sirguessalot

In the womb, sometime shortly after conception. I heard my mother's breath like the winds of heaven above my head. And felt her breath pulse and flow to my belly and heart through a silvery cord. :P--> :D--> But, so as not to derail, I'll post more on the holy spirit thread in doctrinal. :)-->

Nice thread, VL. Good conversations going. I've learned that learning to breathe fully with our entire body-mind is much like losing a foreskin, or losing? the hymen, or something. Doing so, activates a variety of one-time physiological changes. And physiological changes stimulate emotional change, and then more behavioral change. But we can go our entire life and never "do it," or "just barely and accidentally do it." In other words, maybe never in our life will we fully experience the full extent of what our body-mind (i.e lungs, blood, bones, nervous system, hormones, organs, tissues, etc...) is capable of. This is a tragedy of "Biblical" proportions, imo. Air is vital energy. Free. Abundant. It helps us understand God and everything. Air = negative space = feminine = help-meet = helps grow = like air helps trees grow = we are trees within trees within trees...). Our lungs are a big part of the tree of life. You ever seen a lung? Likewise our veins? Nervous system? etc... Tree after tree after tree. But once we learn some basics, we find that our body-mind is structurally capable of breathably manipulating oxygen in our organs all the way from our pelvic floor up to a half dozen places in our throat and skull. Some of my initial/initiating breathwork experiences were exciting (and even troubling) at first (like a first kiss), but have leveled off steady (more like marriage). But the science of using the planet's air to heal and enlighten the human body-mind was already thousands of years old when Jesus taught and demonstrated it (though that knowledge or teaching of it was not what made him unique, it was hugely important to his chosen audience (the squeaky wheel gets the grease, right?)). I know this may sound "unspiritual," but I am speaking with a largely "unspiritual" voice. If I was to use "spiritual" voice, I would say something like to practice and develop breathwork makes one "a disciple of the holy breath." But religious labels can get so troublesome at times. Besides, air is not The Spirit. ;)--> But be smart about it, and educate yourself on breathwork as you practice. Search and read and find students and teachers. Like all things, misuse is possible. In my own temple/framework of life, I put almost all breathwork on the lower planes of body and soul. The air of the world is NOT the ultimate Spiritual plane. peace

IMO, Jesus made most of his best mistakes on purpose. ;)--> I mean, c'mon, he insulted and offended and challenged and threatened empirical warmongers and patriotic racist control-freaks. That is stupid and self-destructive behaviour, but oh so brilliantly so. Heerz a question: did the Father make mistakes? I mean, not having a mother to raise him, and all. ;)--> ;)-->

Hi all. Saw What the Bleep last week... Humorous. Kind of an after-school special feel, but for adults (cussing, smoking, drinking, etc...). Done in a voice fit for the market it was intended. I liked the irreverent delivery, most of all. Kooky cast. Tip of the tip of the iceberg, though. Well-placed and helpful conceptual hints. Oh, and I walked and worked and hung out on most every street corner where it was filmed. It was kinda fun to recognize my hometown while watching, rather than knowing beforehand. 2life, re: breathwork I'll add my understatement of the week... To follow the breath is like following that rabbit down the hole. :D--> About a year ago, after my first real plateau in breathwork, I quit smokes, coffee, garbage sugar, radically changed my diet such. All at once, all in one week! no ****. It was kinda easy (but the after-effects and reactions have been kinda wild). It seems, the more I understood and experienced, the more effective it became/becomes, because the incentive/expectation factors from the gift of air/prana whatever increased/es dramatically (seeing/feeling/etc... is believing). I can honestly say that the diversity and effectiveness with which I practice with breath has grown at least a hundred-fold since I started. Now, I am more into cutting back and polishing practices and such. Integrating. ok. Sorry for derail. Movie-Granny wisdom says... Go see the movie. Don't expect to understand it all. But expect it to shake ya somewhere where it just might count. Oh yeah, don't join any new cults for longer than a visit. Ramtha is a trip. ;)-->

