lindyhopper

Hey T&O, Thanks for your imput and up close and personal POV. Was the HFC Vision and Direction paper anything like the one for the corps a few years earlier? Take a look at it here. Sounds like things are a lot like I suspected....in hibernation, waiting for the next opportunity for control to come back out of the closet.

Ok I might have to put on my Bill Nye the Science Guy outfit on and go try that.

I enjoyed a lot of it and had some of the same reactions as Abigail did. I too have an aversion to the word "brokenness." Perhaps "incompleteness" works better for me, even though it sounds more contradictory. I like "Wholeness is not prefect." I think of wholeness as not feeling the extreme needs and wants. Of course there is always food and shelter etc. but I understand what he is talking about with the feeling you can get when in the wilderness. It is one of my most favorite places....the middle of nowhere. In places like that you can forget all your cares and focus on the infinitely smaller intricacies and the expanse of everything at the same time. My wife has even more experience with hiking and backpacking and describes the feeling as a connectedness or loosing yourself. What you are going to eat and where you are going to sleep become your only concerns. I'm surprised of Allan's response to that part of it. I believe you are in New Zealand.....one of the most amazing and beautiful places on earth. Perhaps he was posting in his sleep. I seem to have an talent for seeing things this way whether I am in the middle of the woods or the middle of Manhattan. I guess it is the artist side of me that is always looking at the little things instead of blowing by them. It is not unusual for me to stare off in a conversation making a little composition in my head of the cityscape or the sidewalk. Getting a little sidetracked.... I also struggle at times with my profession vs. my values, as a designer. I try and find a balance. On one hand I don't want good design to only go to the very rich, while on the other I do want to make money in a business. I can spend a ton of time designing a place for someone and shopping for all the comfort items they will need in it, meanwhile I don't want to forget about those that struggle for food and the basic necessities. I want to go as "green" as possible while sticking to the clients' needs and wants. I don't want to support extravagance, but I do want to give people a place that can be that refuge away from the world...a place they feel comfortable, stress free, and happy, if not more whole. I think in my life, in the short time I have been outside of twi, I have gotten quite a bit of wholeness in my life. Alothough, while in it I was definitely living a divided life, as the author describes it. Now, what you see is what you get with me. No games, no masks as Nietzsche would say, but up front and unarmed. Although, I do still tip toe at times around my family that is still in twi. I think it is something that has helped me"weed out" relationships and/or friendships without really trying at all. Somepeople like it, some would rather gossip, backstab, and play games. I tend to agree with the general topic. Although, my twi years still leave a distaste for anything that seems to have a formula for life, but I guess the guy does have to have chapters. I also still don't like catch phrases like "rejoining soul and role", plus it just seems a little cheesey, but I understand the need for those sorts of things. Anyways, thanks and I hope it is ok to post part of the book here.

And here I thought Thesaurus Abuse was what I wanted to do to several of my Way leadership.... HIT THEM REPEATEDLY WITH A THESAURUS! The bigger the better. Come to think of it most of those urges did come around a expanded literal according to Biblical usage definition.

Well, SF, I thought it was obvious, but I assume because it is humpday. Which as we all know comes from the Greek god Humponius. Who (a little known fact) is also the inspiration for the "Jam Pony Express." Which (also a little known fact) is a trigger phrase for me to break out dancing retardedly. see how I bring it back around, full circle.

No, Belle, spoons used for serving.... serving up some whoop-@$$.

Thanks Danny, very informative. Thanks to everyone else as well. I think it is important to get many different views on this type of stuff. I think Abi made a good point a couple pages ago about the big picture. I think we all agree on a few things. Evil or bad terrible things happen. We all struggle....within and without. Great things, fantastic things, unbelievable things happen as well. How we define these things, the language we use, seems to be less important. Although, language can affect us, our view of the world and of ourselves. It can shape how we act, how well we respond and recover and overcome. Does it take personal responsibility out of the equation? A little? a lot? Does it hinder or help you in the internal battle to choose what is good and acceptable? Does it take the most of the decision making, the reasoning, out of your hands? I'm not making accusations, just throwing some things out to consider. I was asking for different views on this as well as the Biblical justification. Maybe it's my problem with authority but, only using the Bible and taking only it's word on the accusation of the devil being all evil all the time, IMO, is kind of like letting your world view to be shaped by only watching Fox News and nothing else. Fans of history will know that those in power write the history. Most of the time anyways. That was why I was also asking for the "other side of the story." IMO, it is always a good idea to consult those books upon books upon books....or in this case, posters. Because, as I said, the story as in the Bible doesn't completely jive for me. I don't mean just the fall, but the long term story. I think there has been a lot of good discussion so far...intresting ideas, theories, and a little history as well. Keep it coming.

