WhiteDove

Hey Rascal I think the pond at Emporia is available to use now that it is a park area..... :D-->

Sorry I just don't see the attraction. I wouldn't walk to the mailbox if there were a case of free ones sitting there. Well then again maybe if it were trash day....

Catcup You might wanna have Geek check the Greek on your literal according to experience translation I think you may have missed a few words between bread alone.... and pie hole....

I really dislike the word offshoot. The Way was an offshoot of Bullinger, Stiles,Welch,and others. They were offshoots of their teachers and so on. So who was the original? Every one from Adam and Eve forward? Maybe we are not offshoots of each other maybe we are all a part of the original source? Besides isn't that Waybrain to label things and put them into neat little boxes? Hopefully we have moved on from that habit.

James was living here in KS I saw him at a funeral maybe two or three years ago.

VPW did (play)at some of the family tables at ROA 73 somewhere I think I still have a photo along with some others from Sidney in a book . As I remember he played a song called Here' Rattler about a snake. Does anyone else find this sorta funny.

Hey how about this one? You could pick her up when your at the Wedding in Nebraska. http://www.hua.org/Dogs-For-Adoption/Trilby.html

yes I believe so..... :)-->

Well at least we agree on something !!! :)-->

Actually not! You just said it. We agree!! You refuse to see any truth about VP except his actions. You refuse to acknowledge any of his words as true because of his actions, even though they may in fact be true it does not matter because of his lifstyle. I am sad :(--> that hatred has blinded truth but that is your choice I wish you could see each for what they are seperate things. Perhaps one day that will happen I'll hold hope. Maybe jesus can show you how he stood against evil but not at the cost of forsaking those things that are truth. I wish you well on your Journey....

Coolwaters You can place me into what ever catagory you see fit that is your right. One would think though that it should at least resemble something about me if one was honest. I gave you the definition of an apologist. No where have I posted any apology for or about VPW. The records speak for themselves. I agree It's not worth anything at all to me enough to argue you over it with you. I was not looking to argue any point merly to bring to attention a fact and keep the record honest. Quote:Fourth, saying that you presented evidence that makes what I posted about my eye-witness account(s) (as well as those of others) 'not true' is arguing in defence of a cause...which, in this case, is, by your own words, presenting your version of the 'truth' about veep. I never discussed your eyewitness accounts. I'll say it again I posted a post informing Belle that perhaps she had some wrong information. You keep implying that I was posting some version about VP I did not.Only A LETTER THAT HE WROTE IT IS A FACT it makes no judjement comment about his life which was your issue you added into the mix. VP's life or lifestyle was not a part of my post only what he said he believed in the letter. You did imply that the letter was not valid what else is the point of this? Quote; (I gotta tell ya, though, I have a letter, too, with what appears to be an identical signature...and that's been pooh-poohed away by other veep apologists as "just a peon responding to letters Dr. didn't have time to bother with himself"). Sixth, I again say that what veep may have written or allowed to make it to tapes is not the total reality of who VPW was and what VPW did. Never said it was . But it is a place to start ,one can learn from people's words about the person. See now we are back to what he did again it is you that keep adding this to the mix. which is the problem here VP did this or that so nothing truthful can be spoken about him unless it is bad. It is two seperate issues and each side of the coin is just that. Typical tactic when someone posts somthing that appears in favour of the Way. Actually not even in favour anything just not seething with hate. Don't address the issue lets tak about what he did. Incase you have forgotten here is the issue we were discussing: Quote:MikeVPW saw that we were drifting away from Christ and the pure Word so he taught things like this: "Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it. Wherever you have to go to learn about him, do it. The one great driving force of your soul should be to know Jesus Christ. Who is he? The only way you’ll ever know who Jesus Christ is is to come to God’s Word. The Word makes known Jesus Christ. The Word tells you who he is. It is that Word which brings you to a knowledge of salvation." To which Belle replied: quote: "Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it. Unless it involves talking to him or talking to people outside TWI or reading books not published or sanctioned by TWI. To which I pointed out was not what VP believed about praying /talking to Jesus and offered a letter as proof. Quote : When was the last time you read Titus 1? It's a good start to get a biblical look at a man like VPW. Verse 15 says, "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (I looked up 'works'...and it is basically what a person does in his/her daily life to earn a living.) There are many, many testimonials in many places on the 'net of victims of veep's rape coach. If that isn't enough to convince someone that they'd best reconsider veep's 'truth', then they don't want THE truth. Here it is again this was not the topic. It was a letter. Charles Manson wrote letters He also killed people that does not make the letters he wrote untrue. Never disputed VP actions show me a place... Why can't we stick to topic about what VP said about praying and talking without having to hear about what he did like it is some new revelation? Quote; You want to play semantics with this subject (talking v praying), feel free. I will it is important to understand what you are doing in life. Words have meanings and they are not interchangable at will because you dislike someone. Quote: Now, White Dove, after all that's been said and done, what have you 'proven'? Well I did not set out to prove anything for what seems like fourtith time, Only to keep the facts straight about the subject at hand Prayer and Talking. But I'll give it a shot... Let's see that your anger will not allow you to stay on topic. If someone mentions how nice the grass looked at the Way you will feel bound to change the conversation to what VP did which somehow will explain why the grass did not really look good. Grass looks good - VP did this two subjects. Admitting the grass looked nice does not imply that VP actions were right.. or offer any APPOLOGY. That VP did not believe that talking and praying are the same thing. That no where is any real evidence that he did. At least to date. Only an assumption that his words on paper could not be right because he did blah blah blah... so somehow that means that words on paper can not be true.. That without evidence to show the opposite is true a letter in hand is worth any speculation in the bush....

