Steve Lortz

Just yesterday I finished reading Love Wins by Rob Bell. It's a thought provoking and highly controversial book. Especially from the viewpoint of being an ex-wayfer. Love, Steve

I am no longer inclined to trust my own speculations as to what it is possible or impossible for Jesus to do or to be. The relationship between God the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ, all things, us and the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 8:6) that Paul presents in his writings is much more complex than the doctrine of the Trinity. It's very possible that the earliest Christians were not able to agree on a formula more complex than "Jesus is Lord." It's certain that nobody else ever has. I can... and have... argued proof-texts for three hours straight. They NEVER settle anything. Theodosius put an end to the bickering in the Roman Empire when he issued his edict of Thessalonika in A.D. 380: "It is Our will that all peoples ruled by the administration of Our Clemency shall practice that religion which the divine Peter the Apostle transmitted to the Romans... this is the religion followed by bishop Damasus of Rome and by Peter, bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic sanctity: that is, according to the apostolic discipline of the evangelical doctrine, we shall believe in the single deity of the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost under the concept of equal majesty and of the Holy Trinity. "We command that persons who follow this rule shall embrace the name of catholic Christians. The rest, however, whom We judge demented and insane, shall carry the infamy of heretical dogmas. Their meeting places shall not receive the name of churches [no imperial money will be spent on their meeting places - Steve], and they shall be smitten first by Divine Vengence, and secondly by the retribution of hostility which We shall assume in accordance with the Divine Judgment [the civil authorities will burn dissenters at the stake - Steve]." (Charles Freeman. (2009). A.D. 381. New York: Overlook Press. page 25.) Whether WE find the doctrine of the Trinity agreeable or not, God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit have been able to work quite well with it, thank you, for about 1,630 years. I didn't initiate this thread to argue fine points (or fine NON-points) about the relationship between God the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ, all things, us and the Holy Spirit. I have strong opinions of my own, but I know that proof texting is useless and needlessly divisive. The purpose of this thread was to point out that, bad as the doctrine of the Trinity may be in some peoples' opinions, there are worse things, and Wierwille's doctrine of the "absent" Christ was one of those. Love, Steve

Thank you, WordWolf! From you, I take that as a high compliment! I'm very interested in hearing what you have to say on the subject. Love, Steve

I'm not a particular fan of Athanasius' doctrine. In my opinion, it doesn't reflect the Scriptural nuances of the relationship between God the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, some of which you've pointed out, Twinky. But the doctrine of the Trinity presents less of a hinderance to walking in the spirit than Wierwille's carnal-mindedness did. That was what prompted me to make my original post. Thanks! Love, Steve

The tension comes from the confession "Jesus is Lord" (Romans 10:9, I Corinthians 12:3, Philippians 2:11, etc., etc., etc.) In Acts 2, Peter starts talking about "Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you..." (verse 22), and eventually gets to "...God hath made that same Jesus... both Lord and Christ" (verse 36). God the Father made the man Jesus of Nazareth Lord when God glorified him. God headed up all things in Christ, toward management of that which fills the opportune moments, or that which fills the moments of decision (Ephesians 1:11). The princes of this present evil age did not know that the death of Jesus of Nazareth, the man they were crucifying, was going to make him eligible to be elevated by God to the position of glorious Lord. THAT WAS THE MYSTERY! If they had known that death by crucifixion would qualify the man Jesus to be resurrected and glorified as Lord, they would never have crucified him! God was able to pull off this device because the word "lord" in the Greek, kurios, has multiple meanings. At the lowest level, it simply meant "master." At the highest level it was used to translate YHWH in the Septuagint. The tension is this: Jesus, a limited man, is currently exercising Lordship, a function of unlimited divinity. The doctrine of the Trinity is, in my opinion, an oversimplification of the relationship set forth in the New Testament, but it is still functional because it maintains the tension. Wierwille's doctrine gave lip service to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, but it collapsed the tension by regarding Jesus as "absent." Bad news. Love, Steve

