sirguessalot

perhaps another way to look at it, is that all 7 stages add up to a "super-stage"...or all "angels" are under an "arch-angel"...just like all notes fit within an octave...and between birth and death is a full spectrum of small births/deaths. yet what seems to happen so often in Christianity these days, is that people are considered "born again" simply for moving from stage 1 to 2, or stage 2 to 3...like when people say "i would have died if not for twi"...or when someone is delivered from drugs and gangs and such by finding and accepting a family of support in a church group (moving from 1 to 2), maybe even growing to becoming a leader in the church (moving from 2 to 3). not to dismiss the very valid and important healing in either of these...but to point out that it is probably not the whole journey of faith...not even enough to make it through the whole first half of the process...as if we are mistaking graduation from a grade or two with graduation from school. but even then, even the fuller "graduation from school" is as much an accomplishment to be puffed-up about as being born, where the appropriate response is probably more like... .

to add...imho, all this supports the notion that a very large part "original Christianity" was a reawakening of the original wisdom of jewish "end-of-life spirituality"...where the highest calling was to play the role of "spiritual midwife"... 1 Thess 2:7...But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children

ok...i think i'm following you better now, Roy...while it is valid to look at such stages is as the path of becoming an adult, or a grown-up, or somehow wise...or becoming spiritually mature... ...an even bigger picture seems to be...that the seven seals are like stages of gestation, and we are like babes developing in the womb throughout this life... ...and just as our development in the womb (the first time) prepared us for this life outside the womb, the stages of this life are preparation for the next order of life that comes after we die (even if we taste it prior to dying). as if this final lesson is both 1) a message to someone who is dying and 2) a message to a baby who is about to be born

i'm not much into talking about who is where and such, except in a very general sense...and i trust everyone can read about this kind of stuff and chew on them as possibilities long before coming to conclusions, and hopefully handle it all lightly for awhile... ...but for what its worth brother...what you wrote here: does not seem very likely if you wrote it...or this: in fact, i doubt very many in Fowler's stage 1 or less are even able to post at the gsc. due to things like not having much of a sense of self, not having words, not having a moral reason to do so, and basically not having much to say to anyone else at all. i think its helpful to understand that aspects of earlier stages of faith continue as we grow into later stages...which can sometimes give the impression that we have not grown beyond them because those qualities are still alive and well. this often happens to me whenever i read through any developmental map, seeing the qualities of early stages of my life still working in my self...childhood issues and such. i would even go as far as to clarify that my example of vpw reflecting stage 1 is less about him being fully at that stage, but that regardless of what stage he was at, the qualities of his stage 1 experience somehow dominated his leadership style.

heerz to 10

to add...imho, Fowler's stage 6 is lacking, and can be further divided into 6 and 7...perhaps mostly due to him not having many examples to consider the variations in the upper atmospheres...but also because other developmentalists have. and...if the 7 seals are any indication of Jesus Christ's curriculum and measure of faith...6 is simply not enough.

