WhiteDove

Who was backed into a corner and who claimed assumption? You act like you scored some kind of coup, or made some little point. I have yet to see anybody backed into a corner or change their testimony of what they were taught.... Because it was taught by LC`s at womens advances or LC`s at pre marriage counceling...does not in any way negate the validity of my point. It`s like you see things entirely different than they have been written. Not at all. But I do see it as progress in getting to the real truth. Which was in case you have forgotten : what people actually said vs what people say the said or thought they heard She offered this instance to support her claim that and I quote" The doctrine that women are inferior creatures who must obey their husbands or risk a "good clocking" started early in TWI: about five minutes the miracle of the snow-covered gas pumps.' I made this offer So is it your belief that Nancy was implying that scripture was advocating "a clocking" and women as inferior creatures . It appears so otherwise why include it in your point. I'd be happy to email her and see if she remembers the story a little differently? I'm betting so....... Is that you final answer? When faced with this offer then her reply was The point: Bubbakins, there was a lot of unofficially official doctrine spoken privily and in small groups that was accepted as gospel. Maybe the teachers didn't actually say "submit or die" but the implications were surely there. Origional statement = The doctrine that women are inferior creatures who must obey their husbands or risk a "good clocking" started early in TWI: about five minutes the miracle of the snow-covered gas pumps Final statement= Maybe the teachers didn't actually say "submit or die" but the implications were surely there. End result as a result of my offer to confirm this statement with the speaker the amended statement was"I said they said it but yes they really did not say it" but I understood that the implications were there. Not the same as saying it! As I have said all along. It is your opinion of what was said or meant which could be based on a variety of things including preconceived feelings on the issue. Which was the point all along, people are attributing quotes to people based on what they think they heard or think they said Not what they actually said. Let me give you a simple example WD says - This is a nice looking tomato. Person Hears - This is a nice tomato to smash in your face. Then says I heard him say he wanted to smash a tomato in my face Not really what I said , just what they think they heard.

Being honest is a good start to help..........

WhiteDove you can keep skirting it all you like, you can deny these teachings ever came out of HQ, and continue to claim that because the didn't they were not "official way doctrine." But can you deny that HQ placed people in positions of leadership who did, in fact, teach such things? Do you believe that those in charge at HQ are NOT in any way responsible for who they put in charge on the field? I was never told it was okay for my husband to beat me. I was told, however, by three different women in TWI - all in leadership positions, that in essence I should use sex to get my way. Should prostitute myself by buying favors from my husband with sex. Should manipulate him. Did they use those words? Nope. They said things like "if you have sex with him before you ask, he will be in a better mood and more likely to say yes." "If you have sex with him, he won't be angry about such and such." etc. etc. Because, afterall, the way to a man's heart isn't through his stomach but an organ somewhat lower. Abigail I don't doubt that at all , in fact I read that same advise all the time in most woman's of the major magazines. I don't see clock your wife there though..... Go figure

Really Tom and you can document your claim here, show me a post where I said that....... Or should I just believe you because you are hurting? Happy Digging.................

Thanks you have answered my question it was not said, but some may have made a guess at what they meant and now that assumption has become, yes they said that . In reallity they did not. My point exactly what some seem to remember mostly was not, but rather something they asumed that someone was saying. Prime example Ephesians 5: 22,23,24 22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. One could read this verse and someone may assume it means beat your wife. Thats not what it says. I'm not interested in someone's guess or opinion of what they think someone may have said. Like I said not fact......... just opinion.

Well that's an easy one but probably a foreign concept to you. Integrity, Truth Despite the problems in/with The Way they deserve to be represented with honesty and truth not speculation,fuzzy memories, and guesses. I have no problem with proven faults just I wannna say something here ones that have no logical basis for a case. here is why for anyone to be effective in proving their point or case for helping anyone to leave the site and information must be creditable. If it is not it is easy to make a case why what they say about GreaseSpot is true. One can simply point to any post and say see that is untrue they are just liars like we told you. Simple enough? On the other hand if the information is honest truthful and documentable then they have no recourse now do they?

