sirguessalot

Jbarrax, I do know what you mean. And I understand why you would consider what I wrote far-fetched. But we are obviously writing from fundamentally different places, so I'll just let it go at that to avoid the common tussle. But thanks for the stray comments my way.

lol, Dot. Or "wishing you were" exhausted. lol And did you know that Dot is Todd in reverse?

oops. I would go back and edit "dot" to "point" but then your post would not make much sense now, would it? And now that I've written this, you would have to go back and edit your post to something else, but then... So, shhhhhhhhh.... :P--> :D--> :)-->

In essence, this is exactly what I am saying too. And its because the brunt of the destructiveness of homo-masculine possessiveness hits feminine energy squarely between the eyes, and the puts "her" out on the street. Again, I apologize. I probably should clarify my strange position a bit further. When I speak of "him" and "her" in conversations like this, I speak of two universal planes of force that we all exist on. What we perceive as our personal individual physical gender is but a thin veil. Every line of energy and dot of matter in the universe is involved in a relationship of sexual exchange (or wishing it was). ;)--> ewwwww! And so maybe its my broader application of the H-word that is making things difficult for me. Todd btw - thanks a million for at least trying to work out the meaning. That means a lot to me.

Socks, cool cat stuff. I live with 2 males and 2 females (cats). Trefor, sorry. I did not make myself clear enough. I agree with you more than you can possibly know. Maybe I should have written, "the kind of homosexuality that does harm is when a spiritually masculine (machismo-aggressive-right-mind "all that is holy must be male") entity (be it a nation, religion...whatever) partners with ONLY other spiritually masculine entities/mindsets, and together, they try and subject/banish all thoughts and virtues that are spiritually feminine because they are erroneously perceived as weak, deceived, give away too much of our stuff, etc... I suppose one might even say that most homosexual men do not necessarily have the true problem of biblical homosexuality (though we all may have our share of other problems). But warmongering right-wing polito/religious "fatherhoods/brotherhoods" do (such as TWI's). The religious male-only clubs, with minds hell-bent on possessing things such as truth, flesh, real estate, etc.... Sure, man-only-clubs can also be homo in the flesh. But relationships of the heart are what counts, right? Sexuallity of the flesh is only skin deep, IMO. There IS sexuallity of the soul, AND of the spirit. Then, in light of these deeper things, there are also marriages, offspring, microcosms and macrocosms to consider. Sorry if this is still unclear. I have enough material to write a few books on the subject, so it is hard to summarize without going off in a million directions (and so its no wonder I haven't written the thing yet - I post here too much ;)--> ). peace Todd [This message was edited by sirguessalot on September 25, 2003 at 14:08.]

I hear ya, Ginger. Everyone knows that ya really shouldn't mess with a mama bear's cubs. ;)--> I'm a bit worried that my above points will be misunderstood. I guess I'll have to wait and see.

Sorry, Zix. I'm not sure what to say to you. peace

I?ve only scanned this thread, so forgive me if I missed anything. The gist of this roller-coaster seems to be about sexuallity, spirituality, and TWI. So I?m gonna butt in, make a quick observation, then butt out (if I can). 1) I think that most of the personal power VPW used to build his ministry came from stealing the dunamis from women who trusted him sexually. Yes, much like good ole' count Dracula. 2) I think the true deep sin of male homosexuality is when masculine spirituality gets together and virtually excommunicates feminine spirituality (regardless of personal gender or physical sexuallity). The endless wars and aggressions of humanity are the result of this spiritual man-to-man. 3) I think the true deep sin of female homosexuality is when spiritual femininity gets together in order to make up for what is lacking from male spirituality (regardless of personal gender or physical sexuallity). And so ?she? is also willing to trade the true power of her sexuallity for anything (which is way less than it is truly worth). 4) Just because the feminine has been second to man since the dawn of time does not mean that this is the natural state of things. The masculine has been in charge for a long time, but has really consistently messed it up, no? Do you think women would allow the world to be ravaged by war, hunger and slavery for all these millenia? 5) Like I may have mentioned on another thread, the healing of the "virgin" and ?bride? seems to be on the top of Christ?s list. So, why not the church?s, like Ephesians says? Maybe someday soon, Heaven and Earth will meet again. Peace

I knew her well, lvdon. Email me if you like.

Hey! I'm in Mesa right now. But I only moved to the valley in 99. Sorry no help.

