WhiteDove

Ok so fear was your motivating factor... But I'm still intrigued why if you had made it through and believed that it was to train you for some secular job of your choice and you were done, why would you really care if they dropped you? Another response causes me to pause as well ....... losing however many years of your life that you had already dedicated to the way ministry, plus the time in-residence. Correct me if I'm wrong here and I'm sure someone will. but weren't those years already lost, I mean one can not go back and get them. If it was that miserable one would think cutting your losses then and there would be a better plan, rather than fighting to continue to loose more years. Just a thought......

Congratulations you posted on the wrong thread again!!! Or did you purposely write that which has nothing to do with the subject. Because you have no answers to the hard questions?

And for your weekend reading pleasure "My Life in a Cult " By Mr. Skyrider. Ok so for the sake of argument lets say I accept your claim that you did not know of the lifetime of service commitment prior to your arrival in residence it totally slipped by your attention you sunglasses and earplugs somehow prevented you from seeing or hearing about it. . Let’s say for the sake of argument that I'm willing to ignore all the printed matter, taped matter, the fact that absolutely no one thought to mention it your whole apprentice year and accept your claim as true. Then one day as Sky was warming his chair at the top floor of Wierwille Hall, while dozing lightly from sleep deprivation, stomach growling from lack of food, dreaming of that job he was being trained for at Xerox, he is awakened suddenly by the phrase Lifetime of Christian Service. He begins to smell a funny odor. Hmmmm smells like stink bait he says. (And he looks at VP and then back at his desk, and then back at VP and back at his desk, and he realizes that the judge is not gonna look at the 27x8x10 glossy pictures with circles an arrows on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence against him), Oh Wait! … wrong story. After which he is jarred back into reality as he watches the Xerox job begin to fade to black he realizes he just signed on to a Lifetime of Christian service. Now Mr. Sky thought he was going for a three hour tour, much like the folks who wound up stuck on Gilligan’s island, only a little longer. He thought after four years he would surely be the VP of Xerox drawing down the big bucks. He does his best Bart Simson impression HUH wait a minute dude, I know I signed that form and put it there, under the half a ton of garbage on Thanksgiving day but I didn’t know what I was doing. My shades were on to tight and I couldn’t see the print, and these darn ear plugs. At that point, upon which time you were presented with this revelation some weeks/months into the program, it would seem you had two choices. You could go to the office scream this is b*lls**t, I did not sign on for this, throw a fit and inform them that you were exiting the program. Or you could accept the terms the agreement as is, from that point on and continue growing to like stink bait. In fact eating a steady diet of it. Since it appears that is in fact what you did to finish the program, and in fact continued to accept the terms for year after year after year while enjoying MMMM Can I have some more stink bait then by default you accepted the terms. You clearly at that point knew the terms and you continued to go forward with the deal. Maybe not perfectly pleased but none the less accepted the terms. Yep! you said ,I’ll eat the bait MMMMMMMM this is good bait, Mr. Sky likes this, Can I have some more please? Now flash forward some 20 years later, poor Mr. Sky after having continued with the terms offered somehow perceives he is seriously wronged, maybe yelled at one to many times, maybe was told to move one too many mattresses and something snapped,( you can add offence of your choice here ____.) His dreams of a Xerox CEO long gone he realizes he’ll be hawking copiers for ten hours a day on the street now. And so he leaves angry, pi**ed off and claims he was deceived Wah Wah Wah. So I wonder? if you, as you admit were informed of the terms, (admittedly after the fact) and you continued forth under those terms can you really claim that your understanding was that it was not a lifetime of service? I mean come on they told you what the plan was, and you had a chance to do whatever you felt ok with. I think it is telling, that only years later after you have a bone to pick with them due to personal wrong, that you claim this lack of understanding. It appears that in fact at the point where you were informed of the terms, you accepted them by your continued participation for many years. This sounds like the guy who works for the greatest company in the world never can say enough good about it, until he gets fired that is, then all of a sudden his perception changes, funny how that works ,all the good just changes into bad somehow . Sounds more like sour grapes to me. If two weeks, a month, two months into the program they informed you of the deal and you continued to accept it, it seems a little lame to claim you did not know of the lifetime requirement, when in fact they told you of it, and if fact you continued knowing the terms for years enjoying the stink bait.

Not blanket statements , while your history fact tour is correct it does not negate the printed statements. And I did allow for the early Corps who I believe never had such. But please do enjoy your weekend there in" location unknown", I plan on enjoying mine hope the weather is as nice as it is here. Oh and I wanted to say I agree with your statement earlier Quote the corps program was static, not dynamic. In other words.......they never wanted to take into account that people GREW UP, and married, and had families, and careers, and extended family responsibilities, and homeownership duties, and A LIFE OUTSIDE TWI'S 'boot camp training.' I think that it was unreasonable to ask a person at the age of 18,19 to make a life choice, But in fact that is what they did, I don't blame anyone for changing their minds , but wouldn't it be more honest to say you know I was young and stupid, and I've changed my mind.