When in TWI, I had a friend (also in TWI) who made a six-figure income annually. He tithed faithfully and cheerfully, but he wasn't thrilled about it. John's expressions are so full of inappropriate hyperbole. It seems to me to be symptomatic of him believing things must be so, just because he says them. "I've dedicated my life to speaking truth... therefore... everything I say must be true, just because I say it. It doesn't need any more validation than the fact that I say it." Love, Steve

I actually found the video clip, the Bridges of Meghalaya, to be quite fascinating. However, it has nothing to do with "moving the Word" except in John's mind. Instead of building a living bridge to future generations with vines, it seems that John has just been swinging from one vine to the next. Unfortunately his dismounts are more like George of the Jungle's than like Tarzan's. Love, Steve

I sent you a personal message! Thanks! Love, Steve

That's fine by me. I didn't come up with it. The idea of tension was a common part of the Stoic cosmology operative in the first century, and illustrations of the lyre string and the bow string were used in antiquity. I'm presently taking a beginning class on Biblical Greek, and it's a real eye opener! Love, Steve

By "tension" I don't mean the same thing as "anxiety". A guitar string is "tuned" by pulling it in two opposite directions at the same time. The string's ability to produce the proper note depends on having the proper amount of tension on the string. An archery bow's power results from the tension put on the string by drawing it. Some of the most powerful ideas in the Bible result from holding concepts in tension: the tension between viewing God as all-powerful and as all-loving, the tension between seeming determinism and free-will, the tension between the "all ready" and the "not yet." The tension between the human and the divine in Jesus Christ is probably the most powerful tension in the Bible. Just as a guitar string or a bow string would cease to perform its function if the tension were collapsed by loosing one of its ends, the ideas in the Bible cease to do what they're supposed to do if their tension is collapsed. The doctrine of the Trinity may not communicate every little nuance of the relationship between God, Jesus and "holy spirit" that we find in Paul's writings, but it DOES communicate the important functional truth that we relate with God the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ by means of Holy Spirit. Love, Steve

According to James D. G. Dunn, the original, fundamental confession of faith in the first century was "Jesus is Lord." This confession involves a tension between Jesus' limited human component and his unlimited divine component. The doctrine of the Trinity, as hammered out in later church councils, was a simplification of the Biblical relationship, stated in the language of the later centuries, but it was a functional simplification because it continued to maintain the tension between the human and the divine. Wierwille's doctrine collapsed the tension, because, while he gave lip service to Jesus' divine function, Wierwille practiced and taught an "absent Christ." Wierwille's preaching lined up with the Bible, but I don't think Paul would have considered his practice and teaching to have been "Christian." Love, Steve

One of the problems I've noticed with John, and all the other offshoot leaders I've had a chance to observe, is that they mistakenly believe their own hyperbole. They unconsciously believe in their hearts, "since I am dedicated to speaking truth, then everything I say must be true." They buy their own hype. John wrote, "...one of the most significant things in the entire spectrum of Church history..." I have before me a copy of Diarmaid MacCulloch's Christianity, The First Three Thousand Years. It's about 1,200 pages long, and my assignment for this week (it's the textbook we're using in class) is to summarize pages 289 through 395. John's statement doesn't really tell us anything about PFAL. It tells us EVERYTHING about John's ignorance of "the entire spectrum of Church history." I find it sadly appalling that John's recent motion has been BACK toward W.O.W. and Power For Abundant Living instead of FORWARD from C.E.S. and Introduction To God's Heart. It tells me he's running out of steam, as well as followers. He has nothing that appeals to new people, only to ex-wafers nostalgic for the good ol' days. Love, Steve

If you don't mind, I'd like to know where this quote came from. Was it the same email Old Skool got the video clip from? How recently has he been writing things like this? Thanks! Love, Steve

