lindyhopper

I'm sure he was Danny, haven't you seen his pictures....the perfect blue eyes that gaze right into yours, light skined, without blemish, long wavey well-conditioned hair (no split ends), plucked eye-brows, I mean he's a virtual metrosexual. The ladies love that sort of thing.

I don't know CM, Eden isn't sounding all that great to me. Sure there are some very appealing things about it like you have to dress and keep it, but you don't work so hard as to break a sweat to put food on the table. You get to have as mush sex as you want and make babies all day cause they are just gonna pop right out with easy, but you trade knowledge for ignorance and you trade choosing of your own free will to chosing from Gods choices. I know that may sound just right to some but the God of Gen 1-3 isn't sounding like the the God of "where God is, there is liberty", IMO. It sounds more like "where God is, you are kept in the dark and fed propaganda."

hate to be a geek, but do you hve a sourse for that, Todd? I am seeing that subtle is `aruwm {aw-room'}and naked is `eyrom {ay-rome'} or `erom {ay-rome'}. They sound similar but not the same. Maybe you have a different sourse or a something different in mind all together. That has been know to happen. :)--> Actually what I am seeing regarding "subtle" is interesting as well. Out of eleven times it is only translated subtleonce, right there in regards to the serpent. The majority of the time (8 times) it is used as prudent.

Well, one of the questions would be: So God and "us" have "experiencially known" evil? Another one would be... Why doesn't God tell Adam and Eve the truth? That they won't surely die, and that all they need to do is go eat of the tree of life. He says to his angels or whoever he is talking to "Behold", LOOK, "They have become like one of us and now all they need to do is eat of the tree of life (Zoe)(in the midst of the garden) and they will live forever. Therefore..." (or for that reason) he kicks them out of the garden. He then protects the garden so that they can not get back in, to protect the way of the tree of life. What is "the way of the tree of life"? It seems to be the way of everlasting life. A way that was available if it were not for God's enforcement. It was available from the begining of Eden, apparently before or after eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It almost seems as if God wanted them to live forever but didn't want them to know the difference between good and evil, didn't want them to have the ability to makes those choices. They were naked before and naked after eating the fruit, the only difference was that after eating it they realised they were naked. It just seems stranger and stranger to me and I don't think I am really reading anything into it.

Agreed. Perhaps the differences in what we are saying is a matter of perspective.

The Mosh took that picture from one of the many places he has lived in the past two years.

Krys, "I found thy words and I did eat them,...." I think that's in Isaiah somewhere. Perhaps the eating of the fruit was less of an experiencial act and more of an internal consumption. Kind of like learning.

Pawn, While I think what you have explained is a more interesting and healthy outlook on the Garden of Eden story than the way the literalist Christians have spun it, I disagree on the two Yods. Not that it is necessarily your view, the view you explained. I don't see there being 2 impulses, one being good, the other evil, selfish, or bad. I see both impulses as selfish but one being an impulse to ignore the larger picture. In doing so they act "without regard for the moral consequences of fulfilling those desires." No that is not a good thing, in that many times it harms others, and therefore harms you in maybe a not so apparent way or maybe an immediate and glaringly apparent way. Although, on the flip side, whether we realise it or not, whether we admit it or not, to consider the consiquences and act accordingly or to not act in the commonly thought of as a selfish way, is still in a way selfish. Why? Because it always comes back to you. Whether we are talking about not fighting saving you and others from a black eye or whether we are talking about an act that perpetuates or helps to divert your family, community, society, planet in a direction that will ultamately negatively affect your life. I understand and agree with Todd's point about choices. Trying to figure out the "right" or perfect choice when we don't have all the choices may be futile. Many issues are very complex and a perfect answer is not there. But I think most of the time if we just exercise a little common sense with a healthy dose of empathy, sympathy, and compassion many of the everyday "evils" of the world would not exist. I also think that the mistakes and annoyances of life that would undoubtedly still be around would not escalate beyond "the little things". For the most part anyway.

