there were several people in the picture, and someone was wielding a knife, and there were other details I don't remember. Anyway, the teacher had one person look for a while at the picture, then describe it in as much detail as he could to someone else who had not seen the picture, who in turn relayed the description to someone else and about five time over that way. Of course by the time the last person related the description, it had completely changed. So when we trust a first hand account, there is a lot of risks that we eliminate. Now add this: If someone knows who you are, and you are telling them about a terrible personal experience that happened to YOU, exposing yourself to personal attacks and questions, but you go ahead and do it anyway, I think that falls into the category of trustable if ANYTHING does. Or, before you bring this up, if it DIDNT happen to you, would you lie about something like that and expose yourself for no reason? We have some who proclaim that this is not a court of law, that our standards for finding out what really happened don't have to be that stringent, with those same people usually pointing out that the volume of talk overcomes this. My point is, from your reply...and I thank you for making it...you dont seem ready to accept even the first hand accounts from live non anonymous people that you earlier post attached so much importance to. In other words, why the talk about the accounts being second hand and anonymous if a personal first person non anonymous account of abuse wouldnt make any difference to you? I guess I can see why I get some responses to my efforts such as I described in my earlier post. I'm not sure I understand your questions but here goes Let me make this easy No one is trustworthy in life thats my new rule it comes from experiance not emotion in other words it does not matter to me if it is family, friend , someone I like ,or dislike that is irrelevant. They are all human you can present any account, story you want to me I'll assscess it the same if it is logical then it stands if there are holes and or questions in the account then you will need proof before I will accept it period . Thats the burden of truth. I don't care really if the account is firsthand secondhand or thirdhand it all gets the same treatment does it pass the critera for truth. You dont seem ready to accept even the first hand accounts from live non anonymous people that you earlier post attached so much importance to. In other words, why the talk about the accounts being second hand and anonymous if a personal first person non anonymous account of abuse wouldnt make any difference to you? It is pretty commen knowledge that the farther you get away from the source the more margin for error in a story there is, logically then the closer to the source the less chance there is. So in consideration there is a slightly more creditable level in accounts shared by the person involved. That does not mean they get a free pass from the criteria for truth though, they still must pass the test, as I indicated above. The reason anonymous accounts are more problematic are that it becomes more difficult to gets answers when looking for mystery person X as opposed to someone who would sign their name. In other words it is a lot easier to find Suzie Smith than Space cadet X. As you mentioned if one is willing to sign their name to something as well ,there is a level of responsibility to the work as it has your name on it. In this case I do understand the need for some not to do so or at least the reluctance to do so.

Exacty my point Suda they don't call themselves eyewitnesses when in fact they are not. I have no problem with preponderence of evidence just don't try to palm it off as firsthand accounts or eyewitness be honest and say my take my opinion my version ect. Second hand information as you put it. I would point out again as I did to Garth if we are using the trial analogy the jury is slightly rigged Quote: In regard to your court comments these accounts have not been tried in any court yet you treat them like they have, you have ruled them case closed solved without the benefit of trial. Before anyone gets their panties in a wad I'm not asking or even suggesting that they need to be either. Only that it is possible just maybe that all the facts have not been presented. even in court we do get the benefit of hearing from both sides after all, a luxury we will not get here in this case. Is one sided testimony a part of your court as well? Would that fly as you say? Doubtful..... How can one really render a fair and balanced verdict hearing one side would you like those odds if you were on trial? Doubtful. Well Garth if you only side with those who think like you ,only allow them to be on your jury(are there any of the thousands of non greasespot exways on that jury I think not.) and only allow the prosecuting side to testify in the trial then YES you have a skewed justice system. That's not rocket science to figure that out. I only asked that people don't claim to be something they are not just to make their case an eyewitness is what it is by definition, and verifying requires that you have evidence not opinion, best guess ,suspicion, I like you, I don't like you or a variety of other things as your base for verification.

