WhiteDove

Ok then we'll call him a deserter then......... I agree they do , but there is a difference between a factual description of an event and a baseless accusation. One can't reflect their past experience into another biblical record and expect it to coincide. Therein might be the problem . As Christians we must accept what is written and not add our preconceived ideas about what it means based on something that happened to us. If God says he quit he quit, if he says he deserted then I'll take His word for it. By the way He also said he was useful [very helpful, profitable) I don't here anyone complaining about those words. No complaint about those labels either. Some people just look for things to find wrong. I think perhaps looking at why that is would be time better spent.

Actually now that I think about it, if you really want to pick at words I'd say Peter was being very kind in his choice of words. The NIV and NASB say he "deserted" them. Now people quit things all the time , but deserters, well they used to shoot them now didn't they ?

Peter was involved in the way ,past late 60s early 70s 1976 was when he parted company.. Just for the record You could if you wish , just make sure you add the rest of the story as Peter did in his. Which you seem to want to ignore. It's not a blanket lable it's a fact. It's pretty simple, when one starts something and does not see it through to the end he quits, valid reasons are not the issue as Peter Wade mentioned. What or why does not change that he did quit. What he did when he went home does not change it either. Look it's simple if I agree to run the Boston marathon you start at point A the start and run until you get to point B the finish . If one stops in between those points and drops out he quits, that's just the fact. Why that happened is another reason, one may have a good one maybe their legs cramped, maybe the fell and broke a leg , whatever the reason the fact is they quit. It does not matter that they went home and the next day continued running it still does not change the quit. it also does not pass judgment on anyone either it simply states the fact they quit. As he said John Mark failed but he was not a failure.

What's so hard about this I don't see In the record John Mark did quit ,he went part way on the first journey ,and then returned home. It does not say they had a disagreement and he split ways, it says he withdrew ( NIV and NASB say he "deserted" them.) He went back home It seems logical that one would not take along someone to help that had previously not worked out, someone that had left them high and dry so to speak, someone that had left them short of the needed manpower to complete the job. It does not say why he quit, but I believe that had it been for good reason Paul would have taken that into consideration and not have felt so strongly about not taking him. It's kinda like if you were supposed to pick me up from work , and just blew me off for no good reason. I'd feel differently than if you had, say for instance had a heart attack and couldn't because you were in the hospital. Next time I needed a ride depending on which case it was would affect my trusting you for a ride. If one goes part way in a race and stops he quits, just because you go home and run the next day does not negate that you quit the race. John Mark started a work and went home in the middle, he quit, that's just the facts , whether he had a reason, good or bad is irrelevant he still quit, what he did when he got home is irrelevant , he still quit the work he started with Paul. First Peter did not quit the Way in 67 you need to check your facts. Had you read what was said he was clear that people sometimes quit. the instances you posted are examples of quiting. What he said was.........

Well?????? Can I have the old WOWmobile? I'd like to upgrade.....

MMM linguini...... Can I bring my laundry along too? I noticed you have not been around, but you've been over there on that Yahoo group causing trouble I see.

Like I said, I'd say my viewpoints are alot different than yours.

Well that's the thing One persons stumbling block is anothers example sometimes. I don't think anyone needs to justify the choices of their conscience either. Nor do I think that they need to make something into what it was not, to make themselves feel better about their choice.

Never said they did, what I did say was that they trained people for the intent of working for them as leaders in their company ,in that example it is one in the same as the Corps program. The Corps program was promoted as a lifetime of christian servive. Walmart is not a promoted as lifetime of management that I know of that is the differance If you didn't like the terms then don't join.

Personally I would prefer that one read the entirety of what I said not the random red letter addition, I doubt we are on the same page. I don't believe that the program was ever intended to be a two year or four year program and then you were done thing. I don't believe that it was the intent to train people so that they could leave to serve in the peace corps or other ministries upon graduation. No more so than Walmart trains people expecting them to work for Kmart upon completion.

Make it a four.some..

They had Spike for some years.