My primary intruments are electric bass guitar and my vocal chords. But I can keep a beat on a drum or drumset and make decent music with a piano or keyboard. Wind instruments might be my next thing. I am currently investigating music's role in white magic alchemy, as well as in speaking with tongues and various forms of shamanism and chakra-work. My wife won 2 tickets to Lollapalooza on the radio, and so I enjoyed that show this Friday: Jane's Addiction, A Perfect Circle, Incubus, Audioslave, Jurrasic 5, and others. I only wished it were twice as loud. ;)--> Todd

Thanx Zix. What, no canals? (I feel dumb) Next thing yer gonna tell me is that there are no martian amazon princesses either? ;)-->

Amen There are times for peace, and times for war.

Please do, Zix. Hey, is it true that you can see the canals with a set of binochs? I also read that Mars will be largest in the sky around the end of the month. Do you know how "large" it's gonna get? Todd

Mars Looming Large in Evening Sky Anyone seen it yet? Awesome. Full moon, Perseid, and a bright red star... ...its gonna be a good show tonight. ;)-->

Thanks alfakat. VL, yeah. I know I spazzed a bit. I'm sure others did too.

Good question, VL.Heerz my take on it. It helped me to see that vpw/twi/pfal was really a small part of a larger movement in Christianity. About a century ago, as publishing modernized, the availability of reference books increased. What was once the arcane realm of theological academia became every wannabe prophet’s fantasy. Like a gold rush, the non-denominational movement was on. Traditional back-woods bible-thumpers (bless their heart) found a new tool to “really really really unlock the secrets of the bible universe.” Laymen who weren’t learning from tradition saw a way to start their own thing. An already-fractured protestant Christianity bubbled with new independent bible studies, groups, camps, and universities. The increased availability of things like radio, film, and tape blurred previous denominational lines to mud. Mix this with the veritable zoo of non-bible spiritual/psychological movements and publications, and a quite ecclectic Christianity was born--a grass-roots holy spirit free-for-all. VPW was surfing its waves to pseudo-independence. You know, “I wanna be different, like everyone else.” Then the counter-culture of the 50s and 60s must have really whipped it all into a frenzy of non-conformity. And then you throw in Christian bookstores, strip-mall fellowships, video and cheap rent-a-halls, and a wide variety of MOGFODATs popped up. So many, I would say that they were largely ignorant of all the other claims of MOGFODAT-hood. And since then, the age of information has really muddied the waters even further. In short, it seems like a few generations of bible hacks and faith-based Ponzi schemes had all discovered books at once…and simply spazzed out. btw – I try not to place a value of good or evil on this “reformation” as a whole. I think both hurt and harm comes out of societal shake-ups--regardless of any of the “shakers” quality or intentions. There are always genuine teachers with hearts of gold, tho few and far between, as it usually is with gold. Another topic, I suppose. ;)--> Todd

Gingertea, thanks for clarifying. Sorry, I brought it back up, lol

Thanks, Wordwolf. I love that kinda stuff.

I AM trying to discuss the details of the Word, and WHAT WE WERE TAUGHT. How come you miss this? And I never mentioned nobility. NOT ONCE. And its YOU who initiated discussion of who's sharp and whose lazy. In fact, it has been foundational to your message to the GSC. So stop trying to pull my leg on this. No. Cuz you aint the guy to sort out everyone else's experience. You might have a knack, and some truly amazing gifts... But you have missed some important things. There are things you CANNOT know, but continue to claim to know without substance. Welcome to the body of Christ, pal. Wow! That's it, huh? If I know yer wrong about something, then just excuse myself from reading further? Go away and don't bother debating the issues with you? Look, I value something as much as you do, in a different way, and this includes your fellowship, but the closer I try to get, the more of a thumbsucking spiritual chickensh!t you SEEM to become. Tho I?m willing to bet that its not the real you. Doesn?t this mean anything to you? Yer right. I should know by now that no one can talk you out of your ego trip. ;)--> Be honest and just tell me to go away, Mike. And I will. Promise. But know that I AM still interested in discussing things PFAL with you, and probably more than anyone else I know. Do you even give a sh!t why? Cuz I doubt you can know without my input. Clue: it has nothing to do with ego or blame or guilt or fear. --- re: The Ubiquitously Hidden Teaching of VPW "The greatness of the Power for Abundant Living Class is not in what I say, but in the greatness behind what I say." VPW This is why I think mastery of PFAL does not require mastery in the letter of it. But mastery of the greatness behind it. When you master what is BEHIND PFAL, it become second nature and takes you to a higher place, quite beyond what is written in PFAL. Beyond even what VPW thought he had. So I think we are on the same track, but ending up in different places. Fine with me. But I don't think PFAL is the only revelation that will do this. It just happened to be the one revelation that did it for me. And I WILL speak for myself on this. Cuz I?ve seen more, too. If you don?t even want to consider possibilities I?ve mentioned in an mutual and honest manner, fine. But please, be clearer than you have. Cuz you keep saying you DO want to consider unexplored possibilities of PFAL. Then you yank the opportunity away. This is foul. Just know that I HAVE deeply considered what you?ve written to me in private and public. And my mind has changed about quite a few things because of it. But you ain't playing by yer own rules. And this too is foul and hurtful and seems quite selfish. Todd [This message was edited by sirguessalot on July 22, 2003 at 15:28.]

