WhiteDove

Thank You All for your heartfelt wishes. The day passed without event for the most part, spent most of it working. I did get to log on here after work about 1:30 AM and it was kind of you to remind me that it was my Birthday.

Happy Birthday I see that you broke the 100 year mark this year ,must be all that running that keeps you, looking so fine! Well, we are another year older but are we any wiser? I'll ring you later and find out......

I do have a Love Child CD in the bookshop, seeing as how the market value for the vinyl is at $299.00 I figure with the advantages of the CD it should at least bring $500.00. It seems that there was a small price increase that I somehow missed. I assume that you will still want the disk newlife...... Of course with the 98% Greasespot discount that will make it $10.00 your cost.

The Belizean BRC had them for sale But I see that they pulled all the old way music from their bookstore now. I know that they checked with the artists before they sold them but perhaps something new is a- foot. I'll check our bookshop and see if we still have any left. If not I have one and also her other tape on CD Written in the Stars.

Pathetic you can get a CD for $10.00 & shipping

I'm still puzzled by why VP would associate sinner as non-Christian, and saint as Christian it makes no sense to me and I know he knew better as he taught it many times. I can see the saint as Christian part as there is scriptural support for that but none for sinner being exclusive to non - Christian Any thoughts?

Union Sundown Bob Dylan Well, my shoes, they come from Singapore, My flashlight's from Taiwan, My tablecloth's from Malaysia, My belt buckle's from the Amazon. You know, this shirt I wear comes from the Philippines And the car I drive is a Chevrolet, It was put together down in Argentina By a guy makin' thirty cents a day. Well, it's sundown on the union And what's made in the U.S.A. Sure was a good idea 'Til greed got in the way. Well, this silk dress is from Hong Kong And the pearls are from Japan. Well, the dog collar's from India And the flower pot's from Pakistan. All the furniture, it says "Made in Brazil" Where a woman, she slaved for sure Bringin' home thirty cents a day to a family of twelve, You know, that's a lot of money to her. Well, it's sundown on the union And what's made in the U.S.A. Sure was a good idea 'Til greed got in the way. Well, you know, lots of people complainin' that there is no work. I say, "Why you say that for When nothin' you got is U.S.-made?" They don't make nothin' here no more, You know, capitalism is above the law. It say, "It don't count 'less it sells." When it costs too much to build it at home You just build it cheaper someplace else. Well, it's sundown on the union And what's made in the U.S.A. Sure was a good idea 'Til greed got in the way. Well, the job that you used to have, They gave it to somebody down in El Salvador. The unions are big business, friend, And they're goin' out like a dinosaur. They used to grow food in Kansas Now they want to grow it on the moon and eat it raw. I can see the day coming when even your home garden Is gonna be against the law. Well, it's sundown on the union And what's made in the U.S.A. Sure was a good idea 'Til greed got in the way. Democracy don't rule the world, You'd better get that in your head. This world is ruled by violence But I guess that's better left unsaid. From Broadway to the Milky Way, That's a lot of territory indeed And a man's gonna do what he has to do When he's got a hungry mouth to feed. Well, it's sundown on the union And what's made in the U.S.A. Sure was a good idea 'Til greed got in the way.

They were available in the bookstore in VHS later on and also in Beta at first Also on the same tape was Changed ,and Bud Morgans The abundant life. Retail price in the bookstore $30.00 item order # 4203 I bet I have a BETA tape somewhere. They pop up on ebay sometimes. You might check with the Belieze Fellowship they used to have it on DVD I think.

You are correct WW. Just for the record I was not making any claims as to what he meant , just offering some theory for thought and discussion on possibilities. . In considering your information I checked the 1971 PFAL book , (I assume that was what you meant by orange book ,as the other one The Words Way did not appear to have any references in it.) I offered the theory based on the one article that I was familiar with , but in looking at both articles Chapter 3 & 4 (side by side it appears that he did as you mentioned mean Christian and non - Christian as it is written in the second article. I'd agree we can now eliminate that as a possibility from the table. Also we can eliminate the new birth theory as it clearly was speaking of positive and negative believing. One last thought From VP's perspective, and the scriptures also I believe) is the understanding that God is faithful to His Word and to honor the promises in the scripture. If a saint (Christian) believes those promises he would get the result as per scripture) If a sinner ( non - Christian ) believed those promises he would as well get the results as per scripture. Given that God is faithful to His Word one could reap the benefits of believing what He said without being Christian in profession. This still falls short of a law and would not work in every situation as in the case of an atheist or agnostic.