Yeah, I think we all became classic anti-seekers while in TWI. ;)--> Which is to answer: Did you guys learn ANYTHING from your cult involvement? Yeah, how NOT to seek, and how to poo poo and naysay quite consistently. btw/fyi - Ramtha and Berkely professors are NOT Jeffrey Dahmer (are they?). peace, geo. I hope you at least find it on the bargain rack. :D-->

geo, yer funny. A classic anti-seeker. A cult of one. I know yer still "lancing," just try not to let the oozing puss of your bad ex-twi experience stain everything else you touch, ok? I can only imagine how you were with things outside of your realm as innie. --> This is a good enlightening film. And yes, it will probably pick up a cult following too. Tolkien wrote some good stories and people named their kids in elvish. Big freaking deal.

woohoo! Showtime has been extended 17 weeks where I am. My employer just saw it and had nothing to say. Cuz he was speechless. "Just see it," was all he could say (with a grin). As far as it being a catalyst for a great spiritual awakening... ....perhaps it is more like a product of an already ongoing awakening. Besides, all spiritual awakenings are destined to come down with a crash, it seems. From day to day to day the everlapping tides of the ages roll in and out, bringing something new in Christ, every time. No, not cultic or occultic. More like yet another anthropological shift in the weather. :)--> Ok, slight derail: This movie reminded me of another product of this, our constant awakening, using another cutting edge medium we take for granted. I posted a link to this game a while back...The Wild Divine Project...and I have finally had a chance to play it a bit. It is amazing, but simple. You basically use things like breath and mental imagery to adjust your heartbeat and the electricity your body produces to do things like: juggle balls, open doors, build bridges, shoot arrows, etc... In the end, practicing the game stimulates plenty of healthy inner "things" (i.e. "devil spirits" to some). Its not easy to play/practice, either. I've sat for a half hour trying to open a single door. Sometimes, the harder you try, the slower you go (like the ole' tortoise and hair race). The game rewards are things like further lessons and teachers who teach you new tricks and techniques to help you through the game. And check out the links and "the science" and "what the experts say" on this one too. A very integrated collaborative project. (But the game is about 200 bucks, so you might have to come to my house to play it. ;)-->) --- This movie and this game are just two of many such more or less embryonic techs of this old/new-east/west weaving. There is another one I am interested in (that has previously only been medical or academic) that allows you to record and observe your own alpha, beta, theta and delta brainwaves. This has some huge potential for the field of meditation. A good way to research the field and check your progress. I remember, when in TWI, we used to fantasize about what would happen if we "spoke in tongues" while hooked up to an EEG. Well, not nearly as much as what happens if a 20-year adept in things like non-dual pellucid dreaming hooks up to a souped-up cutting-edge EEG. Talk about scientific confirmation... --- Anyway, "What the Bleep..." seems like an accomplishment in the integration of many fields worth being excited about. Too bad this and other parts of the world don't seem ready for it yet. Well, at least nothing is ever forgotten forever. Perhaps those people being born today will not be as afraid of new things. peace, love you guys.

Wow. Seems the Enneagram concept was modelled after the Sufi and Kaballa wisdom traditions, both of which are historically deeply effective transformative practices (as opposed to the mere "talking religions" of 3ness). Welcome to Babylon, I guess. ;)--> Thanks again, ckeer. I've been finding a lot of old/new integrations like this lately. Where multi-thousand-year-old practices are being re-discovered by branches of the western cutting edge. Like this one, where an O.T. mysticism arises in modern psychological fields. Both schools are redeemed by the logos, grafted in and excel. Thank God. There may really be hope for all, after all. All lead to Christ, and Christ leads to godliness. Yakity smakity and a blah blah blah... ;)--> :D-->

Another thing... The "levels" as I have described them are not different types of people, or personality types. Though we can be stuck in one or two places along the chain and thus, its seems so. But we are actually all levels at once. Every level is a part of us. We each exist because we are already on all levels at once (knowingly or unknowingly). A healthy state is when we cycle knowingly through the full spectrum on a regular basis. The entire range of spirit can be expressed in a single breath. Kinda like: 1234567654321234567654321234567654321 :)--> This is not to exclude the idea of personality types (even those based on the ennegram framework or that which I have described). But personality types are based on heredity, upbringing, even astrology, all of which are expressions of the carnal self, which are of and in the lower realms. The carnal self does not even exist in the higher realms.