Danny, you're surely going to hell for that one.

Perhaps this was a localised rule of thumb, or a rule that they went back on over time. I remember WOWs doing car washes in the early 90s.

I would have to say the doctrines on Debt had a big impact on the direction of my life. I was in college, in one of the best art schools in the country, when it started really being taught heavily. It became a fear of debt. It seemed that the MOG knew that something was going to go down in the world and if you had debt, the collectors were going to come after you. Not to mention the spiritual bondage. I left school after my sophmore year. The teaching and pressure to get out of debt continued and I spent a year or so working 80 hrs a week to pay it all off. Then the prospect of going back to school became much harder, but it was a priority for me. I went back to school the summer after I left twi. It took me six years to get back to school and the road back was an interesting one. It is hard not to regret leaving school the first time but in the end it all worked out. The other doctrine that eventually changed my life was "the integrity of the Word." After a lifetime of swallowing that blindly, I realised I didn't believe it anymore, if I ever did at all, and I left. That has been the biggest change of focus in my life. One I don't regret in anyway.

I don't know, we had car washes and I know other people that did car washes. I can see why they wouldn't want to endorce it when it had to do with raising money for a place to get together. I mean that seems pretty pathetic. I think some people had car washes to rasie money for a class or to go WOW or maybe as a witnessing "event." But, if a church doesn't have enough money to get it's people a place to have a party, that's just pathetic. Perhaps, that is why they didn't want you to do it. They wanted to be the "AMBASSADORS FOR CHRIST" not the broken down church without a church.

The "letting loose" is the interpretation part of private interpretation. It was taught as "one's own letting loose." I don't remember the referencing of "idiot" coming from idios as a loose implication of anything. What is a "loose implication" anyway? I remember it something like..."the Greek word for private is idios. It's where we get our word "idiot" from..." or something to that effect. The little etimological fact had nothing to do with the teaching of private interpretation, yet it was thrown in anyway. It was an implication, nothing loose about it, and not an implication of the origin of the word but of the type of person that would "let loose" and privately interpret. It was an implication of anyone that might come up with a different interpretation than what VPW had come up with.

yeah, yeah, so I could have just looked at a dictionary.... Who's the idios now. What do i think? I think it obviously did come from idios. Although, I think it has nothing to do with the teaching of PI. He threw it out there as a useless and irrelavent fact and implicitly accused anyone who "dared" to use their own brain while reading the Bible of being an idiot....not to mention being out of control like dogs on the game.

Been thinking about this topic recently.... We were taught that "private interpretation" meant "one's own letting loose." That is not really what I want to discuss, we've been over that a bit already. What I remember is that VPW, said idios is where we derive the word idiot. Is this true or is it a suptle way of saying you would be an idiot to privately interpret? Sorry if this is in one of the PFAL fallacies threads, but you don't exactly have an index for those yet. :)

Nice post, +/-ODD Living in the moment would definitely be the end of time(s). The moment of truth. Knowing your way with words, I assume this was not a typo But if it was, it made my day anyway.

Allan, I wouldn't mind a little more clarification on your position. As I see it, you are making quite a few presuppositions. This is what I am looking for, one of the things anyway, the non-rationalist's non-rationalization. First off, the story goes that Lucifer was an archangel not just really nice and holy. I don't know, that seems like a "lest you die" sort of statement. Second, can you sight a chapter and verse on the "progressively more evil" transformation Lucifer made? Entropy....nope, not a foreign concept. LCM is not a good example, IMO. He can and may have already repented, but he was not pure evil. I knew some of his family. I met him. He was not pure evil. He could be nice and he could be a total a$$hole. The Devil went from being archangle to all evil all the time. Another assumtion you made here is that the Devil and his gang had an opportunity to repent and now that time has passed. No grace administration for him I guess? Again, you are getting this from where? Your view on this and that I'll get a straight answer from you. There is always hope though. Yes, just as plausible as any other unvarafiable creation story, but that is not what I am getting at. I'm trying to figure out how you make this story fit with the rest of the Bible's notions of redemption, reconciliation, forgiveness, and free will. Are you saying that if the Devil and his boys wanted to that they could do good? They could switch teams? They could get forgiveness? Not burn in the lake of fire etc,? Doesn't it make more sense that in a world of free will, created by a just God, that he would have to create the evil in order to give individuals the choice. There is Biblical evidence to suggest just that as has been posted. I honestly do want to know your justification for the story of the fall of Lucifer as you know it, because, as I said, it doesn't seem to make sense or fit with the rest of the Bible outside of God's need for evil.

