lindyhopper

Great couple of posts Oak... you are very funny, too bad you are so stupid. Good luck with that ;)-->

I think Albert's God had a point.

Another possiblility.... 4. He saw what VP had going on and saw the potential and approached his brother with a business plan.

Doesn't this belong in the doctrinal section?

Dot, I think most of us are not just here because we are ex way....but ex-cult members. The similarities between theJW and TWI are intriguing. I also think that it is helpful for some of us to realise us ex-way folks are not alone in our experiences. Even if we know this intilectually, it is nice to converse with one of these "outsiders". Secondly, contrary to popular belief, many of us aetheist/agnostic types (especially agnostic) are still looking for answers. That being so, we sometimes ask uncomfortable questions or make uncomfortable and maybe annoying statements, in the hope of getting a better answer. But, unfortunately, it is usually as Raf said, we've heard it all before. But there is always hope, because after all, the idea of a loving God or loving heavenly father is rather appealing...as is eternal life etc. Things just don't sit right for some of us....so we continue to ask the tough questions. The way I see it, Refiner came across our site, met a bunch of ex-cult members that actually know a lot of Bible, and stated the reason for his belief or lack of belief and asked for a lagitemate answer. Unfortunately, questioning the answers is not something some people are used to. Or something. I don't think we should chase off every non exwayfer that comes across the G spot.SOme of us that go against the grain welcome this sort of discussion.

Now it can sit there where most people will ignore it. Refiner knows how to post in the doctrinal area, he has done so numerous times. Did he ask to move it or just Zix?

lame

Sorry it had to come to that. But sometimes that is the only option. When I left I was at that point. I left even though I thought there was a chance that I may never speak to my parents and brothers again. Thankfully that has not been the case. It has taken some time and still needs work but my family is still together, even though they are all still in. If you are up to it... how did you leave exactly?

I'm against Spiderman because he beats up those innocent and creative people in those fabUloius costums! How cruel. Oh no, its too late he has gotten to me already!

One of the most reasonable posts I've read Uncle Hairy. Def, Actually, I did read your post. Believe it or not I have even read the Bible once or twice. But read my post... Once again you equate disciplining a child with killing a child. Now I am not personally offended nor am I crying. I have not had to live thru nearly as much as those who God is ....ed at. I live a wonderful life inspite of being an infidel. However, as I said, I find it a little strange and a little like a battered spouce that you didn't even mention God ever doing anything bad, rather you focus on how he really is a good father, sorry he killed these people, but he gave them a chance.... I understand that if there is a God he can damn well do what he pleases, but the analogy of Him being a father is a human analogy. Think of a human father, that is what you are supposed to do. Now should a human father kill his kid for disobeying a few times, hell even if he never obeys? Even if this is a OT father most would think he is a nutcase. So my point is...don't say father or at least not "loving father", that is misleading. Most fathers are loving,but we don't usually refer to the murdering ones as "loving". Those one we usually call murderers or psychos or *******s. Believing in a god takes faith, believing that the god of the OT is a loving father doesn't take faith, it takes ignoring the killing and the plagues and such and/or unreasonably justifying those actions. Sorry, I don't mean to pick on you, Def. I just told my kid not to touch my glass of water twice. You know what I'm gonna do? Move the glass.

Great post mandii

The profound Exy beat me to it. Don't run off too quickly Refried. and don't give Goey too much of a hard time, he is going into surgrey. He doesn't need any extra stress. But I totally understand where you are coming from. ....how easily we attribute God with this Father/parent title. "Oh parents have to discipline they're children." We've been over this so many times before. The only parental figure the god of the OT resembles is an abusive one. People that try and justify it, as Def just did, sound like an abused spouse trying to explain to their worried friends that he really is a good man.....nevermind him allowing his kids to die and/or be tortured just because they didn't do what he said...really he loves us so much. I always see disciplining our children being equated with God doing something like blinding someone or killing them. Another point is the blood/race issue. We talk of God disciplining or punishing his kids, but most of the time it wasn't his kids...it was those other bi-peds the EVil ones. They were not the chosen people because they and their ancestors did not do as da God said. So If you do not obey God then you are not his kid. That sounds just like a great human parent, infact i have already disowned my 13 month old because he just won't do as I say. I feel bad but it was his choices, he tied my hands. I'm just trying my best to be an imitator of my loving heavenly father.... --> Most analogies that folks use for God only work when we want it to and choose to ignore the times that it doesn't work. And Def, I don't think judgement is a bad word. It is how we get thru life. We make good ones and bad ones. I make judgements of people that screw up, but then apologise and rectify the situation, or of those that persivere thru unbelievable circumstances, and of say someone who says DO NOT KILL in one breath but then say go murder every man, woman and child in the next town over. I make the call for me and you for you. Apparently many think that my last person was not any worse than the two previous ones. I find that rather interesting....and a little scary.

