WhiteDove

Mark good point, In fact he did mention that booklet in the 1964 tape as sugested reading. I had sorta forgotten about the little studies in abundant living booklets. I bought a set at the ROA 73 in the sheep barn where they had the bookstore they were closing them out since the books were in print. . I dug mine out today it is not dated but it was published by the Way Incorporated which was before the Way International I think they changed over in 73 - 74 ?

Ok, I guess I missed your point maybe, but it appears though that you are saying that because someone did not have access to information it justifies that they could just say whatever, as fact. I'd be inclined to think that if one did not know ,they would say nothing or at least offer a theory. Hey I don't have access to the NASA space logs either but I would not say that astronauts had affairs in space just because I did not have access to the information. Sorry but I think that is flawed reasoning. I bet there are a few people here that have 200 series tapes by the way. I know of some that do! I too started tapes in the early 600s 1973 but also picked up many back tapes along the way. A few survived on reel to reel only they are pre Way International from the old Way of Kansas.. Somewhere along the way maybe 1989? I bought a compiled set of all the SNS and tape of the months to fill in some missing ones, from CA where some people assembled a master set and duplicated them. By the way I think about anyone that wanted to could have access to the tapes now they are on eBay all the time on MP# all of VP's teachings on 14 disks for about $99.00. So it is not a question of having access but if one wanted access. By the way they are cleaned up as much as possible so they actually don't blow chunks ,at least as bad as they used to. (As far as sound that is ) Mark Gl*ck*n did some work on many tapes before he passed away and Barbara and some others have taken up on that project. I could tell you more about both of those projects including how the Wierwille children were involved but since everyone knows that people in Kansas don't know anything past the border I won't bother. Now if one did not have access to the tapes there is another way to checkout this claim and actually it pinpoints the time line better than the tapes. In Mrs. Wierwilles book Born Again To Serve. Page 205 On June 10th of 1956 the first board meeting was held. At this meeting the revised constitution and bylaws were read there is a copy in the book ,and among the Way testimonies of belief are #2 We believe in one God manifested as Father ,Son and Holy Spirit. #3 We believe that Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the virgin Mary, and is true God and true man. So we know as of the 10th of June 1956 VP still held to the Trinity in belief. Now on page 223 Mrs. Wierwille writes about the boards meeting to decide if they should join the National Association of Evangelicals. VP thought that being a part of a group might be stimulating and add credibility she writes. That was June 15th 1958 but the decision was tabled for more study. On April 5th of 1959 they again met to consider the joining of the Evangelical Association at which they decided not to, because after a full study of the organization they found that their very basic doctrinal statement included the belief of the deity of Jesus Christ. Mrs. Wierwille adds "by this time in the ministry, we knew that this was not biblically accurate." So sometime between the meeting of June 10th of 1956 and the meeting of April 5th of 1959 VP changed his view of the trinity. I'd lean toward 1957 early 58 for this reason, also in the book was a letter that Uncle Harry wrote about PFAL to people on page 222 Where he wrote " I want to tell you that every time VP teaches a class it gets better and better and these Bible truths that he shows us from the Word of God become more astounding than ever. There are many other truths that God has revealed to him since the original class and he has added them to the other teachings. That letter is dated June 9th 1958. While it is not concrete it looks like this was the time frame for the trinity change. In any case we do know now from factual accounts that the change came about somewhere between June 10th of 1956 and the meeting of April 5th of 1959 so somewhere in those 34 months is where the change was made. Again a case in point that while personal testimony is all and good it is at times flawed due to various reasons. But when documented with hard facts we can see if indeed it stands the test of truth.

So we can agree: 1 That there is no doubt that VPW was a Trinitarian at one point. 2 That at some point he changed his view. 3 That none of us know exactly at what point in time exactly that occurred. That leaves this statement........... You based that assumption on one misspeak in a "windup" at the end of a session. And this is a good case in point why we can not just accept everything someone says as truth. Why factual evidence is important to truth. I doubt that the facts will allow us to pinpoint the exact moment when VP changed his view but it would narrow down the time frame maybe . I'll refer you to SNS 296 recorded 12/6/64 and SNS 297 12/4/66 Both titled One God. Both were done before the date of the PFAL class that was recorded in 1967 In SNS 296 recorded 12/6/64 Is the following quote from VP "Now someone will say to you Dr. Wierwille does not believe in the trinity. No I don't believe in the Trinity. " "Why not just believe God's Word where it says there is only one God." Clearly the facts show that at that time some three years before the date you speculated that he believed in the Trinity he very clearly stated that he did not. Clearly when person testimony is collaborated with hard evidence the picture becomes clear that the personal assumptions were unfounded.

So do you have any supporting reason why you think your theory is true? Or did you just assume that it made sense? Because it looks to me from the clip that it was indeed just a misspeak. So are you saying someone told you to quote "Put a spin on it" Or was that perception now today years later?

:blink: Right, But if I know John it probably applies to the Christian Family and Sex thread rather than here :blink:

You guys actually got on a bus ? Wow!!! cause I been standing here at this bus stop for some time now and haven't seen one. Well except there was that one going to Troll Ville. Hey wasn't that a Monkeys song ? Take the last train to Troll Ville and I'll meet you at the station......Hey Hey hey....... Seriously maybe you can swing by and pick me up here I don't mind the back of the bus us so called Wierwille apologists know our place in society. Oh yeah there is this nice black lady who is waiting for the Born Again Bus here too. been here since 6:00 AM this morning. Maybe she can come too we can all see the wizard together...... She's been singing all day about it. Six o'clock in the morning waiting at a bus stop the rain was pouring down, I was leaving again I hated to turn and run this time but I had a thing or two upon my mind Things might be better on down the line , Maybe just a little better I was a drift in a sea of uncertainty I was sinking like a stone in a pool of need Lost in a crowd and cried out loud for someone to rescue me And now I'm pressing my way up to higher ground A certain destination where peace abounds I once was lost but praise God I'm found Since I've been Born Again...........

