lindyhopper

That's the best plug for peeps I've ever heard. Mmmmmm, peeps. Any good candy should be bad, very bad. Spawn of Satan? They must be some of the best sh!t out there.

WOW I didn't realise yall were brothers. That is nice to see. Maybe someday there will be a lindyjumper here. That would be nice.

I was thinking about this today after a discussion with my innie family. I may just ask them next time, but to help formulate things I'll ask it here as well. What was the distinction on the sin of debt? First in terms of whether aquiring the debt was a sinful act, or was it sin the whole time you owed them...the whole payment process. There was a distinction in whether or not you were "aggessively" trying to pay it back. There was a time when if you were at least being aggessive about it then you could still be an Adv. Cl. Grad. Second, was it only if you owed interest? If you rent, then you are doomed to owe that rent for the rest of your life, unless of course you are aggessively saving to buy your house with cash. How many are doing that? I know in our area, leasing a car was considered debt and was discouraged. No interst, but still it was not approved of. People wouldn't loan you a ten spot or a book because they didn't want you to owe them. No "ursery" but still not doing it. Going back to rent, they still owe it, whether it is a month or a year lease. Third, it seems that having debt was a serious spiritual offense. You were not allowed to be a FC or corps or go to ACG meetings. Yet, they were willing to let the MOG's adultery and other's to go by without punishment as long as they asked forgiveness. Well at least until it went public. Even they were only going to demote LCM to Head of Research. Obviously, having debt is more of an offence than adultery. Was it just because with adultery you could get forgiveness and move on with no lasting affects, like paying off a morgage for thirty years. Do they actually think that the affects of adutery don't last at least that long? What about the affects of murder? Could a murderer get forgiveness and become an advanced class grad? What about Homosexuality? There were supposed "healed" gay folks that were corps. Debt was different. So it would seem that just having the debt was a sin, even if you were aggressively paying it off, not just getting into that situation. Seems like where your heart is at now, at the time of you paying off your car, means very little. Can anyone clearify any of these questions? Regardless of whether it makes sense or not.

I too have some family that is planning on going in the corps in a few years. It is saddening. Our family doesn't really talk about TWI stuff outside of the debt issue. I don't know if "hey, don't go in the corps", is the way to start. The way I would go about it (and have begun this process) is to start with their goals. My family wants a house someday would like to live in a perticular part of the country etc. These things, while not impossible, are not very easy when in the corps. Same with wanting to go to school. The other way is to go about poking holes in their doctrine, which as I said we have only gone into the debt issue. I've been considering going into many serious issues, but I don't know yet. Then again. Think of how many corps there used to be and how many there are now. They get closer to the fire, so it is more likely that they will get burned. Now that doesn't sound like something to you would wish for family, but sometimes it is the only way a blind person will realise they are dealing with fire.

63% Dixie All I can say is, once a Texan always a Texan. You can take the boy outta Texas but ya can't take the Texan outta the boy.

Raf's not the Devil?

Guys? You know I would say that 85% of the women I have met in my adult life have experienced some sort abuse at the hands, voices, actions of a man. And that is just from the women that have confided in me. Recently I learned of another person in my family that ended up marrying a seemingly quiet and normal guy who turned out to be a wee bit crazy. Stalking, threatening with weapons, just plain being a freak. What is up with us guys? I know a girl who told me in her soroity they had a "speak out", where girls could get up and share with other girls thier abuse stories. She said 90% of them got up with a story and you know some of the others just couldn't say anything. I know that because my friend was one of the silent ones. That is sickening. It makes you want to press charges against all these people rapping and singing and positively portraying women as "b!tches" and "Hoes" and infidelity and all that. What is wrong with men? There is something very wrong.

a gaggle of gullibles a trunck of tragedies a twig of TWIts a TWIt of trites a clown car of calamities a root of all evil? ;)--> a region of rump riders a roster of rejects a crop of con men...put your hand to the plow and run thier a$$es over. and don't look back.