Audiences R Us maybe? Actually he has a contact in Oregon and a website to draw from . But he gets his share of exwayfers as well. I know CFF has had him through Ohio a few times.

quote waysider Not to be too contrary, but it was Wierwille, himself, who said, "---works for saint and sinner alike." I suppose you could get wrapped up in what was meant by "saint" and what was meant by "sinner" but I think it's pretty obvious he meant it would work for "anybody" who used it. As White Dove pointed out, from a non-Christian point of view, it("believing") does not fit the criteria necessary to qualify as a bona fide "law". And then, too, there is that blasted word "alike" which means that not only does it work for both saint and sinner but it works the same way! I have to conclude, at least for myself, that the statement, although it sounds quite noble, is not accurate. I'd agree - in terms of believing especially in the Christian or biblical sense I suppose it could work alike if the sinner in this case was also a Christian as the mechanics in doing so would be the same. But to expect someone that is not of the mind to believe biblical scripture to accept such information as truth worth accepting and believing would be a stretch for sure. Assuming that saint and sinner is used as a figure of speech for good or bad behavior it would work the same . In the terms of believing to receive the new birth however I do think the process works the same for either. In the end that phrase works for saint and sinner alike went the same way as believe for, which is fine by me.

Someone at the dog park offered a sentence for people like this guy and Mr. Vick they thought since Michael like to play ball so much and is probably missing his on the field time that we should dip him in some beef broth a little Vick au juse and put him and 40 of his pit bull friends on the field if he makes it to the goal post he gets a free absolution if not ...well I guess we won't have to worry about what to do, except where to bury what's left of the body.....

I'd give it a fair to middling ( often pronounced Midland) rating Socks....... Actually this phrase came up at the dog park this week everyone knows what it means but no one could give the roots of where it came from. Find out here

[quote'WordWolf' My apologies. I was under the impression that cg had boiled the subject down to its essence, rather than leave all the artificial titles and unnecessary categories in place. I gave him more credit than he earned. My mistake. More or less I think you were right he did. Your definition "Believing-trusting information received-from whatever source- and acting on it. " was basically the substance although noted that since we were dealing with or interested with biblical understanding the source in this case was the scriptures, or the revelation manifestations, either way it came from God. Everything had that as the basis, the same mechanics in other words. I think the other notations was just to highlight the difference in how the end result came about. For example accomplished believing - Jesus had the same mechanics in believing as we do, nothing different, but it was noted that he was at least to this point the only one who accomplished it completely. It is a bit like a category "Cars that won the Race" all won the race, the same way, but one might note Red cars that won the race, American cars that won the race, sports cars that won the race and so on.... It all falls under receiving information by way of written or direct revelation and then believing that information to be true and acting accordingly on it (if action is required) I would not term these as multiple types of believing, as they all use the same mechanics, it is just additional information on how that happened. This eliminated many previous problems such as degrees of believing - you either do or you do not. terms like Believe God, Believing for, and so on.... that do not appear in scripture. It also opened the door to take all the terms we were adept at understanding in some cases to be believing that were not the same thing, like prayer, prayer is sometimes in scripture used with believing but not the same thing as believing others like positive mental attitude, trust, confidence in and others. Often you would hear someone say I am believing for the situation or for you in the situation. It was ambiguous. What did that mean? Were you praying for me? If so then why not say ,I am praying for you instead, as that is what you were doing. Not believing. Are you meaning that you are wanting to contribute financially to the situation? Then say that Do you wish to offer physical help? We became adept at using ambiguous terms and in some cases understanding what others meant and in some not. One could sit with a Bible and concordance and see what prayer meant the same could not be said for believing for/ or with you. In that sense it did boil down to the basics of here is what believing is, all these other things that (we called or thought were believing ) we can set aside and determine what they are, but they are not believing. The one thing that was not addressed was believing as "a law". He based that on When something works with reliability and consistency it is called a law. Scientists count on gravity functioning exactly, precisely, time and time again. They count on its being measurable and calculable. Similarly, we refer to this reality of believing as the "law of believing" because it is reliable like so many of the other laws that we rely on in other fields. God is not a man that He should lie and the words in God's Word are pure words and He stands behind every statement in His Word. The problem in that is it requires that one believe in Christian faith in order for that to be a law, which by definition does not appear to pass the test. Thinking from a Christian perspective only which he would have, the rational makes sense but when adding the non Christian perspective it does not pan out as a law At this point, this is far from a finished work but rather an ongoing project.

The categories that Chris published were 1. Active Believing A. The Manifestation of Believing For both catagory 1 believing and Catagory 1A believing(the manifestation of believing) the same mechanics of believing are involved. The distinction is due to the way in which the information is received. With catagory 1 the information comes by way of the five senses. With catagory 1A the information comes by way of revelation - the word of knowledge,word of wisdom,or discerning of spirits. However the mechanics of believing are the same for both catagory 1 and catagory 1A. B. THE (right way of) Believing (as opposed to all other ways) All men believe something, but not all men have THE(right way of) believing 2. Accomplished Believing Many men and women through the years have believed God,but it is only the Lord Jesus Christ who accomplished the entire matter of believing, and who is the finisher,the completer, or perfecter of pistis/pisteuo. There also were catagories 3 & 4 reserved for future publication. Later updated work on the faith of Jesus Christ see GWT 360 genetive of relation and the figure of speech Metonymy rendered before that upon which is given to belieive, or upon that which believing is founded.