That could be true except for that little problem of the claim that they understood that they had no pressure to continue working after all they knew they were done. Can't know your done and know you have no obligation other than to "do your own thing" and feel pressure to coninue at the same time. If you are sure that you have no requirement to do something then you don't do it. You simply say I don't have to..... that was not the agreement and so I'm not

I understand and agree , I also understand that if the program was for four years and you were done, no implication that you had any further commitment to lead for them in any capacity then there would be no need to address any assignment issues period, either declining or accepting cause you were done. No obligation ,no assignment issues either way to address. Apparently they felt there were going to be ongoing assignments of some sort for their leaders they had trained and that they needed to clarify how that would work. despite the fact as you correctly pointed out what was said was not what was done.) Again If one believed they had no further responsibility to the program they would have just said Hey I'm done, I did not sign on for this and yet year after year they did not do so ,they did that which apparently hearing now was something they did not want to do. It seems logical that they accepted the fact that some form of continued leadership role and evaluation was warranted by their continued actions. My experience is that people don't do things they hate doing year after year after year when they aren't required to and they know and agree that they are not. Generally they do it when they feel they are supposed to by some previous understanding. It's easy to argue that what was said was not what they understood years later, but it becomes tough to take seriously when their actions prove otherwise. For years despite apparently not liking what they continued to do, they did it anyway, presumably when they knew or felt that they had no obligation to do so. That leaves little weasle room for the argument. Of course that would mean they would now have to admit that they did understand that there was some implication that they would have further commitments to serve , and that the record shows by their actions that they continued to accept this process despite not liking it because they did in fact understand that it was required of them to stay in the program. .

So the question still remains If you thought you were done ,finished after your four years of training, no obligation to lead in the way, exactly why did one feel the need to submit to yearly appraisals? Cause ya know when I was done with grade school after my training I don't remember going back each year for a teacher conference, generally because I did not feel I needed to since I was done. When I graduated from high school I did not return for a grade card either each year . Why you ask? cause I was done, program over. Now if one maintains that they were done upon graduation no more requirement to serve, doin' your own thing, fulfilled your obligation, exactly just why did everyone return for an assignment ,an evaluation, a work assignment at Corps week for something that was done ? Seems like there would be no point if one had finished. Now on the other hand when I was trained for my job I did return each year because I understood I was not done ,that is what I agreed to be trained for and as such I had a yearly appraisal. When I changed jobs I no longer went back for an appraisal. That seems the way it works for most people if your done you need not return if your not you do. So if you perceived you were done, just exactly why did you feel obligated to answer to something that you had finished? The only logical reason is that one felt that they had some requirement to do ,an obligation to fulfill, apparently contrary to what they would like to argue years later, they apparently felt a need to because they were not done ,and they knew it . I've heard many complain about having to work at Corps week year after year so just why did you do that if you were done, wouldn't one just say I'm done I'm not showing up I don't have to? That’s what I'd do if my old job called and assigned a schedule to me. Yet it seems again people continued to do so. The facts and actions despite the argument years later, don't line up. The only logical reason for continuing to submit to such actions is that someone felt it was a requirement to do so due to a commitment. Apparently they knew they were not done......

If it was perceived which it was not....... then again on the other side of the fence we have to hear their complaints and face their reports of personel attacks when we call someone a liar, I don't know ,when you consistently repeat the same thing and the information is not true my grandma always said that was the word for it , if one is lying it would seem ok to call them one, they earned the name , apparently the rules don't work the same both ways...... I'm just thinkin that they should If one is being misrepresented then one should have recourse the same as everyone else. I don't see that as thin skinned, just evening the playing field.

Oh but they would not have to jump now would they, you see they were all done ,you know doin their own thing ....... Nope no reason to check in all done after four years...So the question remains why did you check in ? maybe because you knew that you were expected to be serving? :blink:

So why did they drop them as Doojable said when they refsed an assignment, if they were happy with them being a nurse? , it appears they were not pleased, looks to me like they expected one to serve as they committed to for a lifetime. It doesn't look like they were happy as clams to have trained them only to have them not do what they were trained for...... Actually I believe I did and I have discussed this with Pawtucket as well back then.

Really cause I'm thinkin' there sure are a lot of folks including many here who put in 20 - 25 years or more and about three times as many elsewhere still working that seemed to miss that message.......... so much for the fizzle factor.

They must have missed that when I got the nametag I guess ,I guess when I got a yearly appraisal & assignment as well , and I suppose no one informed Craig when he sent that demand letter and dropped from active status letter as well.

I understand the word in culture bit , Really, after all they only neded so many staff and Limb leaders that does not eliminate work for the ministry, as I remember it was pretty hard to at least not be running a Twig I think that was the basic least requirement. And of course serve at functions and Corps week. Sounds like leadership for the ministry to me. Like Doojable said Quote A corps grad had to accept an assignment as having been handed to them by divine revelation. Some arguing would be acceptable - but resistance was futile, for the most part. How you were treated after you declined an assignment depended on many things - but not one of them had to do with what was best for you or your family. As I recall, for most folks, if you declined an assignment, you were considered non-corps. That of course brought you the divine calling of "Copped Out Corps." So I ask again why would one need to get an assignment each year if you were doing your own thing? If you were just being trained to get a job and have nothing to do with service to the Way why report? So why did you all those years if you felt that you were done? And if not accepting an assignment from The Way qualified you as non Corps why would that be prey tell if the goal was for you to do your own thing? Why would you be punished for doing what the goal (as you seem to think for the Program was)? Gee I'm bettin' that it's maybe because they thought you were supposed to be doing something for them and wern't..........