Quote: Now about this whole 'truth' thing... First and foremost, 'truth' when it comes to twi is often presented exactly with way brain: not telling everything one knows (it was often said to me in twi, "telling the truth doesn't mean telling everything you know...it just means being truthful with what you do tell") ignoring evidence of eye-witnesses...one's own, most often belittling and badgering those who present different 'evidence', and if all else fails, reject a person's ability to think, reason and run their own lives. Yes, veep wrote a letter. Yes, you posted that letter as evidence (I gotta tell ya, though, I have a letter, too, with what appears to be an identical signature...and that's been pooh-poohed away by other veep apologists as "just a peon responding to letters Dr. didn't have time to bother with himself"). The very fact that veep did not stop his underlings from demanding twits believe exactly the opposite of what he put forth in your 'evidence' is 'proof' he really didn't quite believe his own words.End Quote: You speak of truth in the way. I don't believe that I was! Iit is a different subject.. You accuse me of being a VP apologist yet you have no proof of such. Show me in those threads where I offered any apology for anything VP did . In fact any of my posts you wont find it..... Nice try when you have no proof discredit the truthbearer also a little Wayish I'd say. Apologist- n - A person who agues in defense or justification of another person or cause. (Webster) The truth is there is a letter that clarifies by his words what he believed to be true. You have offered no evidence to the contrary, Only I don't like what it says so it is wrong . It does not agree with how I feel . Sorry at the end of the day in a court a signed letter will win over I don't like the person so I made up whatever I want to discredit him. I am well aware that VP had people to answer his mail so do Rock Stars ,Actors,and CEO's of most companys. So What? I think you will find they represent the person in question not some radical idea they decided to say in their stead. You also are aware of how micromanaged things were in the Way any letter sent out with VPW's name on it would have been checked and rechecked you can bet. You yourself admit that VP was careful to watch what he put in print. Now you say he was not/ Which is it? Your grabbing at straws here. Quote: What Belle said is a perfect example: veep was also once a trinitarian and 'taught' from that point of view. The man constantly changed his mind. If nothing else...but there was much else...as provided by the testimony of eye-witnesses. End Quote: Yeah and when I was 6mo old I thought wetting my pants was ok too. From the first teaching tape till the last you will find no where that VPW taught the trinity. This is the time period in discussion here. The first tape date is 5/23/65 . To imply that because he learned something in his seminary days and then learned differently years later .somehow proves your case that the letter is somehow wrong is dishonest.. He never taught the trinity in the time we were involved in the Way and you know it. It has as much sense to it as saying because I believed in wetting my pants at 6mo old that now anything I say is not true because I changed my mind. Give me a break Quote: As for you being an apologist...well, White Dove, what you are doing is taking your experience of 'truth' and telling me that what I know isn't 'true'. There's an argument in there somewhere...and you're certainly taking sides.End Quote: Nope what I did was take a letter posted in the Greasespot archives and present it as evidence that what was posted was not true. There is no argument in that for or against anything just a case of facts presented.it has not ONE shred of my experience in it . Which brings us to the real question here maybe . Why does it bother you so that a truthful record is put forth here? As I said untruth serves noone here. This is the reason that many remain lurkers and refuse to post here. Because any truth posted about the Way results in being branded a VP apologist and attacked. I rarely post myself in this forum because It does not take a rocket scientist to see that after all that has been posted very few opinions change either way. I expect that as an exway site it will not be proway. Fine with me. I did not expect it to be a place where truth, facts are denied as real because it does not support someones feelings of hatred. Interesting for all the talk of these great relationships with JESUS I don't see that his teachings have much to do with untruth and hatred. Quote:Trying to explain the difference between talking to Jesus or praying to Jesus by using human relationships is fouled in premise...it's apples and oranges.End quote: Not really I find that the Bible fits pretty well generaly with how life opperates granted there are some exceptions but for the most part it shows human relationships quite well. Believing ,talking/speaking praying all pretty much opperate the same in both worlds. So I will wait for some creditable evidence that what the letter said is untrue. If not I will stand by my postings. I will continue to speak for truth be it about YOU or VPW. that is my only argument. Just the facts Mame just the facts......

