WhiteDove

Not what I said at all there could be lots of proof, it just seems to be lacking for some reason Now take for instance the Duke Rape case here we had a hurting victim should we just have believed her story because it was first hand ? Because she was hurting? Nope they sought some proof at least eventually. The proof determined that the charge was lacking credibility. That happened because there was a investigation, not because someone just accepted what they heard. If you choose to live life accepting everything you hear as truth your business, I don't ........

I just don`t understand why one feels compelled to diminish another`s experiences, impressions, and personal accounts :( This sight is about telling the *other side of the story*..the one that we were never allowed to tell when we were involved. To portray a poster as mentally unstable, or an exaggerator, or a liar...a psychotic whiner because one is uncomfortable with the accounts shared, is bewildering and hurtfull. Who made it your business Dove...to attempt non stop discrediting of testimoney....or your business Pond, to attribute mental defect and unhealthiness for holding ones point of view concerning their own personal experiences. Can you guys not just talk about your side of twi...your experiences...your impressions...Please ??? Why this irrational need to discredit anyone who doesn`t agree with you as mentally unstable, or a liar?? I am so tired of having my veracity, my integrity and character called into question when I discuss what happened to me in twi. It is very unkind. You can post about anything you like Rascal I have never said that I wanted to silence you. I made it my business to challenge unproven slander, and I'm telling the other side of the story, the details you left out. I prefer fair and balanced news..........

WD, you claim the that facts presented by personal testimony are unprovable and therefore no good. why do you assume they're unprovable and therefore not factual? I did not say they were unprovable only that to date it has not been done. and your statements about LCM's deposition being factual, what a hoot! people lie all the time in court. it took me over a year to gather evidence that my ex lied in court twice, but I finally got him. Again you seem to insert words where there are none , I never said it was factual what I said was Really? I believe that we heard another side of the story at LCM deposition. Indeed, not every story but enough to see the" for rent sign in his office with enough money, I think many of the facts presented by vpw and lcm's victims could be adequately proven, if by nothing else than the circumstantial evidence of many far flung victims recounting their personal experiences to a degree that leaves no doubt that a crime was committed against them by the same people. And at that point they would no longer be alleged they would be fact ,as I said all along and at that point would qualify them to be spoken of as criminal because the record would confirm such.

...I'd hate to be your "friend" in real life, I'd have to carry around a damn video camera... Tom You forgot the extra battery pack as well......

for which punishment is imposed upon conviction......... and which it is not their crime in the case of the person that was found not guilty of said crime. And is an act committed or omitted in violation of a law means the one claiming a crime was committed has to prove their claim. Imagine that they require some proof, what a novel idea. No proof no crime ! If the police man can't offer reasonable proof you were speeding then no crime was committed on your part ,it is a dismissed accusation due to lack of evidence and there is no crime on your record which is just what I said It's not a crime until proven a crime that's how the justice system works in the USA

The GSC does not have to provide "equal time." The GSC IS "equal time." Fair enough, You are correct it is under no obligation to provide such. However those people that do choose to speak here on either side of the coin do need to make their case, if they expect someone to accept their version of the story as truth. You have consistently challenged that of me WW I expect no less of others . We all should play by the same rules. If one is looking for twi's POV, one can find it from twi whenever they want. Furthermore, ask THEM for the truth about any of the "allegations"- EVEN THE ONES ADMITTED TO IN A COURT OF LAW- and watch how far the answer deviates from "the truth" AS REPORTED IN A COURT OF LAW. Heck, lots of people CURRENTLY in still have not been told the truth of vpw's cause of death- and that's on his Death Certificate. They've spun-control admissions of guilt of lcm, and what the current President of their group knew before they were sued. In twi, there is NO HOPE to get the truth-especially if it's truth they don't LIKE. I think I said not every story was factually presented I have no disagreement that spin control was evident ,but they had their day in court and that was their choice as to what they wanted to say. If they posted here I hold them to the same standard to proove their words as well. Apparently it did not work out well, they settled and LCM is working selling fitness plans or tools at HD. I'm fine with that, he had his day and came up lacking and that which was said is doccumentable. I'll add this I know of one of the people in those suits, they were quite content to enjoy the situation while the perks were good when it became not so attractive or as the Eagles said "You say you haven’t been the same since you had your little crash But you might feel better if I gave you some cash" it became a different story. That does not excuse the situation by any means, and the price was paid, maybe not enough of a price for sure, but I do think there is some co responsibility at least in that case. It's a little dishonest to enjoy the ride and then cry victim when the ride no longer thrills you. Perhaps that is why the case was settled out of court.