Your right I'm always concerned when things are misrepresented. So can you explain why a knowledge of the ministry was needed to train people to serve other places? You obviously are confused, you can retract you remark , or else I'll report it

Your right you don't have to - translated means you have no good answers other than you just think so .. which is obvious to any clear thinking person.

Perhaps you would like to address some of the questions I posed to explain how that happens? Perhaps some evidence to back up your claim. I offered several why it makes no logical sense even from a secular organization standpoint. The fact that they gave assignments and people accepted them pretty much tells a normal person that they must be associated to them in some form of leader capacity, people don't normally take orders from someone if they don't work for them

How exactly could they train people for these varying programs especially not knowing even what the programs were going to be? It's pretty ridicules to think they could train these people for other groups programs. Where do you see that ever happening?

The quality of the leaders is a different subject for another discussion/ or were you trying to sidetrack that fact that it is pretty obvious that the plan was to train people for service in the Way? I mean cause it makes pretty common sense tome from the literature alone.......

I think that if anyone had a argument for not knowing it would have been the first few Corps. I think it was very plausible that you had no idea what the program was. As you mentioned there was no referance points, and No apprentice year, nor literature to reference. But latter there was. It was pretty obvious where the leaders at the way tree level came from. I dare say not picked from Twigs... It was a rare exception that a leader was not a Corps Grad. .And the work load started in the apprentice year how one could get through that and not understand they would be trained to work for the ministry is beyond me. I don't kow of anyone I sponsored that thought they were being trained to join the Peace Corps or to serve in a church.

Really do you expect us to believe that the way would expend time, money, and energy, to train leaders for other groups ? That's the most ridicules thing I have ever heard Again I ask what would be the pay off for them to do this ? And It's pretty clear the expected pay offs for what they did. Any word can mean a lot of things when one wants to argue. So what?....... Context......... What do you think the purpose of quote: They've grown, and they really understand this ministry is for . Why would one need to really understand the ministry if they were being trained to be a leader in the Catholic Church? And how would they train such a leader in the Way? Why would an understanding of the Way be a requirement to the Peace Corps? It's pretty clear that they intended the program to train leaders for their organization. By the way that's pretty typical for most organizations, I don't know of any that train leaders for their competition on purpose. I don't disagree with what you said at all. In fact the very fact that they said they were giving assignments tells us from common sense that they intended the program to train leaders for their use. Really how could they give an assignment to the Peace corps? or to serve in a church? not within their power to do such a thing....... It's pretty clear the intent except for those who want to find a point of argument......

I never said the plan worked only that there was one.

Looks like he was right, maybe you did not get it yet,maybe you still don't. It appears that from the start they were interested in training leaders who would work for the ministry ,to lead in the field, to know the ministry . I suppose they wanted them to learn all that so that they could just go do their own thing. Yeah thats the ticket learn all about something so you can be useless upon graduation to the organization, Not likely what exactly would be the point ? the pay off for The Way in training people to be productive for someone else? It appears to me that they had a different view all along, and it was pretty clear. Well to most....... We started the first Way Corps then, the fall of 1969,especially for that purpose,to prepare leaders. This second year Corps they're terrific. There are nine of them who came in the fall of 1970 and will graduate this year in August after the Rock of Ages. Then they're ready to lead in the field. That'll be a great day. They've stood through thick and thin, They've grown, and they really understand this ministry. VPW - The Way Living in Love pg 235,236

You know I don't recall that it was ever a requirement until the 90s that one had to have no debt in life to remain in the Corps. While in residence that was the case ,common sense, how could one pay bills with no money. While I think not having a lot of debt hanging over ones head can be very beneficial and freeing, the fact remains it was not part of the program and I would have felt no need to abide by it. Now ,they can drop you from the recognized program , and they did many , but one does not necessarily need to accept their verdict either on the matter. If it is/was a calling of God then logically he can do the dropping if He see's fit. Personally I do believe it was a call of God, I also think many did not take it that way, for some it was just the next thing to do, the next step on the ladder. When the ladder broke they went by the wayside. Hint ....Ladders don't make good foundations...... I still see those many who were called serving ,despite what The Way thinks. There is plenty of room for the program to work.

I don't believe that to be true , you were not done , just starting more like it, you were done with the in residence training, as you mentioned It was a Lifetime of Christian Service. The key word there being lifetime. If you had been done you would not have needed a Corps evaluation every year , had you been done you would not have had a Corps assignment either. Nor would your presence be required at Corps advances, or Corps week. It should have been quite clear that one was far from done. Most people got that. some did not I guess. I think the facts support a strong case .......