No offence taken Copenhagen, in the end we all do what we do. I understand, really I do . I have been where you are and I did not like the price to pay either. I wanted a different path out of the wilderness as well, that I was stuck in. It took a teaching from Vince Finnegan to finally make me see, that when I plant tomato seeds in the ground the end result is tomatoes. If one wants cucumbers as the final result one must plant cucumber seeds. Taking a tomato plant and cutting the tomatoes off and gluing cucumbers on it won't work. If one wants to change to cucumbers one must plant cucumber seeds. If you want to change issues in your heart you must change what seeds are planted there. The deception we all face is thinking that by changing circumstances, situations, or associations, we can change our lives. Sometimes that works in the short term. The truth is the heart is that which must be altered to change our lives. Once I realized that God had provided a way out of the wilderness I had to let go of the choices that kept me sitting there. It was silly to think I could help anyone else when I was just as stuck in the wilderness as they were. If anyone was getting out I had to go for help, down the road provided. That's not to say I did not go kicking and complaining all the way, but when I got honest I knew that it was the right choice no matter the cost. Life in the wilderness was ok, I had a little food ,a little water now and then, like a survivor castaway I had made a home there, but it was a far cry from the life of the old days of fellowship with the Father. As I said we all have a price we will pay in life, sometimes the cost is too high. I wish you Godspeed down your path. Dylan once said "I paid the price of solitude, but at least I'm out of debt."

Copenhagen I'm not sure if you were looking for input or just lamenting on the way things are. If you were looking for input I'd offer this. First, you are never stuck anywhere that you don't want to be, it is only limited by, if you are willing to do what is needed to make the change. Nothing is worth staying somewhere where you are miserable. But the cost for change is sometimes high. Many times the experiences of our youth seem to be better than they really were. I do think that there were some great times as well, but in looking back part of that was tempered with the advantages of youth , vs the weight of an adult. For myself I think that part of the *good old days * was certainly due to the lack of responsibility to the world. I could say the same about the hippie days. I don't think you will ever reclaim those times, your not the same person that you were. We all grow up. I must confess I don't get this. The Way was not a school for a job placement, it was biblical research and teaching. While one may have learned and taken away some things useful in job situations for sure, it none the less was not why we were there. Although it may be disputable as to the degree, The Way offered spiritual training , it was not intended to enrich 401K's or build secular careers. If that was what one wanted you signed on the wrong dotted line. If I want groceries I don't go to the bar and then complain that there is no food there. I may be misunderstanding you but it looks like you were not wanting some secular involvement program, or a church to attend, but rather you are looking for the old feeling and fellowship that you had. It appears that you are overall satisfied with you beliefs and not wanting to adopt traditional church ideas ( such as The Trinity, The dead alive, ect.) I'd offer this to you, the closest thing to what you appear to be looking for is the CFF group. They have not moved too far from the Way doctrine, and do offer at least in some locations some opportunities for fellowship and fun. Some of the Wierwille kids are involved with CFF and they do offer many opportunities for youth events. I've met a few people off and on over the years that fellowship there and always found their company to be quite enjoyable. A few months back I attended a BBQ and had a great time talking with Sara W. and we sang some of those old songs around the campfire with guitars, it was enjoyable but it was not the same as in my youth. As Mary Hopkins once sang....... Once upon a time there was a tavern Where we used to raise a glass or two Remember how we laughed away the hours And dreamed of all the great things we would do Those were the days my friend We thought they'd never end We'd sing and dance forever and a day We'd live the life we choose We'd fight and never lose For we were young and sure to have our way. La la la la... Those were the days, oh yes those were the days Then the busy years went rushing by us We lost our starry notions on the way If by chance I'd see you in the tavern We'd smile at one another and we'd say Those were the days my friend We thought they'd never end We'd sing and dance forever and a day We'd live the life we choose We'd fight and never lose For we were young and sure to have our way. La la la la... Those were the days, oh yes those were the days Just tonight I stood before the tavern Nothing seemed the way it used to be In the glass I saw a strange reflection Was that lonely woman really me Those were the days my friend We thought they'd never end We'd sing and dance forever and a day We'd live the life we choose We'd fight and never lose For we were young and sure to have our way. La la la la... Those were the days, oh yes those were the days Through the door there came familiar laughter I saw your face and heard you call my name Oh my friend we're older but no wiser For in our hearts the dreams are still the same Those were the days my friend We thought they'd never end We'd sing and dance forever and a day We'd live the life we choose We'd fight and never lose For we were young and sure to have our way. La la la la... Those were the days, oh yes, those were the days

I thought that it was Walter Cummins who worked on the original 5 kinds of Faith.