I do not think that it was so general as "man's depravity" that they were afraid of. Some of the forefathers were more optimistic about humanity in that they man was gerneally good, while others were pessimistic thinking that man is generally bad. What I believe they were more concerned about was how absolute power corrupts absolutely. That is why we have the freedoms we have today. To protect us from those types of people...kings, dictators, you could say those thinking that they are gods. I think it is interesting how so many times us agnostics and atheists are often condemned as the morbid pessimists. Yet here we see how so many think that man on our own is depraved and worthless without God. Well, I beg to differ. As I look at the back and forth here, there seems to be two sides. One side thinks that internal moral moderation is best, while the other side thinks that is impossible and an external moral law is necessary. I think they are both needed, but only because the first is not used by many and so the second must be there as a fail-safe. There will always be a small percentage of people that are sociopaths. 4% is what I heard recently. Then there are the psychopaths and numerous other mental defects that take up another small percent. Then there are those that just fail to realise their abilities. That makes up a larger number. Of course this is all just anecdotal. I heard recently testimony of a number of artists and other popular figures that used drugs to create and perform at the level they did. At the time they feel that it is the drug that is giving those levels of creative juices. Once the stop using drugs and start thier lives over they realise it is actually thier ability. It may be the same with many believers IMO. Just a thought. We humans are capable of many a great thing, with or without a god. IMHO

Things changed for me rather quickly. By things I mean my belief system and by belief system I am talking about what I consider to be the superficial beliefs. God and such. My core values did not change. My basic personality didn't change. As I said in another thread, I am still "ME". I did realise some new things about me, once I started allowing myself to think outside the TWI box. I still suprise myself at times. I can see how so many people here think that some of us just snapped and changed our beliefs because of twi abuse. All I have to do is pull out a journal that I had just before and after I left the ministry. I see that I had been mulling a lot of things over for some time. Some things are hard to distinguish whether they are twi leftovers or just the way I am. Things like motivation. I realise that in some respects I never grew up. Someone was always there to tell me what to do. "Wise council". That has possibly been the toughest issue,learning to jump. That has been a little tough as a new husband and father. There are other people that are affected by any percieved risk and there are no overlords to tell my what to do. That is freeing and a little scary. So that may have slowed the proccess a little. But I have a wonderful and supportive wife and amazing little one. My wife tells me how she is amazed by how well I have taken things. That is incouraging. I think it is important to realise that you are still YOU, everything else is the little stuff. That will change, don't loose any sleep over it. This from someone posting at 1:30 in the morning. :)-->

I agree with Einstien, but he didn't need to throw in social ties. That is covered by sympathy and education. Those two also inspire empathy. I don't mean education to as in getting your BS in BS, but as in learning of the world around you and those in it. Evan could not have approached his African friends without that type of education. Education to learn of other people's cultures and how not to insult them. Not out of fear of being murdered for a rediculous reason, but because you know how it feels to be insulted and don't want to cause others the same pain and discomfort and maybe rage. You know sympathy. Sympathy would in turn keep you from continuing to insult them in the name of being free. Education would inform you of the penalty of death and sympathy would inform your sense of responsibility. Eventually, the mutual respect may educate them and inspire sympathy invoking change. For example changing an idiotic classification of capital crimes. I don't doubt these people's truthworthiness. I don't do that of anyone without cause. What I do is educate myself of each situation to the best of my ability. I will determine trust by way of that education. Speaking too quickly can cause that proccess to fail. I know I don't always get it right. I know nun of us do. I don't feel fear is needed until you are in the situation where your head is the one about to be on a stick. That is not to say that fear does not work. Many times fear is the thing that causes us to realise we need to learn. It can cause one to begin the education proccess, questioning. "What is going on here?" "Why are these people chasing me with knives?" "How can I change my situation?" "How might I do this differently next time if I survive?" A shot gun in tow next time with the intent on killing those bastards might work for you, but that is not opperating out of sympathy, that is education inspiring fear and ending with fear, stopping the proccess. On the other hand, a gun might not be a bad idea especially if a show of force inspires respect in that culture. There is only one way to learn that. Sympathy on the other hand, would lead to treating others with respect and compassion. It is exactly what I was talking about before. Sympathy is selfish and that is OK. Say it with me. Fear is selfish as well, but it can be a show stopper. It can be what I call short-sighted selfishness. It stops the proccess. Fear of God has been known throughout history to do this. One could argue they weren't properly educated about God. Then again you don't need a god to come to many of the same conclusions those with a god come to. Why? Because it was all born out of selfishness and God became an image of the inforcer. Inforcement IS needed because we don't always operate out of education and sympathy. Inforcement is a sympathetic act. Although, many times punishment excedes an educated response. Sometimes is falls short. I'll stop there for now.