Oh jonny there is still hope someday I may get to things I learned then again maybe not :blink:

Dot I can't say what I would have done if I was a young girl in that situation, I'd like to think I would have remained true to what I had learned and stood on scripture. But who knows? And even if I did my stand is not the issue. My only response to this was if one does put ones self in harms way after knowing of danger then at some point we have personal responsibility another words don't walk down second street at 3:00 am and wonder why you got mugged. In the case of M's account and her account only, I did note that it was not correct to say she had no chance to walk away by her own account she was in her car and in a rage flinging gravel on the motor coach. she was free and clear she made the choice for reasons unknown to return with the full knowledge of the potential danger and no support . Should she have had to have had that Absolutely not, she should have felt safe there. But she knew better when she returned, I don't know the reasons for her mistake but from looking at the record it is clear she did have a chance to get away in fact was in her car and away. Not everyone I know had that same opportunity but in her case she did, to ignore that information was being less than honest. I was not asking for judgment only acknowledgment of the facts that were presented.

Oh, and Whitedove, your approach and (mis)usage of "we gotta have proof of the accusing accounts given" is just that, ... a misusage. Because you take these accounts to ANY court in the country, with the documentation and supporting witnesses, ... and even a 1st year law student could get a _proving_ conviction with his/her eyes closed. ... In a heartbeat. I see you read what I said as well as some others Garth ,not surprised. I spoke for myself and myself alone "I" don't accept internet stories especially anonymous ones. That as I said several times (I'm sure you missed that as well) does not make them true or make them false it also makes no one a liar. Just that I can not verify the information and I by choice which I have a right to don't accept unverifiable information especially from faceless people on the net. This by the way has nothing exclusive to do with Way issues even ,it could be an account of a dogfight or some other issue. There have been a few stories here on GS from time to time that have surfaced and later debunked that people got sucked in to because the took people at face value, Sorry I don't nothing personal I extend that policy to everyone ,it is ridicules to not consider that in accepting information as fact or truth. In regard to your court comments these accounts have not been tried in any court yet you treat them like they have, you have ruled them case closed solved without the benefit of trial. Before anyone gets their panties in a wad I'm not asking or even suggesting that they need to be either. Only that it is possible just maybe that all the facts have not been presented. even in court we do get the benefit of hearing from both sides after all, a luxury we will not get here in this case. Is one sided testimony a part of your court as well? Would that fly as you say? Doubtful..... How can one really render a fair and balanced verdict hearing one side would you like those odds if you were on trial? Doubtful. My problem really was with claims that can not be substantiated specifically if you read back my first posts that someone is an eyewitness when they were not at the scene even. You say that will fly in court I doubt it Garth. That defies what a eyewitness is and yet it is ok to say these things just do and say whatever because " we don't like the way" I don't either but they have a right to be treated without dishonest speech you can't just make s**t up. Hearing a story after the fact is not an eyewitness look it up. eye·wit·ness –noun 1. a person who actually sees some act, occurrence, or thing and can give a firsthand account of it: There were two eyewitnesses to the murder. –verb (used with object) 2. to view with one's own eyes: to eyewitness a murder. Here is what she said by her own words She talked to me when she got back does that sound anything remotely like (a person who actually sees some act, occurrence, or thing and can give a firsthand account of it.) Not really yet now she is accepted as a eyewitness just like that...POOF and will down the road be forever quoted in future threads as one like it is truth. It's not it is fabricated BS and that is what I took exception with and other things like it . Of course rather than deal with the issues at hand as par for the course the subject is changed to wierwille supporters, worshipers, unsympathetic to blah blah rape pillage and anything to detract from the truth which was by definition she was wrong. and this is the kind of BS that has gone on too long.

Rascal I never once accused anyone of being a liar that is just your spin. There is a big difference in calling someone a liar and admitting that information is not verifiable that means according to definition not I like the info so I believe it is true. You might believe someone is drunk they may exhibit signs of such but without the DUI report you can not prove your opinion. It does not mean you are lying or telling the truth it means you have a guess, a hunch, an opinion, a suspicion, call it what you like but it is impossible to confirm without a DUI test. It also has zero, notta, nothing, to do with putting credence in VPW teachings or anyone else's for that matter. It is evaluation of facts pure and simple do the facts without a doubt line up or are there gaps in the data.