WhiteDove

I think it's "derogatorio", but I'll have to check my AC syllabus... geo. Not familiar with that one. Please tell us more. Tell us more.

Very Cool Tom Enjoy and a we want a full report. No hurry tomorrow by 9:00AM will be fine. Have a great time and try not to think of all the fun you will be missing here.

I hope she is skiing with us too. Bad Dove Bad.....

Maybe so Tom I hope so....

Zixar I must agree that it is the way the poll was written. No offence Hey I tried one of those once and it was a disaster. One thing for sure the first one I see that works I am going to copy and template it in case I need it later. I think dmillers was more fairly spread IMO. But then not everybody liked his either. You can't please everyone. That aside you are correct there is something wrong here and we should not need a poll to see it. It is right in front of us you can see it in many of the posters words and in the silence of others and that is a sad thing to me. If we could see their faces I'd guess we would see it there too. I like it here that is why I come most every day. We will never all get along but honesty,respect,speaking truth (and I am not speaking about the Bible kind) and kindness are in short supply at times. And that is an alarming thing to me. That is mostly why I left the Way it was the doublespeak,untruthfulness,hurting people and other actions. (I was going to say nonChristian but really it's just nonhuman at least decent ones) Maybe don't throw in the towel yet at least wait till Paw gets the logo ones done up then you can do it right. If it is downhill that we are heading, just means we have a climb ahead. Sometimes the end of the road is but a bend once you get there up close.

Searcher Maybe reconsider and hang in here awile I know of nothing you have done to anger anyone here. I did notice over on the JW online site you posted about me and since we have never met or talked I wonder how you arrived at these conclusions. Not a real big thing but I would think maybe we can talk sometime and make sure that what you believe is based in truth not opinion. I have none of you because I don't know you so I can't speak of you. Hope you stay around so that we may learn.

Tom you make it sound like the ones(plural) that left just woke up one day (conviently last week) and out of the blue just decided to say hey I think after years of being here I think I will go hang out elsewhere. Please... But we do agree it was their decision in the end.

And that is why they call it "The Present"!!

I hear ya Psalmie!! By the way I think I saw a couple of your pigies hanging around the corner on 35th street.

Happy Birthday

Bowtwi Oh he's always around somewhere sounds like he has been spending time with you the last day or so.

OZ Girl Since the title of this thread is Hate to tell you this. Well I hate to tell you this but b*tch slapping of posters is not allowed in the cafe. However pie throwing is acceptable.

Ok so now that I have your attention Hey Check this out...

Dot my friend We have not always seen eye to eye But you are always in my heart... This one's for you my friend.... Because I Believe In You They ask me how I feel And if my love is real And how I know I'll make it through. And they, they look at me and frown, They'd like to drive me from this town, They don't want me around 'Cause I believe in you. They show me to the door, They say don't come back no more 'Cause I don't be like they'd like me to, And I walk out on my own A thousand miles from home But I don't feel alone 'Cause I believe in you. I believe in you even through the tears and the laughter, I believe in you even though we be apart. I believe in you even on the morning after. Oh, when the dawn is nearing Oh, when the night is disappearing Oh, this feeling is still here in my heart. Don't let me drift too far, Keep me where you are Where I will always be renewed. And that which you've given me today Is worth more than I could pay And no matter what they say I believe in you. I believe in you when winter turn to summer, I believe in you when white turn to black, I believe in you even though I be outnumbered. Oh, though the earth may shake me Oh, though my friends forsake me Oh, even that couldn't make me go back. Don't let me change my heart, Keep me set apart From all the plans they do pursue. And I, I don't mind the pain Don't mind the driving rain I know I will sustain 'Cause I believe in you. B Dylan

HAPPY BIRTHDAY GRIZZ

Excathedra I liked your first title better.... Having a caring heart is nothing to be ashamed of. I have nothing but respect for you. Since you like Dylan I'll leave you with this that he wrote,a glipse into that soft side he so rarely shows. "I hurt easy, I just don't show it You can hurt someone and not even know it The next sixty seconds could be like an eternity......"

HOLY ARACHNOIDS BATMAN

Goey Thanks for the reply my concern was not in your paper which as I said was very well put together only on the quote. It appeared to me from the sentence that is what you said that's why I asked.

Dot Unless they have another ordination yes they should stop. Really though that might be a clue if they still need to be addressed in that manner as to their spirituality. I have to say most of the exway clergy that I know don't feel that need in fact I can't think of any that use a Rev title except when they have to for legal reasons.

Ex-10 the question was not about mainline churches I would agree with you there. It was about fellowships. Quote Q. So, suppose I think Raf has a gift ministry and I think he should be ordained and I run a fellowship.... Can I ordain him to the end he can get privellages from the "state"? Or can only an ordained person ordain another person? If you have done the paperwork to establish yourself as a legal church then you can ordain people. I did not say that I agreed with that or it was my assessment just a legal fact. Anotherwords could but not necessaraly should. Re The Way I said Quote: Ordination from a church decision is up to the elders,directors,trustee's or other governing body. It as you know does not always have anything to do with God. Money,political reasons,and pressure often were or are factors. The Way was no different and you are wise to question and consider these in regard to ministers. looks like we are in agreement there to me.

Dot re: some of your questions Q.Can they go to the STATE of Ohio and present their cases and ask for a defrocking? Or does TWI have to do it? The way has already filed with the state of Ohio any former clergy that no longer are part of the way are on file as defrocked or no longer recognized as ordained. Q.(Now, surely we can say that God ordains.... But that opens another arguement.... If TWI was a cult a nutty, goofey, cult promoting its weird sexual beliefs then I QUESTION if God was behind (some) the ordination to begin with....) Ordination from a church decision is up to the elders,directors,trustee's or other governing body. It as you know does not always have anything to do with God. Money,political reasons,and pressure often were or are factors. The Way was no different and you are wise to question and consider these in regard to ministers. Q. So, suppose I think Raf has a gift ministry and I think he should be ordained and I run a fellowship.... Can I ordain him to the end he can get privellages from the "state"? Or can only an ordained person ordain another person? Any church group can ordain people it would be in their mission statement that you would file with the tax exempt paperwork with the IRS. The state would recognize that as a church and accept the ordination certificate. As I said in KS you will meet with a judge who afterwords will issue you a state certificate. They are not interested in getting involved though in religious squabbles so as long as you are not some obvious nut they will most likely accept the paperwork.

Goey Very well written paper. I do have a question about your statement. I wonder if you can speak for "the offshoots",just because they came from the background of a clergy laity system does not mean that they still follow that way of thinking. Are you saying that no people in offshoots are functioning or assuming offices of leadership or service that none are appointed to pastor or teach. Thats a pretty broad statement which would imply that you have personally researched each offshoot.

Generally the consensus is that ordination is a public recognition of a God directed event. Similar to a wedding which is a public recognition of a decision made by two people.

David yeah right thats why he makes sure that he names people by name just so we don't get confused don't ya know not to cause any hurt. What a nice guy always looking out for us......