some thoughts... imho...all this also highlights the limits (and perhaps even "unscriptural" basis) of oversimplified black-and-white "faith or no-faith" models...aka one is "on or off the word"…or one “has or does not have faith”...and reminds us of the wisdom behind teaching our children well…and even cultivating a cultural story that gives us permission to change, even radically if we must…rather than the “permanent childhood” we currently adore…and this sense of ”I want you to stay exactly who you are forever.” perhaps one can see where the faith of vpw/twi/pfal fits in all this, for example...and not to condemn or judge vpw/twi more than they already are, but to learn...perhaps even empower us to help those stuck there to grow in faith wherever we may meet them...if we are lucky not to be stuck the same way. twi's extreme degree of mistrust of the world, for example..."satan and devil spirits everywhere plotting our demise"...is perhaps the result of a common experience most all of us had at "stage 0"...simply for being born in a century of industrialized and over-marketed terror and anxiety. Even though we are not likely to get stuck at "stage 0," the way are born these days certainly seems to color our later interpretations of life...including other forms of paranoia and extreme suspicion outside of a Christian context. "stage 1" reminds me of why leaders like vpw are unable to curb the most base desires...from having no filter for the unconscious drives pouring into us from simply being the spiritual human animals we are...and projecting their own failures and limitations onto the rest of the world. If a child does not develop beyond this kind of faith, we still grow into adults, and yet remain at "stage 1" til the end of our life....aka tyrants and oppressors. and while stage 2 is more developed than stage 1, stage 1 is more driven to rise to the top in leadership...and both stage 2 and 3 are known to follow stage 1 leaders, due to the parental persona the leaders project, household/brotherhood/familial bonding they themselves lack, and a need for others to conform to their will. sound familiar? and while many who reach "stage 4" also drop the christian language for a new worldview, it seems mostly because there are far fewer organized "stage 4" christian views (and beyond) in the world...though there are still plenty...here at gsc, and elswhere. …but as if they are somehow “hidden by the woods” ...or even merely inaccessible due to the limits of an economic/educational system...or simply buried by mountains of empty information and disinformation...or out of reach due to cynicism and plain ole exhaustion. There is also a strong rejection of stagelike development today, both in and out of Christianity, and especially by faith between stage 4 and 5...and this is ironically perhaps one of the leading causes of childish (not childlike) adults in charge of the world. If we reject development of morality, or development of subjectivity…what else will we do but fail to support the develop of such? More and more, we seem to support and promote and celebrate immature values and behavior...which is perhaps a large part of what the ancient visionaries predicted. btw...i only use words like "stage" and such in this instance because of Fowler's language...and because its partially useful. But I personally prefer to think of "stages" in terms of musical progression, prismatic progression, and punctuated equilibriums...and like those radical shifts we see in the womb. And i also feel that models like Fowler's are best understood as being a general "view from 100 miles up"...and lacks the perfectly messy details of the terrain that are also here...that make us all so unique and complex...even organic. Different personality types grow through the same stages in very different ways...so while development is critical to discern stages of growth...there is a danger of overgeneralization without an equal recognition of different types of critters we are.

a few more...words in bold seem particularly related to measuring stages of maturity and worth looking at in the Strong's...which you can see following the hotlinks... Romans 12:3... For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 2 Corinthians 10:15...Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly Ephesians 4:13...Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect (Teleios) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: of course, looking into the wider context of each is even more illuminating, especially if the writer really was writing about how to live and be with each other in light of a developmental nature of faith. imho, developmental maps like Fowler's can not only go a long way to confirm that Jesus Christ and the writers of scripture were mature enough to recognize this, or to help Christians understand where faith can get stuck, but that it is more than ok for our faith to "fall apart" from time to time...in fact, this is necessary in order to become wise.

a few verses that seem to reflect the developmental nature of faith... Psalms 12:6...The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Proverbs 24:16...For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief. 1 Peter 1:7-9...That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end (telos) of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 1 Corinthians 13:10-11...But when that which is perfect (teleios) is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. Hebrews 5:12-14...For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age (teleios), even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

some links and quote from the links for consideration... Theology Today article on Transformation in Faith and Morals... Fowler's Faith Development in Profile... James Fowler's Stages of Faith Development...

a few interesting articles with plenty to consider... Jewish Folklore Christian Mythology

a quick note dear brother, to say i have been trying to respond to these very potent (and potentially "dangerous") questions in spite of the "yes or no" way they were asked, yet this rapidly became a small book of thoughts on the matter...too lengthy for posting here. so both "yes and no" and "neither yes nor no" will have to suffice for now for all three. ...and i'll point back to the "...might be worth comparing to..." of my original response.

this article on Nondualism might interest you, Roy

are you looking for a word like "enigma?" "mystery?" "riddle?" "koan?" somehow ends with a question mark...not a period? sometimes i wonder if the great spiritual manifestion of the "word of wisdom" in scripture is not so much a supernatural power, but rather the extra-ordinary but oft-overlooked capacity to simply ask well.

maybe...you tell me when i read what you wrote...seems to me that you are unable to reduce to "either-or" type answers...and are more-or-less "stuck" with a "both-and" kind of answer. reminds me of an old saying about how a wise rabbi might answer a "yes or no" type question...with a "well...yes, and no."