I am suprised no one has chewed more on what I brought up abour Gen. 3:22. It was a shocking realization to the lingering bits of my former Christian self. God does not tell the whole truth in Gen. 2. The serpent (Satan?) reveals the truth, you won't surely die, just doesn't tell them how to get around it. God confirms what the serpent said was true and to himself or ?others? reveals how they would still live forever, ie eat of the tree of life. Then upon this realization he forces them out of the garden seemingly so they can't get to the tree of life, protecting it with Ceribums and spinning flaming swords. I know it is figuretive (just a story IMO) but to my former self this is craziness. Krisilis, your welcome about the ginosko, but I think maybe we were taught to jump to "know by experience" reflexively. That isn't the only definition for it and it doesn't seem to fit here, at least not if God is all good. Which I'll assume just to not take me off onto yet another tangent. The hebrew word is yad one of the many definitions of it is "know by experience", but then they use the same word as in "know sexually", and every other form of know. But could God know good and evil by experience? If not then what does that mean for Adam and Eve. Did they really know by experience or did they just know as in they learned to know? As in the serpent taught them, showed them, or whatever how to learn and not just to know what they knew or just do. Which then makes you wonder: how wonderful was this "paradise" of "do what your told without knowing all the options". Perhaps that is what Roy was saying about not having free will untill they sinned. It seems to make sense that, as SirG said, that the serpent was on the payroll. It seems almost like a political move. God doesn't tell you all the options so that it can be the serpent that comes along to tell you that the option he left out is actually more appealing and when you chose it you and the serpent are the bad guys. Seems like manipulation if you ask me...now that you've done this, I have to punish you, you've tied my hands. OR maybe the great mystery is that it sucks being a god, lol, and out of love for his children God says, "Oh no, they're gonna end up like me if they at any time eat of the tree of life. I need to protect them, get them outta there!" LOL The punishment is interesting too. Some of the things that humans get stressed out about the most and the things you just wish you didn't HAVE to do...the pain and strain of birthing a kid and putting food on the table. Why can't it be easy? Well it was that damn Adam and Eve. lol It gives an answer to one of lifes simplest and universal questions. I also find the dirt an intersting aspect of the story. Maybe some sort of metaphor. The serpent is made to slither on his belly (how'd he get around before?) and eat the dirt and man is made to take what he was made from and make something with it. Food. Then crap it right back to the ground. Another weird tidbit of insight on those who wrote the book...nakedness was evil. You know this because 1) after the serpent "beguils" them, A and E put fig leaf aprons over their sexual parts and 2) God makes them skin clothes to cover up after he scolds them. So before the serpent, A and E didn't realise that being naked was being naked? They looked down at each other and said, "that's for making babies"? Makes you wonder what was going on before the beguiling.

I agree with you on everything but the insignificant part. I hear that we are pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things a lot in some of the circles perhaps a number of us run in. While I see the point, I would say that life itself is very significant. Just saying that, is something that nothing else in the universe can do. That is pretty amazing. What are the odds...and here we are. But in a blink all you know and all you are could be gone and you will just be another unfelt, unheard, speck of a speck on a microbe floating in space. So be felt, be heard, and be humble.

Never mind that's Tommy G...I think.

Thats funny I know a TommyZ in a swing band that plays sacs.

OK now it lets me connect but it says enter_name_here and logs me on with that as my handle. Then I still can't type anything. Thankfully no one else was in to see my fumbling. Not that they would have know it was me.

I was just there a few days ago but for the past two days I can't sign in. I can't type anything in the sign in box or do anything on that page, like get help. I know, I know, It's not you it's me.

while your at it define "live".

I will say it again... Go to your local bookstore, buy a copy of "Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith" by John Krakauer, famed outdoor adventure writer. This is a departure from what he is known for, books like "Into the Wild" and "Into Thin Air", BUT it is a very enlightening book that you can't put down. You'll learn more about these FLDS and LDS groups than you ever will on one show of Dr. Phil. I have brought the book up numerous times before because of some of the similarities with TWI and I just think it is important that people become aware of these groups. It has been going on for decades. So why the recent attention? I heard an NPR bit on this same Colorado City group. Apparently the new DA of AZ wants to bust these guys. Something many in the past have either not been able to do or afraid to do. Many think he might pull it off this time. I sure hope so. GO GET THE BOOK

yeah, what Mr. P the dancing banana said.

Oh that is cruel. One of the best places on earth.