The worst thing as a kid was being just above penis hieght. lol You REALLY didn't want to bump into anyone.

I won't go that far. I was a SAHD. I am again two times a week. It is a tough thing regardless of whether one is in TWI or not. I know it was tough for me. It is hard for SAHDs because not only do you change identities because your time is taken up by your kid(s) instead of a job, but it is still a very non-traditional role for men. Plus, unlike many moms I see at play and story hours, I don't have a network of SAHD friends. I think once you have kids your role as a parent totally changes everything. Much more so than just going from boy/girl friend to husband/ wife. Both my wife and I realise this and feel its affects. Our first was unplanned and was a honeymoon baby so many of the things we thought we might be doing are not happening. Many other different exciting things are happening, but you still miss the stuff you enjoyed doing pre-kids. It is natural. Now, also being an ex-wafer that spent more or less their whole life in der Vay, I know that once you wake up and realise this is not the life you want to lead, that there is a proccess and a time taking realization of who you are. I think most of the time you realise that you are still YOU! Just now you are free of BS leagalism. Free to choose who you want to be and where you want to go with your life. I think we have all gone thru this to an extent here. It may be abuse to a varying degree with each person and relationship, but what do you expect from a cult.

I think the real question here is "what don't you do with one boob?" :P-->

I second what most have said. I don't know what degree of a turn I made or how you might measure that. With a compass? A spiritual protactor? Hmmm. What ever turn I made I made it primarily because I opened my eyes. You know, used the old noggin, not just thinking I was using. So will i go back to blind believing? Blind faith if you will. Go back to living by catch phases. Checking with my overseer to go out of state. Etc etc. I sure as hell hope not. I think that the ministry liked to file everything into a neat catagory. On 3x5s of course. The focus most of the time was on classification, quatification, degrees, percents, nametags, and labels. To know. To control. To know was to control and to control was to know. Life is not like that. The day I left twi I did not become a differnt person. At least not in respect to the deep personal things. I still was a caring person. Still loved my family. I wasn't going to go out and kill anyone. Yet. ;)--> Here I am years later and I am still a good person and feloney-free! A lot of things have changed. Maybe Christians don't want to share the same table with me at the Country Buffet, but I am still the same person on the key issues. I just have my eyes open now and I don't settle for the easy out. Hopefully a few years from now the skater in me will have done many a 720.

You know at first I thougnght it was a little strange as a youngin'. Then I got used to it. That is untill puperty kicked in. :o--> A little auckward. In Rome City after gym, all of us hicks would jump into the open shower in our birthday suits. Then we moved to the real world. I was the only one naked heading to the showers on the first day of class. Well, someone thought it would be funny to grab all my clothes and make fun of my nakedness. What can I say, I was a late bloomer. Seems I was the only one who didn't think it was hilarious. Even the geeks had a good laugh. Well, I can look back on it now and chuckle, but it took me a while to get over that one. Oh well. :)-->

Hmmmmm "Undaunted Courage" hey? I do believe I have heard that title in recent convos with my innie family . Could a heavy Revie have made one of those unofficial secular plugs? Anyway Those were some good allussions for your relativity claim, MVD. Do tell of the truths unearthed and/or the explosive expansion and increase that has occured in the last eon since they ousted the randy Rev. Perv. I know change that transcends space and time will be interesting to many here. Well, at least to me. Do tell on.

well, I am not welcoming you then. ;)-->

A benign choise of words "over shadow" is. I would have said "replaced".