Hey T sounds like you have enough material for a book What the h*ll may as well.

We have a winner! Thats probably the best simple definition so far

Interesting thought! I don't know though they were pretty PO'd at him, maybe in time.

Well maybe but apparently from the tone some people missed the first beating. So for those with God on a Stick a refresher course was in order. Disclaimer: No animals were harmed in the making of this post.

Agreed what I meant was it was a change for them, to return to teaching personally . In that sense it was a mesage of change, at least in practice. But it was not at least for the most part new in content, as you said. I'd have to look at some of his teachings before I could say all though.

I'm not sure Jesus was really Jewish either. Certainly he was raised that way, but I was raised Catholic as well. I don't know that it defines one how they were raised. While he did honor many traditions, he also spoke out on many as well. I see him as more transitional. Certainly the Jewish leaders of the time did not see him as a follower, and I think they were right he wasn't. He brought a message of change to the Jewish people one that many did not embrace.

I'd say that your first statement was true, I can hardly remember this class. I suppose it was all about sex if you left out about half the sesions Session three alone is a scripture sheet., session 14 is about dating. Session 5 Virtuous woman While the quality of the information is debatable that it was all about sex seems from the content not.

First of all David the thread you speak of was about a book promotion. Clearly they were offering a book for sale and a story, as such I don't recall that book reviews were a protected thread if that becomes the case that's fine as well. Second I never said Oh do you have proof? What I said was that when deciding which information to believe in the vast amount here, one usually utilizes certain factors to help in determining what if any information is true, part true or untrue. And in the absence of hard evidence ie: facts, tangible things what one is left with is a story, a personal testimony which in and of itself is not documentable. As such I ,ME Myself will not blindly accept such information as true. In short I don't believe everything someone chooses to say as truth. By the same standard that does not make the information false or a lie either just undocumentable. That leaves the hearer with basically a flip of the coin heads or tails do I accept it or not. By the way that same method is used toward posters who pour their heart out posting stories of favorable Way experiences. People question them immediately . The truth is if you post here or any other board for that matter ,you should expect that people are going to discuss what you said. If you are that sensitive to discussion one probably should think about providing such information on a discussion board. Perhaps you don't consider such factors in accepting words on the internet but I do. It is a well tried method in life, the law enforcement officers do the same take statements and weigh them against hard evidence , just because someone pours their heart out does not mean that what comes out is truth. Questions, consideration, motives all help in getting to the truth.. There are all sort of things that influence that in life and on the internet not limited to agendas, money, revenge, and time factors, and just some people that like to stir the pot. Also in those situation the police have the ability to view and consider other factors that are not available on the computer such as body language, and influences of drugs or alcohol and mental health The fact that things get corrected here at times speaks to the fact that everything posted is not always correct. Each can feel free to use whatever standards they wish from a coin toss to documentation in deciding what if any information they accept as truth. PS As far as snippy comments I'll just point out as others have attested to that the snippy comments that started the derail were not posted by me. I've said before it's dishonest to punch someone in the nose and make them out to be the bad guy when they defend themselves.

I would expect that all opinions would be allowed a voice ,one can either agree or disagree with what is posted but I see no indication that one side of the story is all that will be told. As far as wanting to , I'll always want to have a voice it is another of those wonderful rights that we enjoy here in the good ole USA. I'll always speak up to protect those rights that so many have given their lives for.

Good point waysider I would guess that would include discussions on feeding instructions for alleged trolls as well in the meta-discussions.

No the statementt was: I don't believe that it was openly presented ,last I looked one had to register for the class and pay the fee. Those two things should have made one think about what one was registering for. The class was Christian Family and Sex. I don't believe that it was ever presented as every segment every word was about the Bible. As lacking as it may have been which is another issue, there were sections that were not Bible related per say. It's foolish to imply that every word of every teaching was supposed to have some biblical referance.

Next thing you know Mulder and Scully will be finding black oil in VP 's eyes.

The point being the ones that complain the loudest generally start the ball roling doing the exact thing they complain about. Don't worry Exie I'll never think the same way

FOOD????? Now you did it David that Pig Psalmie will probably show up and wreck the buffet. It's hard to argue with your mashed potatoes in your eyes.....

:blink: Man I knew that THOUGHT SCREEN HELMET would come in handy. Here

I know what you mean it seems to happen many times when someone posts anything positive about their Way experience. It's annoying I agree David when they do that ,but I wouldn't ask for new rules just for that. It's a tradition since day one, nothing new

I'm glad wolf dog is back home. I wouldn't want Froggie to get his legs pulled off and roasted for being in the company of a rumored Wierwille apologist. The last person who tried to be fair minded did not fare so well here.

If we vote do the so called Wierwille apologists get to vote several times like they do in Florida since there are so few left here?

I'd say it is a combination of things ,one being that many people have a good idea where they were heading and have reasonable reason to think that their life would have ended up in that direction. I know years ago periodically VP would in teachings stop and ask for a show of hands of those that contemplated suicide. The obvious correlation was that they were saved by the word they learned, God ,or indirectly The Way. I think there are other possibilities as well and with out some study those conclusions in every case would be flawed. Although I have no doubt that some were in fact changed. Add to the mix the articles in magazines such as Heart and the Way magazine the stories of people and it was an easy conclusion to arrive at . Also there are a few songs such as Dean Ellenwoods "The WOW Ambassadors " where he shared his own story.