Sounds cool, Sir G. Although, I am not sure about the timing. I am usually a late nighter, spending as much time as I can with the family. Or as it is now I am here on occasion during the day. But I will try.

Which brings us to "lest". "And the LORD God said (8799) , Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know (8800) good and evil: and now, lest he put forth (8799) his hand, and take (8804) also of the tree of life, and eat (8804) , and live (8804) for ever: " Lest in our dictionarys today means "for fear that". As in "lest you die". As a side bar, I will say this: can you see mankind's perspective there? TWI we were taught not to fear. The God of the Bible says to his creation "FEAR NOT", yet God said, "you shall surely die" and Eve said, "LEST you die". Perhaps it was not a matter of adding, changing, and deleating words. Perhaps it was a difference in perspective. God says "don't fear, but..." and we say, "holy ****, don't fear what?!" Perhaps even before sin there was fear...the "fear of God". Speaking of the fear of God, back to what I was going to say. Gen. 3:22 says that God said "lest". It sounds as though GOd realised, "Behold", that man was like them, "knowing good and evil", and could still live forever if they ate of the tree of life. Kinda like what the serpent said, "you will not surely die." He knew there was a way around that, eating of the tree of life. So what does God do? Kicks them out of the garden forcibly, flaming swords and all. Was he threatened? Is that why the serpent tempted? an attempt to overthrow God? Is that what GOd was concerned about?

OK take what I said about #1 back. I forgot the tree of life was in the midst of the garden

I've never seen this before.... Gen 2:15-17 then Gen 3:4,5 then Gen.3:22 It is obviously figuretive, but I will do the best I can with what I think are some interesting things if you look at it in a literal or semi-literal way as twi did. 1) Of all the trees in the Garden the tree of life was not in it. Or it was there but God didn't want them to eat it yet. 2) The truth of the matter seems to be in the combination of what God and the serpent said. God did not say anything about becoming like one of them, just that they would surely die. Satan said, they wouldn't surely die, but they would become like one of them. Later God said, "behold they have become like one of us". Holy crap, Satan reveals some truth that God left out! So they surely die. Not really it was all in the big guy in the sky's plan. But man was put in place and told exactly what God wanted them to hear. Did they surely die? TWI said that it was spiritual death, but later spirit could be upon. Doesn't sound like certain death. Eventually, I assume, they die a natural death. But will be raised again some day to live forever. That doesn't sound so "surely" either. Surely they died in this life. the truth of the matter doesn't seem to appear so clearly from one side or the other, but in knowing the good and the evil. Know what I'm saying? 3) Both God and Satan knew good and evil? I don't remember what kind of "know" that was...OK I'll look it up. OK strongs # 03045 - yada' 1) to know a) (Qal) 1) to know a) to know, learn to know b) to perceive c) to perceive and see, find out and discern d) to discriminate, distinguish e) to know by experience f) to recognise, admit, acknowledge, confess g) to consider 2) to know, be acquainted with 3) to know (a person carnally) 4) to know how, be skilful in 5) to have knowledge, be wise b) (Niphal) 1) to be made known, be or become known, be revealed 2) to make oneself known 3) to be perceived 4) to be instructed c) (Piel) to cause to know d) (Poal) to cause to know e) (Pual) 1) to be known 2) known, one known, acquaintance (participle) f) (Hiphil) to make known, declare g) (Hophal) to be made know h) (Hithpael) to make oneself known, reveal oneself and yep the LXX makes it ginosko I'll be back this site I am looking at is interesting.

And +/-ODD, I prefer jazzy technicolor zoot suits.

re-creation as recreation

Well wherever and whatever it is, if it is, I hope it is interesting. Golden streets just sounds a little pretentious. lol Without tears and upsetting emotions, I hope we don't all become unfeeling snobs. +/-ODD, Very interesting. Love death. If fear were believing in reverse and love positive believing, then I guess VP should have taught to love death as you love life. I dig what you and CM are saying. Everything just being infinitely diversified in time and space. Like plugging and unplugging DNA sequences. Infinitely bonding molecules. A contraction and a release on and on. Life to death, and on and on. Matter existing as and within spirit...being niether created nor destroyed. Its just my little hang up of whether we can know these things or not. But it is fun and interesting to postulate. Just a leattle sidetracked. So Def what is the answer. -->