Rascal I have never had a personal fight with you as a person ,only your mission to throw whatever you feel like out there as truth. Until you can take it from the hearsay catagory to the factual with tangible proof I will continue to point that out. I spoke an opinion in opposition to that which I believe has not met the burdon of truth.

Says who? People are responsible for what they put out on the internet everyday, you can't just make accusations that are unfounded. WhiteDove, my speculation is that you work for the public relations department at TWI. Well I guess I better see where those paycheck are. What exactly is so wrong or evil about a one-sided story? Let me start one about you and maybe you'll see, I doubt you will stand in such contempt when it's about you. What would you like to be a thief?, a child molester?, a rapist?, a sex trafficker? a drug dealer? Seriously are you that thick that you don't get it that most people prefer to have a say in what is being circulated about them. We never get to hear both sides, and not the other side, as TWI and leaders there are too busy with the silent treatment and damage control tactics. Hell how many people have they paid off in lawsuits to keep from having both sides of the story exposed for all to see and make their own judgments? Really? I believe that we heard another side of the story at LCM deposition. Indeed, not every story but enough to see the" for rent sign in his office". And I say good for them...... By the way that was done in a court, fancy that for a place to get justice who'd have thought?. It has a documentable trail and an after effect. I think that speaks loudly of the story, certainly more than a faceless icon on an internet. What we have here at GS is a little bit of an exposure site. So people who want nothing more than forget their experiences with TWI and move on come on here, find similar stories of evil functioning, get incensed, post their experiences, feel better about themselves, and move on. I have no disagreement to anyone posting their story, as long as it is represented as that, a story, not a given truth, until such time as it is factual, until that point the fact is it is one person telling one side of a story. May be true, may be false, may be a little of both, Who knows? That leaves the reader to guess, or make a choice as to truth based on personality and personality put forth on a faceless computer no less. If this system worked so well I'd bet that legal system would jump at the chance to use it. Just let the charged place a hamster picture on the net , and let the victim with a flower picture of course ,tell their side of the story and only their side, and we all could convict him based on that. Of course we could all tell which was telling the truth ,no need for any facts either by the way just accusations will be fine...............

Thats just it there are no facts presented...... Only a one sided version. Or what they thought they may have heard or at least maybe understood them to mean or well hey they made me wash my face once and I didn't like that so what the hell I'll just say anything cause I don't like that person. So Drew Peterson says he did nothing to his wife or wives by your standard do we just believe his facts of his experiance? Maybe you should call the police and let them know that what he says is truth because he says so . They wont be needing any facts to get in the way of his experiance.

It's not a crime until proven a crime that's how the justice system works in the USA

Jeff Since you are throwing my name about I'll remind you that I never put down anyone here . I simply asked that if someone was accusing another of a crime ,or any likewise serious charge ,they should in a public format have some documentable evidence to back up their story . This is common place in the media and a reasonable request. I doubt you would feel so compelled to accept the heat as you put it if I were to accuse you of being a child molester. I'm guessing that you would want some explanation why I thought so, some reason for my accusation maybe? I was hurt, can I just say anything I want about you and you'll just let it slide? Doubtful.........