Sorry if I misled you. I am not currently in a way fellowship, thank Dog. What I was refering to was the 20+ years that I was in it. I left of my of my own free will in 2001, I think. I don't know how many eons that translates into for you, but for me that was only four years ago. How quickly we forget. "Have you not read..." Take a look around, there are a lot of unsavory things that have been going on since twi's inception. VPW, LSM, RRR different letters same game. Shame on you. I would think that you should have his "WAY Class" half way memorised by now. What about his book, throw that one out to? No matter. I may have been over reaching with the whole mandatory web reading, but regardless, the same structure of isolation, deceit, and abuse are still there alive and well. Hope you never have to feel it's sting. I also hope you get your head out of the sand. I have a little room to talk here. I still have close family in. You could say I am "contected". And while they may not notice what is going on, my blinders have been off for some time now. "You can do it!" too, even with one hand tied behind your back.

BTW, the sexual revolution and many sexual abuses are many times a result of religious sexual supression and oppression. and I liked TheEvan's answer always gotta love a good agnostic Christian. ;)-->

Whoa! I know you're Def and I may sometimes be blind but lets not be dumb. You just said: then before closeing said Lets see, if anyone is responsable for STDs I think that would have to be the creator of all things who also commanded be fruitful and multiply. Euthanasia...oh yeah that is God's job. Sex abuse...I seem to remember a virgin Mary, looked a little like abuse of power. And pornography, I was just watching the Bible on TV, and that part about Lot and his daughters.....why I never! I had to fast forward thru the part where David is watching Bathsheba getting bathed by another girl! I can't lie, I peeked in on a little of all the "knowing" that was going on. :D--> ;)--> OK I'm having a little fun, but don't miss the point. Lets not say one thing and then turn around and do the exact same thing. STDs were around long before that evil sexual revolution. There are many Christians that are both for euthaasia and are pro-choice. Sex abuse has been around as long as the cell block for abusive priests and ministers is long. And pornography has been keeping many a believer straight and narrow ever since the advent of clothes. Lets not make silly baseless claims. Lets talk about how it is in your world, that from your personal experience tells you that non-believers are nothing more than moralless animals. Or take up my original challenge of coming up with ideas of why it could possibly be a good idea to live a good life without a god looking over your shoulder.

Actually, it proves nothing of the sort. What is tells us is not what we need, but what we don't need and that is a dictator...absolute rule, and we especially don't need some psudo-science to prop it up. That goes for your god too. What has brought us out of barbarianism is not God either. He was there all along, commanding it at times. What has brought from those cold bararisms to this state of limited enlightenment is education. Education regarding the world around us, the beings that live on it and good old trial and error. The more you learn about other people, the more a non-sociopath realises how similar we are and how human we all are and how powerful we are and how incredibly weak we are. You then funnel that knoledge thru a good filter of sympathy and empathy you come out the other end with a little more respect and compassion than you started with. IMO, an absolute, always right, resently converted to "all benevolence all the time (except when he says so)", God has not helped that process much.

MDV, I believe the ones he was refering to were ones like: -revelation given once may change -it may be neccessary to put unbelievers out of da room. -I'm a SOGWAP hear me roar! well the last one I made up, but the other two were two of the sixteen keys to walking by the spirit ala twits.

Nope not required, Vaden. At least not by written edict, but stressed. Heavily stressed. After all a suggestion by a general is as good as an order. Ever heard that one? That is how twi has operated for as long as I've known it. Maybe your a rebel and for some crazy reason no one has caught you yet. Or maybe you always play by the rules. who knows who cares. The fact of the matter. LCM says ya'll should read "Two Babylons" and suddenly it's a top seller. He says he listens to Metallica and suddenly every waybot wanabee has a copy of "Master of Muppets" and is humming "Until it Sleeps" on their way to work. You see what we're getting at here, guy?