Here are some music links for you . Music

Have fun tell Gary A hi for me.

[quote 'WordWolf' Actually, to one mode of thinking, it makes a lot of sense to have a test before an "Advanced" class. The point would logically be that the material presented would be "advanced", and with limited availability of seating and the committment of the person taking it, it is logical to ensure that the new student is sufficiently grounded in the foundational level of discussion, and ready to delve into new material, or old material in an entirely different manner. So, it makes sense that written "Home Studies", say, be required, or that the previous 2 levels be taken at least twice. Or that an exam be given. What makes a lot LESS sense is that the exam wasn't BINDING. There was no issued grade, no "pass/fail" nor "Acceptable, Exceeds Expectations, etc" nor any other descriptor. As I was told-in writing- having sat thru it was sufficient to tell me what I needed to focus on until then. (Which was correct in my case-the only thing I didn't buzzsaw through was a set of number & letter references concerning "holy spirit', which was a completely artificial system that was nonetheless duplicated in the Ready-Reference glued into the back of my Bible. So I didn't NEED to focus on anything further.) There SHOULD have been a scoring system, and a score beyond which you needed to retake a test and try again for another class. In hindsight, the practical upshot of me taking that test was to give me a confident feeling about my preparation level, and to give me another hoop to jump through. I don't know if either actually was intended. (Could have been both, neither, or either.) ====== Oh, and when I was AT the AC, another student had a copy of that book, and was reading exerpts from it. One of the warning signs (I read over his shoulder) of occult or demonic activity was denial of the Trinity. Given the context of this statement, it was amusing- much moreso for the other guy than me, he just was amused as heck. WW did you not ever get your score back from your exam? You should have had a percent score for each part and a overall % for the test. I know some people who were advised to wait at times and retest the next year. I took the exam in 75 or 76 but as you said I did not feel I did as well as I wanted to and declined to take the class. Silly me I thought that I would be better prepared with some additional learning. It was years later we were talking about it one day when we were doing the Advanced Class Grad Meetings /training for the state. I mentioned it to Jonny Townsend he told me that my scores would have been perfectly acceptable and in likelyhood were better than most who probably took it. What a goof I was , I really wanted to be at the best level of understanding to receive the most from the class. He thought it was pretty funny that I thought I did not do well on the test. They always said that the scores were an indicater VP to which areas to teach more on , but I have my doubts that it really was the case. I don't recall much time difference between subjects in various classes ever changing. Maybe in some of the early classes that may have been the case.

quote name='WordWolf' Any answer I could give would be speculation and supposition. Which I'm giving now... My impression here is similar to the reaction at hq when vpw announced that people could build their houses on-site, so long as they agreed that the ownership would revert to twi when they died. Almost nobody took him up on it. (IIRC, there was exactly one mentioned.) Seems people didn't like the "fine print" on that agreement. I'm thinking the LICENSING AGREEMENT for this class offered little and asked much, benefiting cg but not the organization. That seems to me to be the most likely reason. Other possible reasons include personal conflict/spite, legal inability to sign the agreement as written, and other, more esoteric ones. I think it was about Money for sure............. 10% of the years ABS for Gartmore House would have been a chunk of change each year if that was not waved as the licence fee was. He may even have tried to "guilt" them into accepting the agreement- by setting up the class, getting people to commit to being there, then springing the fine print on the organization at the last minute, expecting them to agree so as not to inconvenience the arrivals. Well they had plenty of time to object as it was advertised under their name and they could have seen they were facing a problem well ahead of time, so I'd pass on this one and according to him they offered no indication that it was going to be a problem until the day before. Their lack of any response or rebuttal also speaks loudly. Pick your reason-one of these, some of these, or none of these. I lack sufficient information to state any of them confidently. Me Too

Yep WW that about sums it up. Don't know his motives in the name change but I took note when I saw it back then It was my clue that they had severed ties with International. (I also noted when the Gartmore tapes changed to Word Promotions copyrights. ) He may have done it to confuse people, he may have done it P*ss off Craig, or he may have seen them as the real Way in Great Britain, but the name was taken. Who knows? My personal guess is the last choice I think he saw them as followers of the Way and as a nod to VPW he continued on with the name or close to it. But you are right about Gartmore house.

David you have mentioned that same quote several times in threads, so I thought I would offer you this ....... It was a Joke - Ok his humor was about as funny as VP's but none the less a joke. If one could walk on water it would not matter if the water was 1 inch or 50 feet deep as you would walk on the surface only. He sugested that maybe if you were not sure that you were really instructed by revelation that one could acomplish this task you might want to start with the lesser of the surfaces in case you failed to acomplish your task. It is alot safer to fail in 1 inch than in 50 feet of water..