Yeah, similar. 9 types Same source, I guess, though this seems to be looking at purely psychological expressions, mostly. Whereas I include all expressions (inner/outer + individual/collective), including the supernatural to the point where it ceases being extra-special. But this is good stuff. I've taken a few complex personality tests in my day. And I spent a few minutes browsing through this webpage. Thanks for telling me about it, ckeer. I love the diagrams. They communicate sooo much. I'll probably study it til I'm sick of looking at it. ;)--> Ultimately, a perrenial spiritual framework is a neutral and generic thing, which allows for us to "graft in" that which fits, where it fits, why it fits, how it fits. It is all-inclusive and all-connecting. It sees everything as partial and overlapping, rather than wholly right or wrong. The better we get at this, the better we get at it, and more our tree of knowledge grows and bears fruit. I look forward to your comments or questions, ckeer. You seem to have a knack for reasoning outloud. :)-->

Hi, all. Its been about a week on the road for me. Me and a big truck, from Phoenix to Salt Lake City (for a big ballroom art show) and back. Stranger after stranger makes for a real twilight zone experience. And downtown SLC has a real strange vibe, anyway. On the road, I was thinking about the GSC a lot, regarding spiritual things, so I thought I’d post a bit more on this thread in the best ex-way lingo I can muster. As usual, it’s a long, loose ramble, but its not like yer waiting for me to finish or something. Consider it an exercise to help me comb through some thoughts on my writing project. And responses do help. Enjoy ;)--> --- Re: an unfolding of worldviews from a common center… According to the Book of Revelation (which reveals Christ), there are only 7 “spirits” before the throne of God. In other words, everything in creation can be understood in light of these 7 planes/frequencies (of 1ness/singularity, of 2ness/duality, of 3ness/triunity, etc… and so forth to 7ness). Our human form is represented by all 7 of these spirits, which reside in specific places called churches (also commonly called chakras). And each spirit of our overall arch-spirit (our Christness = all 7 elements together) is represented by a distinct state of mind, or worldview. To the depth and degree we “get” this, we can recognize and speak in and interpret these “tongues” (which brings us into our 8ness and 9ness), and even engage in the publication of what may even be considered divine writ (via our 10ness – two hands). Now, these “levels” are not like numbers on a flat surface, or linear rungs on a ladder to the sky. But nesting spheres within spheres within spheres (like in the opening line of Genesis – the dove and the egg). 1ness is within 2ness is within 3ness, etc… But, from within the nesting spheres, progression may appear as a linear chain or string connecting the innermost to the outermost (like a tree growing from the center of a ball). Each view is meant to work with the other views. As our consciousness evolves, we do not destroy our earlier states of mind, but swallow them whole in a greater state of mind, which then is to include them as underling (and thus, fulfill and heal them and make them a part of the whole = salvation). 1ness is the core center at the bottom, which bottom is shared by all other spirits (like where the stem meets all the inner and outer leaves of the flower). As spiritual beings, we unfold from the bottom (this is not a figure of speech). I cannot say enough about being rooted and grounded in love. To see with the “eye of Christ” is to open and align all lenses so we can see through them all at once. If we always look through one lens alone, we will stagnate there. Something clogs the flowing from heaven to earth to heaven again. Sometimes, we get stuck on a few lenses alone, and our mouth will always reveal our spiritual addictions. This is what can make that spirit (our spirit) an “evil” thing in our lives. The evilness of it must be cast out (or rather, combed out like a knot or tangle). What I want to do is draw a brief picture of what each view might look like all alone, as well as what each looks like in a healthy state, in hopes your understanding of spiritual things will benefit. 