Coolwaters Sorry for not speaking more clearly I maybe should have put a comma there or something. If,you failed to speak up for what you believed to be true that is /was your choice. I meant to say IF as in I don't know if you did or not. I was not commenting on you as a person. I thought you lived there at the house on western at one point, sometimes it was hard to know who lived there some of the time. I guess because I saw you there so often maybe. Anyway I brought it up because my experiences were not always as kinder gentler as you said. The incident you spoke of I was not aware of until long after it was over. As I said I was out of that loop but I was not impressed with alot of the things or decisions that were made there nor alot of the people BG included during that time. I will read the rest later since ya did not hire me to think for you I have to go do some real work --> :D-->

Yep I would agree believing is not a formula or a law. That influence I think can be traced back to Norman Vincent Peal. Ken Copeland basicly is teaching the same today. It is true that God was made into a vending machine where we were able to deposit the right coins so to speak and pull the knob to get what we wanted. Like a machine He was required to automaticly give up the bag of chips. I do think despite ourselves He did it anyway when He could because He loved us.

Ok Believing in simple terms is receiving information and processing that information and accepting it as true. most often it happes very quickly in micro seconds sometimes it requires a length of time to sort it out and decide. Example: I may say LOOK OUT!! there is a car headed for you. Most likely in micro seconds you will respond by moving because you believed me. I would hardly say that the few seconds that it took to decide to move would be considered works. Like wise to believe in Biblical or Spiritual situations works the same. You Receive information and discern it to be true and act accordingly if applicable. The micro seconds used to accept that a bit of information from God is true can hardly be considered as works. God gave us brains to use I don't think that that is what the Bible speaks of as works. I was messin with you but the point my failed humor attemt was that if thinking (Believing) was really work as you say then I am working way too hard each day. I may as well get a job just sitting around thinking but I really doubt that anyone would see that as work. What do you think? I thought that since you thought that believing was works maybe you would like to hire me to do some thinking (Believing) for you. you could tell me things and I could believe them. Yes it is grace that God tells us anything. But accepting what he says to be true (Believing) could hardly be considered as works. I realize that there is a micro second of effert to proces his words but I realy think that is a strech to call works....