I think we have been around this track before and defined it many times but hey whats one more time! In a public media format such as the internet, a newspaper Truth is 1. the true or actual state of a matter: 2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement. 3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths. That does not mean an event described did or did not happen only until such time as you can verify it with fact in order to satisfy the burden of the definition of truth it is referred to as alleged. It is not claiming anyone to be a liar only that such an account is not able to be documented as truth according to definition. It should not be reported or referred to as fact until such time as one can meet the burden of proof required to refer to said event as factual. Until such a time as it can be it is opinion ( be it true or untrue) and should be noted as such. It's pretty simple Michael Vick was accused of fighting dogs some think he was a nice person some do not think so, either is irrelevant until he was given his day and a fair hearing which means both parties get to defend their positions and a decision is rendered. He was alleged to have been involved in fighting dogs. The fact is that the charge was true in the end, but it was not referred to as so, until the burden was met. Pretty simple.........

Or it says that it was worth repeating and that no addition is necessary.

Dot While I would agree that one must re-examine all of our previous ideas about the scripture I would not be dumping the bathwater just yet. I’ve undertaken several seminars on Ephesians in the past few years most were no more than rehash of the Corps notes. I did enjoy Peter Wades work on In Christ, Christ In, and Ken Petty’s The Blessed Life but those covered other sections than the topic at hand. Bare with me here for some background First the change to athletic terminology in the Way came about in the early 70s and became increasingly more prevalent. I just listened to a segment of a 1968 Advanced class this morning since we were discussing this subject, on Ephesians 6 and the focus was on armor in the spiritual fight not one mention of athletic terms.. While there are some athletic terms in the Bible I don’t think these are among them. You mentioned the Corps notes I’m guessing you speak of the ones from your Corps the 11th 81-82 your Corps did Ephesians for the second time the 4th did them in !974-1975 Often there are differences in those notes. While the athletic terminology had crept into the notes even as early as then there is a section that freely admits that there is no scriptural proof for their belief of their athletic terminology. They arrived at that conclusion due to a couple of things 1. the Aramaic word palakh which means labor or work which is used in many of the references to war, warfare, and soldier. 2. The belief from Romans that we are more than conquerors left them not knowing what to do with a war that was won This led to the statement The War Is Over, It Is Finished Jesus Christ Did It. While Paul as someone mentioned was familiar with the armor of the day and I can see a case maybe for a dual analogy here he also was well schooled in Old Testament Law, there is another truth here as well it was buried really only in a scripture footnote in the early notes. most probably skipped over it as just another scripture reference to support the thought being taught. The reference is Exodus 28:30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually. There is also mention of this in Deuteronomy 33: 8. Bullinger offers this note on the verse - The Urim and Thummin were probably two stones that were drawn out as a lot to give Jehovah’s judgment The Heb. Is lights and perfections light put by Metonymy for what is brought to light (ie guilt) and perfections by Metonymy for moral perfection (innocence) Thus when these two stones were placed in the bag of the breastplate and one lot drawn out it would give the judicial decision of the Lord. It became known as the breastplate of judgment. (You can read the companion Bible for a longer explanation). With these stones Aaron made right decisions they were worn close to his heart. The breastplate covered his heart. He continually with the help of the Lord, or in unison with God made right judgments While today we don’t have stones we do have spirit indwelling within us and it can govern our heart to make the same sound decisions with the help (and that is the key here) of God. We can not rely on our heart Psalms is clear on who we need the help from. Psalm 26:2 Examine me, O LORD, and prove me; try my reins and my heart. Psalm 27:8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek. I think Paul was clearly telling us that just as in the Old Testament when Aaron made right decisions we too, although in a different manner, can go to God with our breastplate of Righteousness (in all that Jesus Christ accomplished for us.)We can stand before him as sons not in the sense of hey I’m a SOG with all power(although there is a time for that as well) but more of hey father need a little help here can you help me with this problem, much like a child maybe would do with a problem at school maybe. The temptation for us is to be sidetracked by other things sometimes our love for other people even and to not seek or to seek and not follow-through or hear what he says. In the example that you gave of the abused wife often their love for the person prevents them from doing what God is telling them is the right judgment which is to leave to some place safe. In this day and time there are options although sometimes not easy ones. Aaron went before him with a quest for right decisions from the heart. So we do today. In the battle the enemy is the accuser but from God’s point of view we stand before Him in His righteousness. We need that armor clothing us or we will fall victim to the constant doubts that are hurled our way of our human failures. Also of interest are the two commands in Ephesians 1. To put on the armor (enduo) to clothe with And 2.To take up (analambano). All the armor of God The first three things are all things to be clothed - loins, breast, and feet. The last three things in vs 16 are all things that we must or are told to take up, shield, helmet and sword. They are preceded with the word analambano related to lambano receive something to the end of making it known. I think that is the practical application of the breastplate of righteousness, in the day of evil we are to go to God for right decisions His wisdom in the situation not with stones but with our hearts like Aaron in quest for help. And who ever said it , its right not something that we put on and off but a constant covering for our heart that we do continually as did Aaron in his day. Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually. In the later years of the Way these truths were lost we became the focus, and while we do have a active part in the process it remains quite clear that without the greater part we would be severely lacking.