Yep you made it your own so much that you uttered this famous quote.............. Quote#33 I've heard it all before and it's the main reason I'm not christian anymore. So U see too wistand all that because of making the scripture your own only just to profess such statements seems at best highly unlikely.

you weren't there, so I wonder what makes you think you know I didn't stand up and speak? you say by my own admission, but why would I say (and indeed, where did I say) something so patently untrue? Ok Where Qupte....... what I learned in real life was that to survive as comfortably as possible, I should not disagree with what the leaders were teaching. That pretty much says it all I wont disagree with what the leaders say, which means that one would not stand up and stand and speak...... Note the goal is for you to survive as comfortably as possible not concern for the integrity of the scripture despite personal discomfort like the records in the Bible.

You apparently don't understand how life works, too bad for you , there are accepted rules to proving your case, of course those that have no case don't like the rules. again too bad for you. your free to voice any opinion you want but opinion is not fact. Gee I bet Drew Peterson is hurting I guess we just accept his version of what happened to his wives as fact because he said so. Hey no proof needed he said it good enough for me. Lets just hold hands and be loving. Yeah it works like that..........

So is it your belief that Nancy was implying that scripture was advocating "a clocking" and women as inferior creatures . It appears so otherwise why include it in your point. I'd be happy to email her and see if she remembers the story a little differently? I'm betting so....... Is that you final answer? Hey speaking of CFS I'm looking at a transcript from the class Gee What do I see Perhaps Way Doctrine Documentable even Lets see Genesis 2:18 Helpmeet Means companion, one who brings out the best in a man (Not a slave,or dog,ect) He doesn't take advantage of her,doesn't raise hell with her. Ephesians 5:22 Submit=subject see vs 24 Christ does not lord it over the church. If your man yells, jump? BALONEY (note the all Caps on that one) Well there is plenty more but not going to waste the time You get the point here is documentable doctrine of the Way, is it any wonder people scrach their heads when some contrary thing appears an of course just must be believed on faith? There couldn't be any other reason why someone would just say such a thing.

Anyone that routinely deals with multiple stories of how events unfolded knows that one does not take the word of the participants at face value. Of course the robbers will tell you they did nothing wrong the others will chime in and agree. So does the policeman just shrug and say oh gee they are hurting I better just believe them. Hardly.... It's commen sense to know that until an accusation is provable it is not truth. Recently Mr. Vick was an alleged dog abuser some said he was, some said he was not. I'm sure his family said he was a good boy do we just believe them because they are hurting? Nope He got his day in court and the allegations were proved at that point they were no longer alleged but factual accusations. that’s how the process works if you want to make allegations about someone you best be prepared to prove your assault I've previously explained what a fact is refer to prior post. Until that time it is an opinion an should be referred to as such not a given truth until documented.

Right unless someone has some sort of provable information it can not be passed off as fact, by definition Sorry if the meaning of the word gets in the way of someone's agenda. But that's the way it is. It's speculation until proven and should be referred to as such until such time as there is adequate proof of fact.

Nope only the ones that obviously continue to do so day after day. what you posted I never disputed that is not the same as what Rascal posted submitting is in the Bible abuse is not simple as that.

Nice try WW too bad the definition of fact gets in the way of your opinion. Apperantly some feel the need for proof and/or verification besides me for it to be a fact, then again that is what a fact isin real life. Fact 1.a piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred; "first you must collect all the facts of the case" 2. a statement or assertion of verified information about something that is the case or has happened; "he supported his argument with an impressive array of facts" 3. an event known to have happened or something known to have existed; "your fears have no basis in fact"; "how much of the story is fact and how much fiction is hard to tell" 4. a concept whose truth can be proved; "scientific hypotheses are not facts"