Coolwaters: Really? A VP Apologist? Because I speak the truth? Apologist- n - A person who agues in defense or justification of another person or cause. (Webster) I don't recall from my post defending or justifying him or his cause. I think if you look back you will see that I only corrected some false assumption about what he said. Thats called truth. I offered proof of what I said a letter. I have seen no such proof offered in oposition . If you have any such evidence bring it on. My point is and will be truth. People come to greasespot looking for information not peoples made up ideas and speculations. You need sound information to make right decisions wrong information serves no one . Truth offers credibility not error. Really isn't that sorta waylike to just make up things about people and what they said isn't that what they do once you leave . I'll not apolgize for holding a better standard. Sorry to hear that you don't like words seperated into proper meanings life must be hard living that way. I am glad I learned the differance between adding and subtracting gosh my checkbook would be a mess!! I wonder how you do it? having all the words mean the same thing. I hope you have not confused the brake with the accelator in your car that could be a problem... Sorry to burst your bubble here but the Bible is made up of words and they like in english have meanings (not all the same). You see right now I am SPEAKING to you but I am not PRAYING to you. (A concordance will give you a quick idea of what prayer is) as I said it could involve speaking but speaking does not need involve prayer. Failure to properly seperate words and their meanings have caused no end of problems in the way. Take believing for example we lumped all sorts of words like positive thoughts, trust, prayer, helping, confidence and so on in with believing not understanding the difference caused no end of havic and confusion. Believing is really pretty simple receiving information and then accepting it as true and then getting the results. If I say to you that I sent you a check, you can believe it and take it from your mailbox or not believe it and loose out. Now if YOU decide that I sent you a check you will have a problem because you have no words to beleive ,except for your own made up ones. Believing is not a law, or making up things to believe one must have something true spoken to believe. not surprising it works the same in the biblical field. Once you have something to believe (not imagined) be it from scripture or by revelation manifestations then you can accept it or not. Quote: With all due respect to White Dove, he enjoyed a 'kinder, gentler' experience in twi during our twi years together... So, my point is that yes, he probably did have more latitude to think for himself...he certainly had more access to 'inner sanctum' information... So, again with all due respect to White Dove, he was free to stick only to veep's 'intended' meanings...and slough off maniacal twig leader and corpse rantings. I wonder where you got this idea. You have no idea what my experience was . Were you aware that the house you lived in at Western street was there in part at my expence? A consentience choice to be blackballed so that others may benefit from it being there. Last time I looked thinking was available to everyone if you choose to. Were you not encouraged to study to understand for yourself ? I never sloughed off anything, rantings were never my standard for truth . If you failed to speak up for what you believed to be true that is /was your choice. Quote: Yet, all that said, if veep 'intended' for things to mean something totally different than what his underlings were shoving down people's throats, I still don't understand how that lets veep off the hook for not stopping the lies...ya know? Again I don't recall saying it did . That was your assumption my guess is your anger refuses to let you see the differance between speaking the "truth or facts and support". But there again is that word thing they mean different things. Read my post again it simply said here are the facts as to what he said no support or nonsupport. By the way did you read the part where I said that he did not exactly promote this idea? Why? I can't say I'm not VP and I won't guess because I don't know his thoughts neither does anyone else and I won't assume I do because my anger makes it ok to do so. Quote: I'm learning to stop nit-picking semantics and start enjoying the relationship. While I agree with you statement that the relationship is the important thing my prior post was not addressing this subject only that there was a difference in the two words and that VP agreed that there was ,at least according to his letter. I don't believe it is a one or the other thing I prefer to know what I am doing. I don't think it confuses anything quite the opposite really,to understand if I am Speaking or Praying . And speaking of that relationship with Jesus didn't he say pray to the Father . I have seen no place in the Bible where he encouraged any prayer to himself or self promotion, I see a lot of scripture's that say the opposite. But I suppose if you do not understand words then you just make up things as you go which is by the way your choice . It is just not Biblical or the Truth. Quote: (I'm really not picking on you, White Dove...you just happened to be handy...and, of the veep apologists here, you're the easiest to go back-and-forth with.) Feel free anytime but I must say after all these years I know that once you have your mind set my words most likely will not sway your position . If you change it will be because you choose to on your own time schedule. As it should be. So I am not looking to argue or convince you or anyone else for that matter only to keep the truth straight.

Rascal Makes a good point even Dr. Wierwille would agree. I would refer you to The Bible Tells Me So Chapter 6 The Counsel of the Lord pg 52 Quote:The question we must continue to ask ourselves day by day is: Does our walk glorify God? This is the one and only test we may apply. This test tells us whether our walk is under the direction of the Lord or whether we are simply acting by our self-centered senses, diverted from God’s Spirit by another spirit. The church in Corinth was specifically warned against “another spirit,” namely, a different spirit which they had not received according to II Corinthians 11:4. This tells us that there is specifically another spirit who is at work to misdirect and to deceive. This spirit from Satan would try to control and deceive us today, even as II Corinthians 11:3 says, “... as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty.” When we are under the influence of “another spirit,” we can be ever so “religious” while totally out of alignment and harmony with God. One spirit is from the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. The other spirit is from the god of this world, who is the devil. So does that mean one screw up and your done for or is it two or seventy times seventy? My opinion and I stress those words. I think God looks upon each act each moment we can live for him or not and we will be judged as such. At the end of the day we must ask Does our walk glorify God? The next is a new day we will do better than the day before...

