houseisarockin

I am fairly certain there was a time when the order of the "lift list" had "the work of the ministry" before your children. Does anyone remember this, or was it a bad dream I had? IF I am correct, there would be no wonder as to how it could have been conceived. And this exceeded the way corps training program, it was held as the example ministry wide.

oldiesman and mj412, because I find things in amongst your words that I agree with completely I continue to read you both in respect to my learning from you. However some of things you both say make my brain hurt and this is one of those. Where does it say she will have a greater fruit basket, golden necklace or "whatever" if she chooses to abort an unborn child? Their belief system means nothing if not founded on how a child can thwart the actions of a servant of God towards Him! Yes it is their set of rules in order to be a part of the training. Yes it is their right to have rules. Yes many have gone through the training with no horror stories to tell. Yes it is...on and on. BUT whether you believe it murder or not makes no difference! Where does it say she needs to abort in order to serve God greater and not be hindered? We are talking about a group that stands on the mountain top and proclaims all that they do and live is according the "rightly divided" Word. It is their claim, not mine!

mj412, although I appreciate your trying to aid in my finding something, my point which I suspect you missed, is no where in the Word does it back it up. Therefore leaders had 'nothing' when thinking it appropriate to abort a child in order to fulfill a commitment to God. I do not believe in a God that would ask such a thing as to kill a child born or unborn. He did not ask it of Abraham (although he was confused as to that for a bit) and He would not ask it of someone in the way corps training either. Thus it was man's decision to lay that unbelievably cruel rap on their open hearted people.

Where in the Word does it say it is necessary for a woman to give up her unborn child in order to serve God better?

rascal, I agree completely! By the way I choose 'fox' over 'wolf' for two reasons. 'She' whose middle name is 'Fox' is as liable as the second mog AND not wanting to use the first part of one of our fine posters screen name. ;)--> mj412, I'm sure you've heard the saying "if only one believes it would have been worth it". Well that is a hard pill to swallow in light of twi. Yet I would agree my life though ravished was in fact also enabled in ways of godly things. Still this does not negate both the documented and the poster spoken (not counting the ones not even aware of GS) accounts. I have forgiven! It took quite a long time for me to do so, and it required my leaving that group as the first step. But I have not forgotten nor has it lessoned their crimes one iota. I did so because I agree with part of what you said. It was required for my healing, plain and simple. I disagree completely! It does come from the top and filters down, the top chose men and women who would follow their mandates and examples and continue downwards their ideology. But it is the responsibility of the head, again the buck stopped there! oldiesman, as for this thread topic, I believe in freedom of choice, which includes critical consideration. I do not agree with using it as birth control. And I know experientially a child is a living thing before it takes its independent breath.

mj412, honesty with ourselves includes acceptance that some foxes came in sheep's clothes. And some did not escape the claws or their lairs. Does God love them less, I think not, but is He disgusted by their behavior, I think yes.

mj412, I was there for close to 20 years scanning twi1 and twi2 and I don't recall ever thinking I had access to aid in the organizing of structure that was not already thought out and implemented by the more noble higher ups. But I will give you your quote "I think people want power in this world and prestige and the ability to tell others". I saw some that fit that to a T. But I also saw others that had pure hearts at the start but were so blinded by the ever-changing ground rules they just got lost. Some are still lost.

I agree with this statement in part. Where did the "group think" come from in the first place? It came from the top traveling on downward. So it still falls back on the man or presently the woman, the buck stops there. But my agreement with you would include our free will to have stayed and allowed the superiority thinking to root in our brain. I have accepted my accountability of that, which has aided in my wholeness. Glad your M & A netted you an exit, certainly there is something to that. Odd how things work sometime. Abigail, excellent point!

mj412, I can understand recognizing things in our lives that need change, and I don't discount I received that while a part of twi. Apparently you felt being titled as Mark and Avoid was appropriate or earned in some way. I disagree that incredibly fallible men could make such an assumption regarding my life. And that to me is the crux of this issue (not the abortion one). It is allowing men who abused the position of spiritual overseers to dictate mandates "in the name of God" that would affect our lives. Have you any idea the number of times we were told in moments of hesitation that breaking our commitment would sever (in part) our tie to God? The Word does not back that up. Rather it says NOTHING can separate us from the love of God. Can we overcome injurious times in our lives? I believe with honesty and hard work most can get to the point it does not have to dictate control. Do I agree we have to remain bitter and victimized? I can only go by myself, my story is one that would allow me the rights to be, but I continue to work towards not having that description. And very simply because they had enough already, I want the rest of my life.

Cherished Child, it doesn't fully answer your question as to whether they still sell the R & E book, but as late as the Nov/Dec magazine they were referring to it in a teaching. Which is quite some time after I was told LCM is no longer on probation and considered not returning (the later part of that I didn't buy however).

To abuse God's people in the name of committed service for Him when He never sanctioned it and no doubt cried as He observed the abuse is incredible. Good thing for the abuser this is the grace administration. To state your story that included an ultimatum given if you truly wanted to grow spiritually, which at times included being cut off from council from anyone else is a horrifying place to be. Only those of us who where there will every truly understand the price paid. Does that negate the truth that some flew through their time in that ministry unscathed at all? No it does not. But it also does not give them a license to deny the ones that were not so fortunate (choice of word used to pi** off lurking eyes). Accountability and perpetual victim mindset factor into these discussions regularly. I don't see rascal denying the first nor do I see her playing the second. For what it's worth!