I have some Anusol. Sounds like you might need it. that must have hurt. :o-->

Hey someone is finally looking for me in here! Man I feel special. LOL, Ex you are too funny. Actually, I have been very busy with the baby. he is beginning to walk and is more than a handful. He is actually a great well behaved kid, just requires a lot of attention as most kids do at this age. That and I have been trying to get a business going as well as other things. All this has made me rather sleepy which mean I don't stay up until crazy late hours like right now. Plus, sometimes things here get stale and need time for refreshing. But mostly it has been lack of time. Thanks for thinking of me! Hugs all around.

thanks for sharing, Belle. so your still in, yes? I hope that you and your family can find a way out. this is a great place to release and cope. I wish there was an easy answer, like just leave, but I know it is not that simple when you have a spouse that is also in. my best to you and your family. Can I get you a iced-half-caf-mochachino-frappa-latte-skip-whip. Or maybe just a cuppa Joe.

This reminds me of another great verse....it went something like ..... "Thou shalt not kill, but if thine tormentors shall hurl insults at you that really .... thee off, then thou shalt proclaim, "Sticks and stones shall break my bones asunder but how doth a bear on thine a$$ feel?" I may have paraphrased a bit.

THAT skill my friend, Refried, is only obtained after mastering PFAL!

Nope, but I want to. Funny and insightful are two of the words I thought of while looking into it.

Sorry, Refiner, it always comes to this. I wish I had more time to contribute to this topic. It is always sooo much fun. This thread has brought up a few of my favorite scriptures……I just can’t remember the chapters and verses. “Yee are of God my little pawns in the game of life, do as I say and destroy the enemy my little ones, I love Me” “You are my beloved cows. Come to my troth of abundance and drink from my swill. Pull up a chair so we can shoot the bull.” “You are my red-headed step-children, make my only begotten son Lord, and don’t slip up and nobody gets hurt.” “Go out back little children and kill the copperheads, I’m too busy. Besides I enjoy watching you risk your necks while attempting to obey My every Word. Oh and don’t step on the crab grass or I will be forced to let you die….Oh, and hop on one foot while you do this.” Oh my memory is so fuzzy! I do enjoy this topic. What where we talking about again? Oh right, those stupid ancient people. Sorry for the derailment.

Agreed Oak I think it is a mistake that is made too often...that ancient people were idiots. Take a look at some ancient history books. They understood things that some of us don't understand today. There were plenty of cultures that were contemporaries of the ancient Isrialites that had their own gods were some were good and some were bad. It is not that hard of a concept to grasp. JohnUR I would push for a better explaination.

Lets not forget those that were only slightly M&Aed. They called it "probation". It was usually used on corpes types. It had all the same attributes of being M&Aed but you could still get the tapes and magazines and were expected to get your **** together by a certain time, like say 6 months. My parents had this happen twice and they are still in. They just kept coming back for more....probably partialy because my brother and I were still in. I was not to contact them or anything. The second time I was teporaily living with them after my old roommate was M&Aed. The LC called up and said LCM said any corps allumni (that was corps that was dropped from active statis) that was not at least running a fellowship or an assistant was to be dropped from any corps status and put on probation. Just because he was ....ed and having a bad day. The LC told me that from my mother's immidiate questions about keeping in touch with us kids showed him she was not keeping God first and therefore we were not to speak with them. Or maybe that was the first time, I don't know. But my point is.... they are still in. they were basically M&A untill they conformed. This had to have a terrible effect on their lives. I know it did mine. All they ever wanted to do is lead people and be corps. They still do. I think those 2 M&A experiences only strengthened the hold tWI has on their lives. I know at the time it scared the **** out of me...fear of being M&Aed. We were told not to fear being kicked out but to just focus on love and "doing the Word". Or do as we say and conform . It is not always a happy ending for those M&Aed.

then there is the Catholic point of view. real catholics. they see most of the OT as man's perspective...not the revealed Word of da God. they even call some of it myth...as in it had a long oral history before it was ever written down. They see the devil not as a person or spiritual persona but just the bad things that happen in the world. But then what the hell am I doing trying to make sence of this for you? I'm with you... it makes absolutely no sense at all.

TWI called it the "idiom of permission" Ex and Refiner. A lot of things don't make sence about it, IMO, and I've asked many Jewish folks that are seriouly into their beliefs and they said they've never heard of it. To make a long story short, Refiner, in the OT God said not to worship any other god before him. Supposedly they weren't to write or speak any other god's name...like the Debil. So all the bad things that happened were attributed to God, in that he allowed it to happen because of the evil things that people were doing....or he gave his "permission" if you will. They were doing evil so there was nothing he could do but allow the consiquences of their actions happen to them. Riiiiiight, sure that's what happened. There is a thread on the idiom of permission in the Docrinal forum. I thought I asked some good questions there that no one ever answered. The invisible Dan is another person to talk to with some intersting knowledge on the early 2nd or 3rd centery Christians. I think they resolved this by saying the OT god and the NT god were different gods. I may be wrong. You out there Danny?

David, as the resident Lindy-hopper I must say a dance can be done about any subject. Even say ..."spit or swallow" I mean "study or swallow". he-he now dance DANCE! those aren't Jazz hands! these are JAZZ HANDS! lol I kill me.

hey Oak I guess we posted at the same time. yeah what he said.