...what we are to be doing with the Word: leaving a legacy for others... "Everyone then who hears these words of mine [Jesus] and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock. The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell - and great was its fall!" (Matthew 7:24-27 NRSV) ALL the effort we spent on building TWI, ALL the effort we spent on building CES, ALL the effort we spent building STFI has been washed away, because those organizations were built on the plagiarized words of (not a doctor) Wierwille, rather than on the words of the Lord ("they aren't addressed to the Church, you know"). The only legacy left by Wierwille and those who remain committed to his error consists of death, divorce, ruin and confusion. Love, Steve

... a bridge of Truth on which they can negotiate the raging torrents of life..." How's that working out for C.E.S... errr.... S.T.F.I... errr... L.T.F., John? Love, Steve

Thanks, Old Skool. It's hard to drum up anything other than pity for an aging man who knows his glory days are far behind him. But he brought it all on himself. I was a WOW in '82-'83. I think it was where the Lord wanted me to be, not for Wierwille's purposes, which were to sell PFAL and recruit followers to the Trustees' hidden agenda, but for the Lord's purposes, which I don't think I'll completely understand until I know even as I am known. I HAVE lost sight of that vision of "W.O.W.", largely due to the ministrations of John Lynn himself. I am currently a student in a seminary working on a bona fide masters degree in theological studies, and I'm having every bit as much fun "moving" the genuine Word of God as I ever had promoting Wierwille's multi-level marketed version of John Darby's dispensationalism. John could still be having a blast walking with the Lord, if he would turn his back on the errors he soaked up at Wierwille's feet, but that would mean that John would have to shift paradigms. Love, Steve

In TWI, I think, it was something pretty close to "excremental". Love, Steve

Which "John" did this come from? Inquiring minds want to know! Love, Steve

Those places look a lot more sinister in the dreams I still have from time to time (out since 1987). Love, Steve

In her book "Cults in Our Midst," Margaret Singer (NOT to be confused with Margaret Sanger) lists six conditions that create the atmosphere needed to put thought-reform processes into place. The first is this: "Keep the person unaware of what is going on and how she or he is being changed a step at a time." "The process of keeping people unaware is key to the cult's double agenda: the leader slowly takes you through a series of events that on the surface look like one agenda, while on another level, the real agenda is to get you, the recruit or member, to obey and give up your autonomy, your past affiliations, and your belief system. The existence of the double agenda makes this process one of noninformed consent." Love, Steve

In many cases, The Way International projected its own closed-mindedness on everybody else. I imagine there are a number of Catholics, even Jesuits, who would carefully read JCING. Love, Steve

I disassociated from TWI in 1987, but I hung out with CES for about nine more years. I haven't been closely associated with any particular religious group since then, though I have involved myself in some occassional interdenominational enterprises. I was originally supposed to get my bachelor's degree in 1971. I finally finished it last May, so I spent a literal forty years wandering in the wilderness. A few weeks ago, I began working on a master's degree in theological studies, with a focus on the Greek language, with a view towards qualifying to teach Greek at the high school level. What a joy the classes are, compared with the droning drivel of in residence corps training. The professors are bona fide doctors in their fields, but they aren't puffed up. They conduct their classes more through discourse than through lecture, and they WELCOME questions. I began appreciating how the Lord can work in Catholicism just as well as in any other flavor of Christianity when I was studying the works of JRR Tolkien (not just the Hobbit and the Ring Trilogy) and saw how his Roman Catholicism was key to his unique understanding of parts of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. It was Tolkien, the Roman Catholic, who witnessed to C.S. Lewis! I have several friends and relatives who have converted to Roman Catholicism lately, and if that's where God has chosen to set them in the Body of Christ, then more power to them! The love of God is a mighty, mighty river flowing through the world. It isn't just a little trickle in an Ohio cornfield. Love, Steve

I found a similar thing happened among several offshoots, especially CES. At first they were very willing to change positions on doctrine they had inherited from TWI, but once they had published something of their own, then the version of what they had written was off limits from further consideration or discussion. That was one of my biggest disappointments with the offshoots I've experienced. Love, Steve

Thanks, everybody! How ironic! Wierwille thought Jesus Christ was "absent", and we see how far he got "spiritually" thinking THAT! Love, Steve

Was the quote from Foundational PFAL? Love, Steve