real quick... Mike, I know you are tight on time with all yer posting, but you really seemed to skip some of the more pertinent points in my prior post. Especially regarding my personal experience with PFAL. Just pointing it out, cuz I honestly wish you wouldn't do it to this last one too.

Good evening/morning, Mike. I don?t believe that you, personally, have the ability to know this. Yet, you wrote, towards the end of your response: What is this 'not-even-once-in-2-millennia' statement but a very broad and loose blanket accusation? Its like you are accusing everyone in the body of Christ of two millenia of spiritual inferiority. That?s a tough sell, even by biblical standards. I say again, that no one in the old testament ever claimed such a lengthy spiritual drought. Another blanket accusation that you are supposedly generally careful in? And another cut to the bone for those (like me) who cherish what I learned via PFAL, particularly in the availability of direct revelation and its inherent nature of being anti-tradition. Besides, are you actually saying that YOU know who and/or how many people are able to believe a direct revelation in 2k years of history? "VERY few" is still a few. So, who are they, since you seem to know that there are indeed a few? What do you mean, ?the first to breathe in?? There were 12 on Pentecost who were all the first to breathe in, in one regard. And the first to truly breathe in things such as the revelation of the mystery of Christ in you was Paul. I honestly don?t understand what you are implying with your rhetorical question, so I?ll let you explain when you get a chance. I?ll agree (in part), but even then, what does being unique signify, spiritually? Besides, are you implying that I value the cool Hollywood style over spiritual wisdom? No argument here. Seems par for the course when it comes to most spiritual teachers. Though I do believe that some have been wiser than VPW to avoid such inefficiencies and complications when conveying spiritual matters. Wisdom and moderation are spiritual principles, especially of ministers, it seems. huh? (blink?blink) We might have to just let these statements of yours hit the wind and fly, cuz it just seems like nothing but your general and oft-repeated statement of beliefs. Fine. But in the midst of all our reasoning, it seems kinda redundant and out of place. I think most everyone already knows what it is that you believe. I know. I know. But you DO seem to be saying that YOU know (by revelation or superior data or something) that no one has learned as much from PFAL after the 80s. Or that no one could possibly have. But is ?less natural motivation? really a guarantee of the negative outcome? Or just a fear of yours? Do you actually think that because you think everyone in a certain category is inclined to be lazy, that everyone in that category will therefore be lazy, without exception? (yeah, my wording is intentional) Mike, I honestly feel we could learn more from each other were you not so clumsy with your presumptions about everyone else?s ability and willingness and spirituallity. People have risen up and believed against all odds, ya know. The bible is full of stories about em. So, what? No one has "a lot of determination?" And again, does being among the "less inclined" spell certain spiritual doom? Besides, what if all I knew of were the ?good years,? and had no cult fears, or knew of no sex scandals, and studied bigtime in meekness and isolation from corrupt TVT for 5 years? Mike, I got what VPW was teaching. And all I had were his written words. I never met him in the flesh. I never knew him in the flesh. And as I mentioned before, my dearest friends were OLGs, many of them from single-digit Corps who came back to PFAL but did not serve in leadership capacity any more. They just shared with me their WISDOM from ?the good old days? as loving friends are known to do. They were content to serve alongside me outside of the Corps structure. This is where you could have fooled me, bigtime! Cuz I consider myself an exception, even according to your "seemingly practical rule of thumb." But in both public and private, you have rejected my fellowship, unless it is on YOUR terms. (And the fellowship of others here, too, it seems. But I can only speak for myself.) Of course. Its Job?s fault. Its Satan?s fault. It?s Eve?s fault. Its TVT?s fault. Its OLG?s fault. etc? But we've already played around here before to no avail. Call it a stalemate, I guess. IMO, blame and guilt are of the spirit of anti-Christ anyway. Period. And one of the oldest tricks and strongest forces in the book. They build fear, which, of course, defeats the promises of God. Again with what seems like a foolish presumption that if people are inclined to fall for the trick, then they must have fallen for the trick? Am I misunderstanding you