Indeed It even seems that once one can accept the Bible as a body of many genres of folklore, one is able to freely and honestly compare them to other world scriptures without fear. Out of this freedom to compare comes degrees of clarity and insight regarding the Bible that was previously not possible from reading the Bible alone, even confirming the notion expressed in the Bible that there are forms of language and wisdom and understanding that transcend (but includes) all human language...such as how Christ has a name that is beyond all names...yet quite involved in all of them...and we can speak in a tongue that is beyond all languages and races. As if we are finally able to swim in the ocean of language we were once drowning in...maybe even surf the waves.

Also...poetry. Plenty of spiritual poetry in all the books of the OT and NT.

to clarify...i dont think all books of the Bible are as storylike as others. Psalms, for example, is more like a songbook. Ecclesiastes is clearly more philosophical. And the NT has plenty of instructional writings. And there seems a place where story and history overlap. The Gospel story, or the story of Acts, for example.

well, i cant say that God or Moses did or did not do this, that or the other things...but i can at least say that these stories exist in our histories. and while this alone does not answer questions like "what does this or that part really mean?"...it at least solves a few other problems, and provides a new place to grow from.

for what its worth... seems to me, that of the many many ways scripture is viewed, there are perhaps 3 broad categories... - scripture is NOT a story, it is truer than science! - scripture IS a story, therefore it is worthless! - scripture IS story, and is worth A LOT as such! imho, the third option is the most valid, historically, practically, and otherwise...and is most likely to lead to the end of this seemingly endless and circular enmity between faith and reason, and an authentic restoration of the judeo-christian heritage.

ok...trying again to clarify why i hesitate so often about this... …basically because my doctrinal views on the matter are currently so different than the views of most Christians who post here, and the typical reaction to this (here and elsewhere) seems to be some form of fight or flight (or preach in order to convert). Not that I only want to have a conversation with those who agree…I value a robust debate…but sometimes the responses include so many points of disagreement I honestly don’t know where to begin. Please accept my apologies, Gen-2, for inviting the conversation then backing off. Maybe i will find a better way to participate here some day. Thanks again for trying.

"Maturity" seems like another way of saying things like "evolution," "growth," "transformation," and "development." As such, maturity is the nature of life and reality. As if everything is either "on the move" or trying to be. For those who claim Jesus Christ to be the model of maturity, spiritual or otherwise, the 7 seals of The Book of Revelation might be worth comparing to the work of the developmentalists of the last century...moral-development, cognitive-development, ego-development, faith-development, needs-development, etc... As if, with every "seal" that is broken, another filter is removed, and we are that much more "awake," and in need of re-interpreting everything once again.

Thanks, Gen-2, for your thoughts on the matter. While I agree with some points you’ve made so far, I strongly disagree with others…enough to question whether or not to enter the hypertextual fray and speak my mind. Not that we won’t all learn something from each other…but reading around, I get a sense it will cost more than I currently have to give, in terms of time and energy and other things. Perhaps you understand. Maybe some other day. And thanks for the vote of confidence, Roy...and again for starting the thread. Sometimes I wish we lived down the street from each other...maybe talk about Spinoza and Christ while building something. As the Celts might say…”May you have a happy death!”

wondering if anyone feels/thinks it's possible that the changes in our attitudes towards death and dying (in the west or elsewhere) are related to (or reflected by) our changes in religious thought and experience, doctrine and practice? and if so, how? ...or if not, how?