1) To be trapped in oneness is to be trapped in a state of pain and need and hunger. We see it when a person is primarily egocentric and self-centered. And such extreme selfishness breeds and inbreeds physical illness, which comes from things like eating garbage just to take away emotional pain (which never does). When a culture is trapped in oneness, it is rife with selfish acts, even unto violence and raping and pillaging. Oneness is primarily a masculine force. We see a lot of this in the more barbaric tribal cultures, like in Africa where men think they can rape 10-year old virgins to rid themselves of aids, or a culture that breeds child-molesters (such as the U.S.). “Victory at all costs” is the mantra of those who see only themselves and their interests. The white horse always rides forth to conquer from afar. But a healthy oneness will manifest in physical health. The lamp of Ephesus will simply need less because its needs are efficiently and effectively met. Wise fasting, wholeness that comes from a good diet and exercise, and a selflessness that includes self (just less) are signs that the wick of this lamp is trimmed and its oil is full. A newborn babe’s smile is the best representation of a healthy Ephesus I can think of at the moment. A tree of life is given, though it is a mere seed at this time. Love is the 1st fruit. The symbol is a spiral, like a seed waiting to unwind infinitely. 2) to be trapped in twoness is to be trapped in a state of pleasure or otherness. It’s the dark side of sex-drugs and rock-n-roll. It is the orgy of the religious mob. It is democracy, alone and mindless. It’s the principle of massing-up. When we are addicted to otherness, we seek only the company of friends and like-mindedness, which manifests as cultic behavior (whether led or not led). Twoness is primarily a feminine energy. If a culture or group is focused here, the girls will lead the men with their sexuality, and a lot of unwanted pregnancies will result. Though, because oneness is not the dominant, you won’t see as many young mothers dying, but rather, a lot of unwanted pregnancies and single moms (which leads to the baby sacrifices and such in ancient cultures). As well as a lot of men pairing off over their conquests (at least they are trying to impress, rather than just take what they want). “If it feels good do it” is the mantra of those who are consumed by lust, and they usually can’t get enough. Party-crashers and untouchables are booted out into the street. But a healthy twoness manifests in true friends. And this is epitomized by the one who has the will to befriend anyone they meet. Or the one who could be shut in jail and have a friend, even while alone in the dark. One who can enjoy the company of all people is one whose second lamp is trimmed. A first date or a first kiss represents a healthy twoness. Shaking hands. Clapping hands in applause. Joy is the second fruit. One who can enjoy whatever is there, is one who has fulfilled this stage. The symbol: great Tao (the yin yang) represents this well. A healthy sexuality manifests. 3) to be trapped in threeness is to be trapped in purely systematic thinking. The control freaks. The legalists. The rulemakers. Those who think the pinnacle of truth is justice, law, order and rule. Patriarchal agrarian militants. Fundamental theisms. Addicted to trinity-thinking, like a scale with 2 pans (=3). It seeks only functionality. Like industrialists. When this worldview dominates, it subjects 1 and 2 for “their own good.” It the seat of the kings of the earth, for the 3rd lamp is the highest point one can reach with the carnal mind. Organized violence, such as war (rather than the anarchy of sick 1ness, though, either way, neither 1 nor 3 likes being told what to do by others.). This one likes people to work for just enough to eat for the day (like the orders given to the black horse). It is the king at the top of a pyramid, leading the masses below as easily as a barking dog. Fear! Fear! Fear! 3 is primarily a masculine energy, and when such masculinity is the rule of law, you get 3 strictly-masculine faces on the trinity. This is the spiritual homosexuality that causes the downfall of the carnal world. Pergamos, when ill, is the man-only club. All feminine energy is put below (though it comes from above). “The stock market is the pinnacle of american freedom” or “property rights (i.e. control) is the epitome of freedom” are the mantras. Greed manifests when 3ness is broken and/or alone. 3ness alone is the most easily offended and frightened, it seems. Control control control control….or eeek! But a healthy 3ness is represented by the family. Father (1ness), mother (2ness) and offspring (neutral 3ness, which leads back to father). It is epitomized by a balanced and easy system of control, not just control for desperate control’s sake. The Shire, of Tolkien’s work reminds me of a healthy 3ness. Industrious, but in more in harmony with 1-2 and 4-7. A good judge (like Solomon) really knows what to do when a 2 is wrestling over a 1. The eye at the top of a pyramid represents this well. A good, fair economy for all. Peace is the 3rd fruit. If we seek peace as the controller, we manifest an honest faith. Keep peace when there is peace. Make peace when there is war. The Prince of Peace says so. Do this, and you’ll have your faith. The terrified will not, cannot, understand this. All they can see is the tick-tock of the pendulum (which is the eye of 3ness). 