or something? I hope so. Cuz it speaks poorly of your opinion of other people in general. An OLG, whom I knew like a brother and worked and served with, recalled how VPW confronted him once. This OLG was coming down on people at HQ for their lack of believing, and VPW just asked him something like, ?What do you think of people in general?? in order to reprove him. That was what was defeating this OLG?s believing. He told me how he then learned from VPW's correction how his own overall view of the ability and willingness in his brothers and sisters in Christ was skewed by his impatience and the senses results, and how his own fear of them failing defeated his ability to lead them. This OLG told me of another time when one of his Corps brothers didn?t want to work, and so sat out. The OLG was a bit ticked, but VPW told him to let the guy sit and watch the rest of us work, and then enjoy the fellowship and reward of serving together. He said something like "he?ll get it on his own time. We just have to give him something that he?ll get. And that?s serving." Of course, I am paraphrasing a paraphrased lesson, but the wisdom was there, and stuck with me. I can work with almost anyone now. But this brings me to a big reason why I think so many of your antagonists have you in perpetual defense of your corner. Its like you have a sharp stick in your hand and don?t know it. Huh? And I can wrap my mind around some pretty complex paradigms, but this is a doozy. Its like its missing a big piece or something? Or just a spasm of superfluous language. Please explain. But did you read the next 4 paragraphs you wrote? Is it really safe for you to say this? Isn?t it safe to say that you can?t possibly know what everyone has or has not mastered? Its like you would selectively believe that guys like me merely ?picked up many research techniques? rather than saw consistent spiritual understanding and power in application. Application was always key for me. And in service. Otherwise, there was no ultimate profit in what I was doing. There couldn't be. Mike, if someone (or group) does master PFAL today, what do you think would it look like? Honestly. Paint me a picture, please. What if I told you that I did master PFAL, and in doing so, it freed me from the bars of its crib? Would you even try to believe me? Would you even want to try? I did read your emails on the subject, more than once. I got something else out of them. But I got what you were saying too. So gimme some credit some time, will ya? I agree. But what about guys like me? Should you keep yourself from looking at what I?ve told you as an ego trip? Its like you assume that everyone else suffers from a variety of self-deceptions, then are surprised when people are insulted by it. And why, in God?s name, do you presume that no one else ever wanted to or wants to find the deeper things of PFAL? Honestly, how can you be SO damn sure of this that you?ll stand on a thread for months and accuse OLGs of things like spiritual laziness and forgetfulness, which has led to their spiritual deterioration and inferiority? And then also accuse us non-OLGs (like me) of simply being introduced to PFAL too late to possibly find its true spiritual potential? Is there now some sort of fate principle in PFAL, which deals people a bad spiritual hand if they were simply born too late? Why do you so tie God?s hands with your own fears? Doesn?t God?s willingness and ability far exceed yours and mine when it comes to PFAL? I contend that none of the three things are spiritually safe for YOU to say in the first place. Besides, why are the bonecutters necessary? I know, I know. Prophets call people back to the Word, and the Word is good for doctrine, for reproof and for correction. And the reproof can really require some pointed words at times. And men of God are almost always ridiculed and mocked, particularly when they are dishing out the reproof. And so on. But I think we both know that the response is not what proves a prophet?s salt, right? --- Mike, is it possible that you have certain fears that keep you yourself from seeing the greater promises of God come to pass? Is it? Todd [This message was edited by sirguessalot on July 22, 2003 at 6:53.]

Ginger, I am not sure what you are implying. Honestly. Or to whom you are implying it?at. ;)--> Its like you are writing in some sort of code, or beatin around the bush. Maybe I just aint payin well enough attention. ;)--> God knows my writing comes out more cryptic than I like. So, am I a SLOB, a farter, or a nasty person? I greatly respect your insight, but just don?t happen to understand what your insight is at the moment. Peace, Todd

oh, oh... what am I? what am I? ;)--> Yes, tiz nuthin but a stitch in time. And the world keepsa turnin on its own. :)-->

But this seems a tad harsh, def: Maybe its just the way you put it?