Dove, Couples advances were very different than the women's advances. I have attended both. Corpes women and wives were different even more so...I don`t believe you were corpes or a womn, so for you to atte,pt to speak authoritatively about either is silly. Rascal I'm not going to debate advances with you I have been to all but not every advance but I have attended a women's advance, I've talked with those that have been there as well, I have notes from a few. No One I have found has the same story as you. You seem to want focus on that fact that I entered the Corps program from the back door so to speak. You have mentioned it a few times, A fact I have never hid, but I have a lot more interaction than you will ever know. I suppose this is just left over intimidation factor from the way days. It's not working..... Corps spouses were as much a part of the program as everyone else we faced the same accountability without the benefit of some of the in house experience I might add. I know we were looked down on as not good enough I guess you still feel the same. Apparently though some of us lesser's got the program better than the ones who made it through the in house version. I had a long talk with John T before entering into this option, I was well aware of the attitudes long before after much discussion he gave me some good advice He said all of us are where we are by the grace of God he sees us no differently. If others do thats their problem. He also added if someone needed an attitude adjustment on the subject that I could send them to him. Do you ? You say that only here at grease spot have you read of people portraying a different image of the twi than you personally viewed. Could it be that God is introducing you to a whole different set of people with different experiences than you have had prior contact with? Could it be he is working in people to present a different side of the story? A different pov that gives a more complete picture of what happened in twi and why? Could it be an opportunity to be moved by compassion for those who suffered...rather than further recriminations and nastiness? Dove, I am as real as any other person that you have talked to. No we have not met in the flesh...but we have spoken on the phone. We know and love the same people. They would be more than willing to vouch for my veracity , IF< IF< IF, if you REALLY cared. The thing is...you don`t WANT what I say to be true...it is too damaging to your beliefs. You have to then some how invalidate what I say in order to live with your perceptions...in order to hold to your current belief....I have to be invalidated...I am a liar or I exaggerate or it never happened. Do you know that God probably cares JUST as much for me as he does those that you talk to in the flesh? That he works in my life? How do you think it makes folks feel when you call us liars? When you insist that our accounts never happened? It sucks Dove, yet somehow you seem to think because I am typing words with my fingers instead of speaking them out of my mouth in a face to face situation....that it is ok to be mean....to lead the gang banging. Your words whether typed or spoken hurt, yet by the doctrine that you hold as truth....these actions are ok and justifiable. Love God and love your neighbor friend, if what you do is not lining up with that then it is time to examine ourselves as Christians :( I find it interesting that people with axes to grind daily here also are the only ones who mysteriously heard these undocumented doctrines. It has zero, not a thing to do with my perception or what I want to think just an obvious fact to consider, which by the way you still fail to understand my perception as evident by your remarks. I just would like to see some documentation ,verification by someone other than the person complaining. It's easy to claim anything if you don't have to produce any accountability. You may be a nice person I think so, having talked with you. That does not mean either of us always speaks the truth, which by the way does not make you a liar either ,Different thing. Loving God does not require sucking down everything everyone is laying down.

Why what are they going to do take away your bookstore privilages? Christians bound by Fear? Yea Of course were veepee worshipers because we stand for fair and balanced facts not someone told me that they told them that theie twentyfith removed relative may have said so and so. They think... Tom all that ice is freezing your brain Facts are facts opinion is opinion