4) to be trapped in 4ness is to be trapped in the cycles of birth and death. Those who see only this cycle will mourn and weep and cry for the circular nature of life. They see injustice well, though lack the solutions. The left versus the right is epitomized by the struggle between 3ness versus 4ness. I would say they are both blind, but they actually see their own worldview quite well (though the fish does not know it is wet). 4ness alone is blindly liberal in their sacrifices, though it does little good alone. They may even foolishly say “everything is equal, and no view is better than any other view, because we are all trapped in the same cycles.” The green flatland. 4ness is primarily a feminine force, and is represented by the arts which express the darknesses of life (quite vividly at times, which, of course, shocks the fundamental 3s and pleasure-seeking 2s, who are mostly blind and/or frightened to the mortal realities which 4 sees so well). But when 4 is alone, it sees only the grim reaper, and often spends its time in ashes with broken shards of clay, lamenting for themselves, mostly (David spent some time here, so did Job – we all do). “Woe is me,” is the mantra of a broken 4. Watches the wheels go round and round and does little but b!tch. But a healthy fourness sees death as the crossroads, not the enemy. It is comfortable with inevitability. It sees the nature of the cycle, and so rejoices at the coming dawn. “Reincarnation” and “astrology” are two subjects closely associated with this, and actually help propel us beyond the fire of it. The clock and the cycles of rebirth and the shape of the cross represent this CROSSroads between 1 and 7. Our 4ness is fulfilled and the pale horse overcome when we understand the nature of eternal life, and that we begin life in a cycle of carnal nature (thus, re-in-carnation). Death is the last enemy that must be destroyed to move beyond the cycle of 1234123412341234, as represented by Ezekial’s vision and the four beasts, etc… Though, this cycle is often seen more like 123212321232123 to the mind stuck in threeness. Or 121212121212121212 to the mind stuck in 2ness. Or 1111 to the mind stuck in 1ness. 4 is the flaming sword that keeps us from eden. It is the four corners of the altar. The four givens. The four inevitables. It is the point between heaven and earth (earth being represented by the lower 3, heaven being represented by the upper 3). It is “the yoga.” It is the divine yoke. Rightfully so, it leads us back to 1 (pain and need) if we do not eat the fruit of longsuffering (which is to actually seek and fulfill pain). Gifts of healing are all about timing. Knowing when and where to plant the seed. Understanding the nature of fate and how very few (if any) choices we have in life are dominant themes in the carnal cycle of the material world. To be able to comprehend and act upon fate and our “lucky stars” (4th day of Genesis, remember?) is to see how small we are in the earth (1 thru 3). 4 is where heaven and earth “get it on” and conceive offspring. Michael (3) and the dragon (5) spin round and round this centerpoint. It is the great “hinge” or axle. The point of conception. There is much healing in this, which is why gifts of healing are the manifestation of eating the fruit of longsuffering. To fulfill this fourth lamp is to “escape” the carnal cycles, which is not an escape, but an acceptance of all that is, which renders us unmoved by the great ping-pong ball machine of life. This is an “escape” without ever really leaving anything (which is the only escape there really is). From here on “out” (5-7) things become more difficult to explain well. And by this, I mean, enter at your own risk. If you’ll notice, that there is woe associated with the 5th and latter spirits. This is because the heavenly realm is NOT bliss. It is not free of pain. It is not free of trouble. Those who flee such things and seek only 1,2,3 or 4 will hide in caves of dogma, or howl even louder at the thought. Thus, hell is found in heaven, like a lake of fire. But those who can deal with this, will find a baptism of fire. For you, the sun moon and stars will change (for they are not what they seem). For you, the walls that hide the great mysteries of God will come crashing down, (thus, Babylon is really a wonderful place to feast once the “walls” come down.). In the end, Christ prefers neither