I guess I was thinking of this ,while you are correct in that you never mentioned an age. I guess it was my understanding of what you wrote. I suppose I assumed from GREW UP that you were speaking of a younger age followed by got married ,and had families, and careers , things typically that happen as one grows up from a young age. In light of all ahead and the unknown possibilities that could or would happen it seemed you were stating that it was static and as such an unreasonable request because it did not take into consideration a persons life changes. I was never in doubt that VPW made the request it was his program, ,but that was the deal good or bad, no one had to accept it. Me personally I try to honor that choice just like I would honor a business deal whether it was a good one or a bad one.,others may not choose to , as for me if I agreed then I hold to the agreement.

I kept it all the tapes ,the flipcharts, the white styrofoam cups with lipstick and chew marks, , the folding chair, the perfectly square cheese cubes (although they are looking a little fossilized)

First, White Dove, I wish to call your attention to the fact that the quote you posted and represented as having originated with me, were, in fact, the words of someone else. The first quote I posted was yours the second was not as I said it was in responce to post #6 which was Oldies post. I addressed both points. Secondly, I never complained that people from other programs contributed to this thread. In fact, if you would take the time to read the questions a bit more thoroughly, you would see that I actually INVITED participation from other program. I never said you complained that people from other programs contributed to this thread. What I said was that you asked for input from those who had participated in other programs as to advanced notice That's what you asked for ,which I gave as a participant. Then your responce was it doesn't apply because you were only fellow laborers, Thats not what you asked for your request asked for other programs period ,not other programs that apply only to you. Read what you wrote. My first question, which is multi-faceted, is this: How many, who participate here, went into their respective programs, whether it was WOW, Fellow Laborers, Way Corps or other, with any kind of advance notice that the programs were designed, in part, to "toughen you up"? Third, although you have shown that "physical training" was at one time referenced in the Way Corps literature, you have failed to demonstrate how that is relevant to the type of "toughening up" that is the focal point of this thread. Again I responded to question 1 which had no perimiters in it about abuse or bulling, if it was your intent to add that to the question you should have .I answered the question as is . It was relevant to the question as you stated it had you wanted to include other factors such as bulling, or abuse you should have included them in the question. There is none in question 1 read it..... The poster who prompted me(on another thread) to begin this thread, implied that I was a weakling, whining about being a victim and that I should have known ahead of time that psychological bullying was part of the process. Actually I see where you might read it that way ,however if you re read it you will see that what he said was not about you ,but a frame of mind like an I can do attitude...... I think he was saying the old some see the glass half empty some see it half full perspective, likewise some see themselves being picked on some see themselves being challenged or motivated... If you don't believe that this sort of thing happened or that, if it did, it was a beneficial component of the programs, just come out and say so instead of trying to change the focus to something unrelated. On this we agree I know that this happened, I don't believe in the cases that bulling, or abuse happened served any purpose in the program.

If you did not wish to discuss the Way Corps or other programs then why did you ask for it. Had your question limited it to Fellow laborers then it would have been a different story You included the Way Corps , You can't include it and them complain that you received an answer.Second the other question was not from the other thread as well it was from this one page 1 post#7 Again the post was in responce to the one above it post#6 which also dealt with the Way Corps reading the context you will see that the posters also mentioned the Way Corps. And the question asked as I bolded any program, that covers The Way Corps I believe. Both posts mentioned the Way Corps apperantly that was the context of the thread at least everyone seemed to think so since it obviously kept comming up. ......... life must be balanced spiritually, mentally, and physically In that context thats what I believe toughen up means which was your other question Yes I do think it is a good thing. It's always good to grow (toughen up) in those areas of life.