Took an untrodden path once, where the swift don't win the race, It goes to the worthy, who can divide the word of truth. Took a stranger to teach me, to look into justice's beautiful face And to see an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. - Bob Dylan

"But To Live Outside The Law You Must Be Honest" _ Bob Dylan

I hope tears of joy Dot.......... They have there own homes now where they can sleep on the couch if they want to. Hey I should have it so good they don't even have to mow the lawn in their house. I was going to post some pictures of them enjoying their new space., but my scanner seems to be not wanting to work over the holiday vacation, perhaps when I get it back to work I'll post them. They have a new arrival a dog who was a nursing home dog for many years and now has medical issues that they could not afford to take care of and upkeep, they wanted a place for her to retire and live out her life. And so she came there . She served others for many years and now it is her turn to be pampered.

A few years ago Kenny Loggins on his "December" Album wrote the following liner notes I always thought it about summed it up. For many of us, the holidays are the mot emotionally bittersweet time of the year, fluctuating from the highs of reunions and the rekindling of fond memories, to the lows of alienation and loneliness. At first glance, too often we're fooled by the constant Christmas public relations into thinking everyone is having a wonderful time but us, a feeling as if we are on the outside looking in. The truth is, we all take turns feeling it all: not only the joys of Christmas, but also, at one time or another, the loneliness too. It is only by the love we give each other that we reconnect, find the sense of belonging, of homecoming we so desperately crave. Christmas is the one time of year that tradition insists will not be ignored no matter how hard we try to modernize, commercialize, or trivialize her. She continues to remind us of our brotherhood, our responsibility to each other and ultimately, our real connection to one another, no matter how alone we may feel. Because of Christmas.

Every once in a while an artist will write a new song about the "Joy of the Season" this years offering from Taylor Swift You can download the MP3 for free below: Here Taylor Swift - Christmases When You Were Mine Please take down the misletoe Cause I don't wanna think about that right now Cause everything I want is miles away In a snow covered little town My momma's in the kitchen, worrying about me Season's greetings, hope you're well Well I'm doing alright If you were wondering Lately I can never tell I know this shouldn't be a lonely time But there were Christmases when you were mine I've been doing fine without you, really Up until the nights got cold And everybody's here, except you, baby Seems like everyone's got someone to hold But for me it's just a lonely time Cause there were Christmases when you were mine Merry Christmas everybody That'll have to be something I just say this year I'll bet you got your mom another sweater And were your cousins late again When you were putting up the lights this year Did you notice one less pair of hands I know this shouldn't be a lonely time But there were Christmases when I didn't wonder how you are tonight Cause there were Christmases when you were mine You were mine

I don't know that all of their inventory is listed on the site. The paper catalog is different, they bought the site and inventory from Dolores , and more or less has what she carried. I'm sure it is till a work in progress............. The SNS MPS's are available from Here ThatYouMayKnowOrderForm.pdf

They are still around they bought this bookstore last year that was in CA EB

One thread that discusses *some* of Mrs. Wierwille's book in details is..... Outreach beyond vpw's congregation I am bumping it to the front. Thanks I will read it when I can .

So what did you want to talk about ? I found it interesting that he taught two classes at Pikes Peak Seminary while working on his doctor of theology degree - Radio Preaching Techniques and Peter the Preacher.

Merry Christmas Danny