Your welcome, but I don't think she would have written a book about herself. IMO of course.

bowtwi, I have the book and will share a portion of the preface. Before doing so for those who have not read the book it was done in partnership with her daughter KWM. And she was asked to write it by HA. The idea of writing my husband's biography didn't originate with me. I was asked to do it. Previously when a biography was mentioned, I had thought I would be able to contribute to one. I was very aware that no one else could accurately relate Dr. W's life without my input. He and I were raised in the same community and lived much of our lives together. I felt I knew his life better than anyone else and therefore could reconstruct it most fully and authentically. Thus when I was asked to write a biography of Dr. W, I became thankful to God for the privilege. I chose to begin this book with the historical background of the W family, giving the context into which Dr. W was born. The biography then continues through his school years, his two pastorates, the radio broadcast ministry, our seven-month foreign teaching tour, his resignation from the denomination, the launching of The W Ministry on an independent basis, and moving The W Headquarters to NK, **. In other words, this book covers Dr. W's life from 1916-1961. I plan to continue his life's story from 1961 to 1985 in a second volume. In considering how to tell Dr. W's life story, I certainly didn't want to interpret or analyze him or compare him to any Bible saint. I set out to chronicle his actions and his own words-to let them speak for him. Of course I, as the author, had to decide what to include in the story and what to leave out, otherwise this work would be way too long. There was no second volume completed. Copyright 1996 by TWI

I can't discount that God can tell us something, as it has happened to me. It was for my understanding not someone else. And I agree with what Goey said on it being like a "challenge me" point. But when you're sitting in the auditorium during a corps night teaching and LCM stops in mid-sentence to which we all stop breathing and from the stillness of the room out from his mouth the "river of understanding waters" came, well enough of it could have been true based on understanding so you bought it. He wasn't doing one of those (whatever her names is) that tells the future and didn't know she was going to be busted for charging her callers in excess of the fine print. Whatever the "Father told me" was often believable. Mixed in with our pure desire to believe he was that locked in to God.

That particular church seems to have mastered an explanation. In part having to do with whomever it was stating the truth in the first place. When it was VPW it was 'the gospel' but when he gave the reins over to LCM and he took us places VPW had not it was considered an accomplishment due to the springboard on which LCM could work from. Taking us higher, thus it did not negate the truth but rather delved deeper into God's understanding of the particular matter. Then because LCM had great difficulty keeping it in his pants (well he learned that from the same source also, but that is another story) he lost the reins and it was given over to the evil fox (her middle name is Fox by the way). Now she can and does say she has a springboard to work from. But the tricky part there is she reverted back to the first in a hope that the disciples would forget the second. When it is convenient! If there was something good he did then it is still okay to mention the source under your breath while coughing, so as to not actually say the words LCM. But if there was some control points she does not want to take credit for she blames them off on the second. -->

No, they include medical treatment for ailments. They consider it part of God's working in the situation. But the source of the illness is the questionable part. And even that varies on who it is that is sick. I remember LCM being ill once and just wasn't able to overcome it. Soon afterwards the 'believer doctor' that was caring for him revealed some lack in his life and thus it was explained off as the doctors problem rather than that of LCM's. The thing about that ministry is just when you think you have an understanding of their doctrine they up and change it on you. Something about keeping the disciples off balance, making for an easier target to control. Gosh have I completely run a muck in my direction here. :P-->

Goey, LMAO! :D-->

Refiner, actually The Way is adamant the Word tells us we will not know the time or season of Jesus Christ return. As stated by TheInvisibleDan. And I don't think George Aar thinks they teach that. I could be wrong on that. If I am I know he will correct me. :)--> However, as George Aar stated they teach the stopping or starting of things based on their "household believing", whichever direction is most advantageous to do so. As far as healing goes, for the most part they teach if someone dies it is because they gave up. I was told that VPW died because he stopped willing to live. This handy explanation of theirs also includes the adversary getting in when it works to their advantage. For someone to just plain be sick and then get healed usually requires some dissection into the person's life to see where they let their guard down. That person may never be told of it but chances are they are being spoken about by their leadership. They believe George Bush made it to this Presidency because they came together as a household and believed it into being. (I preferred him over the alternative myself) Today they may teach something else, maybe even something like the spin they put on LCM being the right man for the job at the time.

Yes! And don't mind you asking at all. :)-->

Refiner, sorry for the derail comment but that last paragraph of yours could be a topic unto itself over in The Way forum. -->

Yes! Both she and Donna knew of their husbands activities.

What it was like in the beginning of my involvement. The sweetness of discovery. And friends, or so they were when I was one of them.

Actually there was some talk about putting together a 'Life Lines' sort of thing for LCM's one liners. I'm not sure how far along it got before a few of his secrets hit the outside world.

Garth that is what I was taught as well. rascal I bought the first breath thing even though I had considered what you just posted. I allowed myself to be convinced it still meant the baby's breath independent of the mother's oxygen supplied. After all who was I to beg to differ with the two MOG. Gee whiz!

Showing emotion's in The Way (twi) is mixed. As a low man on the totem pole you are not to show emotions based on the notion it can rule your life rather than head knowledge. It weakens your guard thus allowing ungodly things to take roost just like you quoted. However, if you are a leader showing emotions it is an indication of "spiritual anger" which is lauded as a very godly thing. For me personally one of the hardest memories to overcome was the tears shed by the top leader a few years back, it made him human, what an odd thought, at the time I was that mentally pliable.