Hey Jen-o It is quite obvious that you don't, let me refresh you. I hardly "came out of nowhere", in fact I answered the question at the start of the thread, I think that's called on topic. My response was limited to two questions, (which I believe that I clarified on some page) The one from the start of this thread which was...... And this question........ To which my response was: For the record : from The Way Corps A Lifetime of Christian Service Physical training is a valuable part of The Way Corps training. Because the Christian believer is a three - part being, his life must be balanced spiritually, mentally, and physically in order for him to be at his best. Through participation in LEAD Outdoor Academy International, Way Corps students learn to develop mental, flexibility and physical stamina. Students build an attitude of "I can do ,therefore I do" and learn to live abundantly. I'd say that qualifies as toughen up The questions asked for advanced notice and for references in promotional literature for which I provided such. It has nothing to do with any other post , which I again clarified on some page. They asked for the information I provided the answer. Don't shoot the messenger when you ask for the message........ These brochures were distributed to interested parties before entering residence ( that's why they call them promotional brochures by the way) It appears to me one could expect some physical toughening up from the wording, if you are developing physical stamina one would conclude that it was not there prior, I'd say they planned to toughen up your physical stamina. Had you read the posts you would see that I made no comment as to whether the program worked, or if I thought it was a good idea. I answered the questions posed only, which were ...Was there advanced notice ? Yes, and show me where it was in the literature, which I did. Now as to your question.......... do you think it's a good thing that twi tried to toughen people up?!? In the context that the statement was made in. ......... life must be balanced spiritually, mentally, and physically Yes I do think it is a good thing. It's always good to grow (toughen up) in those areas of life. Now don't you have some cooking or laundry to do?

Hey Socks didn't they hire the lady from town that used to do the food service for the old College of Emporia for awhile that first year. Talk about border line institutional quality, You got mystery meat? , We had peanut butter sandwiches excuse me sandwich and some soup with some vegetable matter dragged through it for coloring. We used to go into the Country Kitchen for meals. I remember working with HE Wierwille one day and after working hard ,and that was an understatement He refused to serve the meal after looking at what they made. He called the Pizza Hut which at the time was one of the few places to eat there and booked the party room. We all trucked down the street and had an evening of pizza and beer.

This happened Yesterday: So will we see WayOil stations soon? Now here's an idea for putting all that ABS to work, I figure we all deserve a few gallons.... Hey they could get rid of all the old bumper stickers that no one wants at the same time... CLICK

I didn't realize you worked in Cambridge, my sis works for Harvard and I worked for Harvard for a few months long ago. Nice place just across the back bay on the Charles river. I'm guessing you were in Harvard Square, Central Square,or maybe Cambridge Common. There is a big Irish memorial in Cambridge Common an Irish Famine Memorial, Taken the red line there many a time there are some nice restaurants in central square and usually some music of some sort. Faneuil Hall over the bay in Boston is another great center of fun, food, and music.

For what its worth Groucho I think you are correct, depending on the year you could request assignments as well. Although if your plan and their plan were not one in the same one could expect "some resistance". In any case some level of service to the organization was expected, more or less demanded, even if it was simply running a Twig. Although I remember a few exceptions to that as well.

Thanks for clairifing your post I have no disagreement with what you stated, I know of examples just like the ones you stated. That was never in dispute. Like I said I never claimed the plan was a good one only that there was one. My dispute was with expectations.

Oakspear ,Socks we are pretty much in agreement as Skyrider brought up it was unreasonable to require people at that age level to make a commitment of that length. I never said it was a smart move only that it was what they asked for. It does seem incredible to think that going through the Way Corps did not include an expectation that the graduate would serve in some capacity in TWI. I mean one look around at the way former graduates were being used and worked should have offered a clue, it was pretty clear and easy to someone even on the field to figure out. I'd would have thought those in residence would have been a quicker study...... I mean come on pretty much from the intermediate class on the focus changed to giving and service to the ministry, did you really think that the top leadership training program came with no stings attached? Sorry I just don't believe at that time most believed that. They may now want to claim it due to a change of feeling. I look around at the kids 19 today they have trouble deciding whether to buy the regular or the bonus CD version of the album. I doubt at times we were much better at choices. I don't even know as Socks mentioned that one could even blame the leaders, if one was so inclined to. I think many of them were struggling to do a job they were not up to, I'm not sure that many choices were just poor ones, not intentionally bad. Further I was not advocating that anyone should feel remorse for not living up to the commitment, it's too long ago and far away to really matter. After all the world did not end and the devil did not swoop down and kill them off after all.