Oakspear- Agreed I have no qualms with the nit picking thing at the expense of the Love of God, there certainly was enough of that to go around. I guess I was looking at the "right" from a different direction a biblical one. Everyone - This has nothing to do with self righteousness, the fact is we were involved with a ministry that was built on the standard of It Is Written and while arguably that may not have always been the case in every situation. (that's a argument for a different day.) It none the less was the core of the groups teaching. How many different ways did we hear it? The Word of God is the Will of God, Make the Word your own, God's Magnified Word, It Is Written, The Integrity of the Word and a whole long line of others. This was ministry 101 so to speak, starting in PFAL or before in Twigs. We were to make the scriptures a standard or reference point in life. It's like going through fifteen years of math classes and not understanding two plus two equal four. Anyone that spent more than fifteen minutes at the way should have got that. I suppose there were some that never took that seriously that never made the scriptures their rule of faith and practice ,that seems a foreign concept to me . Why would you be there if you did not want to live that kind of life? That's what they were offering why stay around if that was not what one was wanting? Now assuming that everyone was now wanting this lifestyle due to the fact they were staying around and not only that but speaking and promoting it to others. I must admit I am amazed that when the rubber met the road that this concept somehow went out the window , Why anyone would not really out of automatic response almost, confront each situation with scriptural response. The concept of just "being comfortable" seems foreign to one who said they wanted to live a lifestyle of biblical standard. I'll insert here Yes - I got it! (face melting, fear of family, wanting to be loved, leaving a program and then rest) But then again going back to the lifestyle that we were wanting to adhere to . We would have seen that none of those things should have moved us from the truth of scriptures. When confronted with Bulls*** it seems that the response would be not to cower away but to respond with that which we had learned It Is Written. Sorry I just don't get why anyone took the abuse. I can only conclude that person did not make the scripture their own to the point of where none of those things moved them, the place where speaking and living the truth was more important than personal comfort. I realize that some peoples opinions have changed as of now but at the time I think its fair to say that most were of the mind of standing up for the scripture. Potato - Your right I don't know you but having read some 2,000 of your posts I can say this They are your words ,and I can't remember any that said you took any personal responsibility in any of the situations that you spoke of. It is always the Way ,the Twig Coordinator, the Branch Coordinator the Limb Coordinator. your Ex, and on and on. While it may be true that had a part in the situation ,you did as well. Look you had a plan - to fade back and live comfortably despite what you professed you were doing while in the Way, which was speaking the truth and living according to scripture. Fine your choice, I think you see now it didn't work. What it did do was prolong the point where you had to make the choice that you were faced with in the first place, at your expense I might add with years of frustration built up inside of you from not speaking. I don't know you or why the core teaching of the ministry that you were involved with did not reach you. But it is obvious from your response that it did not first in your plan to not speak ,and live comfortably and second in your total abandonment of scripture as posted "and it's the main reason I'm not Christian anymore" That the lifestyle of living according to scripture was not priority in both cases is clear by your response. It is a easy recognizable fact in your decision not to speak up and your decision to not adhere to Christian scripture period. I made or make no comment on as to why that was your choice only that from facts that you presented that it was your choice. At this point I'll add this( before someone infers that is what I mean) ,being a non Christian does not make you a bad person it makes you a non Christian that's all. I have no axe to grind with you personally. I do think it is unfortunate that your plan to keep quiet and take the abuse has resulted in the choice you have made to chuck everything. Just an observation but it seems from reading here that many, but not all that have made the same decision also had a similar plan to yours. From that ending I can conclude that those plans did not work to further the lifestyle that we all said we wanted to /or were living ,of keeping the scripture first in our lives. I can conclude that speaking up with scripture at that point would have rendered a better result, at least in the person speaking. While it is true it may not have changed things in the way ,that person would have walked away with a different perspective rather than feeling silenced they could have walked away knowing that they did the best they could to remedy the situation with truth. And that has made all the difference in posting perspectives In My Opinion. I can make this observation from the facts you presented not from knowing you or a personal opinion of you. That you failed to stand up and speak in the situation is not in question by your own admission you did not, why you did not remains to be seen. I offered comment on what we all should have done in accordance with what we were saying that we were doing while in the way. Generally they should be the same thing if honest.

WG I don't doubt that which is why I said depending on who and what timeline it was spoken in

First different regions are just that, peoples opinions not the same as Way doctrine from The Way International just because one was involved with the way does not mean they always spoke on their behalf. There were thousands of people do you really expect me to believe that they could monitor and control what everyone said? Not the same as way doctrine Second no matter the regions ,pick one? I still have yet to find someone other than those in the GreaseSpot region that seem to remember this doctrine. I find that interesting...........

Nero the things you posted and the ones below are not the same there is a big difference between a biblical concept and teaching abuse. Being submissive is not equal to abuse. I'm submissive to my boss but not abuse. In fact it can be a great relationship where ideas are sought and exchanged. sometimes the submitter has the better idea, none the less the boss has the final say.

I guessed you missed the ugly part I responded to. Let me remind you I love this new posting style here bait the poster then when they respond they are the bad one. An old bull fighter once said if you don't want the bull then don't wave the red flag for him to come. Rascal I have been to my share of couples advances as well ,so did my wife attend womens advances,marrying into the Corps I went through the grill as well. I never once heard such a doctrine propounded. I don't dismiss this as a isolated instance, I do notice in all of the people I know from all over the country the only place this seems to be the opinion - is here. Interesting other women do not share that opinion I find that telling coming from people that only want to post dailly of some complaint about The Way.

Right, Another undocumented doctrine Of course how convenient, I should have known...........

I was just wondering just when and where this was taught. I seem to have missed that class