I think Sushi might be right. Check it out Clearly there is a black hell hole right there off of Shades of Death Road..... Hmmm, I think one of life's mysteries has been solved.

That is basically what I remember too, waysider. So Lucifer went from "God's right hand man" (must have been a pretty good angel type dude) to the complete opposite of God, UNABLE to do good (at least not without an evil ulterior motive). How does that make sense?

Ok, I must be confused then. Wasn't there someone here that knew or believed the "Devil's side of the story?" Perhaps a Satanist? A passer-by perhaps. Anyways, thanks for your imput, Oak. The fall of Lucifer definitely doesn't make sense to me. It would make more sense to me for a believer to think that God created the Devil evil, as the other option. If you have free will and God is all good then, as you said, where does evil come from? Again as you pointed out, the history of religion and sepecifically Christianity would shead a lot of light on the subject. Although, it seems to me that many, if not most, Christians don't base there beliefs on history outside of the Bible's take on it. So, my friends, where did the Devil come from?

As I understand the story, the devil used to be an angel, an arch angel, and one day (before there were days) he (before there were "he's") decided to try and overthrow his creator and take charge. There was a battle in heaven and Lucifer was cast out somewhere....down.....here. So I was thinking.....does this make sense? The angel Lucifer, having free will, DECIDEDS to try and take God's place at the "throne" and now is evil. Pure evil. What once had free will, is now only darkness and only evil. The devil doesn't seem to have the capacity to do good, to DECIDE to do good. Everything evil is attributed to him. He has no other desire than to thwart the things of God. All that was once good in him is now gone for eternity. This doesn't seem reasonable or logical to me. I'm interested in how you reason this through. Is it literal? Is the devil a symbol for all the terrible things in the world and bad things people do, a story, a lesson, the opposite of God? It would be nice to hear the other side of the story again. Is our resident Wiccan in the house? What y'all thank?

Twinky's post from another thread made me think of this. There was/is tons of stuff like this. They would spout "there is therefore now no condemnation" in one breath and then do there best to put you there in the next. "Religion is legalistic" was the catch phrase for a while, yet that is so THEM! "You should be motivated out of love, not fear"...then they would try to scare the hell out of you to make you do what they wanted, like get out of debt and give them more money. I was blamed for getting mugged. It wasn't said outright, but they made it my fault, only of course after telling me, "now we're not blaming you." I had to correct my behavior so it wouldn't happen again. We have fun doing the "literal according to usage- Way-isms" threads every once in a while around here. It seems that more often than not what was said and what we now realise it to mean were polar opposites. The latest one: "What a WONDERFUL ministry this is!" You know that on some level most of the people still in know that is not true. They know in there heart or in their gut or in the pain of their a$$, that the only thing TWI is FUL of is cr*p, but that is the opposite of what they are being told therefore it is from Da Adversary. How ironic! The truth coming from the Adversary! "You shall not surely die", you little greasespot! Welcome to the club of the knowledge of good and evil.

I agree, Lori. I don't think I know anyone that uses wonderful anymore, or at least not without being sarcastic. Oh wonderful, now I get to go to the DMV. Shorty, Foot in the a$$? Are you planning on removing their head first, or you just gonna go for the two-fer? A much better use of your feet....you know what these boots were made for.

I hear ya, Hal. I feel the same way. If you are happy where you are today, it is hard to be all that upset and regretfull of the past. If things were different you might not be where you are today, with who you are with today, etc. On the other hand, it is hard not to get really p!$$ed sometimes too.

NA-UH! :o You can't be serious. That is going to keep me laughing through the weekend. 26 muscles you say. I believe that would be 2 x 13, and we all know the biblical significants of that. That's right.... Onion established. Oh God, that is funny. A hand out on all your a$$ muscles? That's unreal. :lol: So was he saying that Leo is like the left cheek and Virgo is the right? The rest of the constellations fall somewhere in a black hole?

I remember the mention of the book too at some point from Meg K!sh, I believe. I think I may have even thumbed through it, but don't know where you might find something like that. I think they must have ditched the "godly color" idea at some piont, perhaps after Athelete of da Spurt. It seemed to me that after that most twi painting/ posters had to be done with all the colors of the rainbow, to make it fabulously gay...I mean Godly. Everything gives off something....lol. I wonder if they know that everything Way Prod and "Devine Design", or what ever they call it now, gives off is LAME and BORING and UNORIGINAL.