Yes Krysilis it is easy,there are some more that I left out so as not to make it more confusing the 1st 2nd and 4th were in the session on the bride and the body although not in one place together but you are right in hindsight it would have been nice to have had it taught clearer. The fact that it still remains confusing to so many is proof of that. The charts in that session have proved to be a source of problems for some time.

I hope the job is still open as after I shared your concept of true work with my employers well I'll just say that once they stopped laughing and sent me away to the little rubber padded room,I will be needing that job with you really bad now..... P.S. I'd tell you I love You but I don't wanna make ya work to hard on such a hot day. Heatstroke ya know......

:)-->

Believing=Receiving is Works based. It is based upon me doing something to make things happen. Grace is Faith based. It is based upon God doing what I cannot do. It is based upon me doing something to make things happen.Quote: Oh Geese Cool TELL ME YOU DON'T REAAAAALY BELIEVE THAT. Believing (thinking and accepting something stated as true for what a nanosecond to process it is works? Man I am going to quit my day gig and work for you :D--> No more real work just sit and think about if things are true or not for a nanosecond. Man it wil be great I hope the pay is good. No wait I'm believing that the pay will be good. --> And the bennies too!!! --> I can start today......

I could have been taught incorrectly, but that's what I remember hearing (that you don't pray to Jesus and that it was taught by VP and Craig). Belle You are correct VPW did teach that. He did not say you could not talk to him . Which is what you posted (read your post) and I said was not correct. Talking and Prayer(worship) are not the same prayer can involve talking but talking does not need to involve prayer. It should come as no surprise that VPW teachings "walk a fine line" so to speak after all he often spoke of right cutting and integrity of the word and such. Often peoples anger at the Way or VPW or Craig or some other part of the Way leads people to post or assume that he said things that he did not, sometimes it is just a misunderstanding. Either way it is not the truth. Like him or not I will always represent him honestly that is what I was trying to do here. I am talking to you now,but I am not praying to you or worshiping you. It works the same with Jesus who never instructed us by the way to pray to him. While I would agree that VPW did not exactly promote talking with Jesus he did acknowledge that you could. I was involved with the way from the early 70's on till 88 and I can say that I have never heard him say any different. And I have gone through thousands of hours of teachings and tapes over the years. Anyway was not trying to put you on the spot just to see a fair and balanced truthful discussion here. If someone misquoted you I would do the same for you. Love

Then why oh why oh why did he allow the lie of an Absent Jesus to dominate all twi's teachings? In the context of the class session the absent christ makes perfect sense the EKKLESIA: Bride or Body. I think it is just another case of people taking a part of a chart and trying to fit it in to the Bible. IN the session the promise of the King was dead. He was crucified, He was attempting to show the difference between the Kingdom of God and Kingdom of Heaven. (Which by the way I believe are the same thing) Jesus = dead Jesus the Christ= raised and ascended = absent from earth. Jesus Christ the head of the body = can talk with us and we with him. (Talking and worship are different) Jesus the Christ = returning as King of Kings .... then not absent.

Belle I saw the date on the letter and? I'm guessing you are saying you were in the Way post 83. Just keeping the facts straight here. You were speaking of The Way which includes VPW if you meant Craig then clairify. But reading your responce which I reposted here you were responding to Mike which was a quote from VPW not Craig. It then appears that you said he taught the same thing Which the letter bears as not true. QUOTE: VPW saw that we were drifting away from Christ and the pure Word so he taught things like this: "Ladies and gentlemen, whatever you have to do to know the Lord Jesus Christ, do it. Wherever you have to go to learn about him, do it. The one great driving force of your soul should be to know Jesus Christ. Who is he? The only way you’ll ever know who Jesus Christ is is to come to God’s Word. The Word makes known Jesus Christ. The Word tells you who he is. It is that Word which brings you to a knowledge of salvation." You responded to a quote about VPW with your comments thereby including him,my point was and is speak factually don't include other people in someone elses teaching. I don't like people putting words in my mouth that I did not say I would suppose the same is true for you good or bad I give VPW the same respect that I would want.

You might want to read this letter. I think you may have some wrong information. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/pdf-docs/vpw.pdf