heaven nor hell. Alone and/or unfulfilled, each spiritual plane is a place of hell and torment. If we want to “serve God,” we should be able to dwell in each with courage and fearlessness. Touching lepers, ya know? Preferring neither heaven nor hell, willing to enter the deepest of deeps for the sake of all. Here is where our divine black and white world begins to obliterate into a radiant spectrum of light. The complexity increases a bit. 5) to be trapped in fiveness is to be trapped in a paranormal experience. Or, when a person learns some metaphysical trick and gets addicted to it. If the “knees are weak” (1 thru 4 are unhealthy and unprepared), this person may get greedy and use their one little trick to control, or seek pleasure, or serve just themselves, or even try to bitterly fulfill the cycle of fourness. This is sorcery. This is witchcraft. And scientists and businessmen and Christians and Buddhists and Islamics and Jews practice sorcery. If 2 is cultic, and 3 is the king of the cult, 5 is OCcultic. If 3 is physics, 5 is metaphysics. Oddly enough, this realm of 5ness is also the rational mind. 5 is the randomizer. The theorist (3) at work (5). It is the great experimental mind. 3ness is heir to 5ness’s experiments. Evolution reaches out and tries something new, always. 5 is what moves the cutting edge along. It is bold and naked and willing to scrap everything mortal for spiritual experience. Thus, the serpent, the dragon, the pentagram. Willing and able to get those mortal kids in eden to die so they could spiritually evolve. Nice trick. And so when someone whose lower self is not healthy tries to dabble in sorcery/paranormal (like VPW kinda did), they get bit and poisoned. Because they are messing with higher spiritual realities while still stuck in the cycle of the 4 creatures/horses. Agony, ecstasy, control and fear subvert the ability to minister. A culture that will experiment on its own people (like the drug industry, or FDA, or many other such R&D tycoons) epitomizes the 5ness alone. Cruel animal experiments are probably the bottom of the bucket (considering the 5th day’s association with animals). 5ness alone, especially without compassion (from 4) is a cold nasty creature. “Humans are worth more than animals,” they might say. The dark side of communism and/or socialism reminds me of fallen 5ness. An experiment in uber-rationale society (to the point of certain kinds of oblivion.) Like I said, its always Michael (3ness, like blindly patriotic USA) and the dragon (5ness) fighting over the girl’s egg (4ness). But a healthy 5ness experiments with compassion, first. To the depth and degree you practice and experiment random acts of kindness (especially among strangers and enemies), the 5 gift ministries will blossom like fireworks. Workings of miracles will abound. Strange and sudden results will blow your mind. Because your 4ness is healthy, most of all. A healthy 1 strengthens 2. A healthy 2 strengthens 3. A healthy 3 strengthens 4. Etc… We practice a diversity of gentleness (5th fruit), we are flexible and easy and adaptable to the vast diversity of miraculous encounters in life. We can literally feel subtle shifts in the air, in people’s eyes, in a rock or a tree. Especially if 4 is healthy (that thread I posted on the sending/receiving technique is like a wind on your embers in this matter. Take it to the street, and you’ll see what I mean). A five-pointed star represents 5ness better than anything I know. It’s a solid square of a 4 with a wild thing of a point to keep you on your toes. 6) To be trapped in 6ness in to be trapped in your own subtle mental realm. It what happens if our 3rd eye opens, and so we can see spiritual things (whereas 5ness has more of a feeling nature), but if 6 is alone, we are haunted by our own visions. There is little understanding of them. If our ability to rationally explore them (via healthy 5ness) is diminished, we may believe our own vision (though we do not understand it). Perhaps VP and LCM saw a few cool and groovy things, but if their compassion and rational thinking was diminished, they would worship their own visualizations like an idol. An unhealthy 6 is why men fall on their face when they have angelic encounters. False prophets are often those who see something once and spend the rest of their lives promoting it. They peak or spike in spiritual experience and vision, but never plateau (due to lack of stability, which is gained by a healthy 4ness). The vision or dream is quite real, but they “blow it” by applying it wrongly all their lives. An example of a society addicted on 6ness is a religion that gets legit visions and does not understand them. Perhaps they lack the heart to do anything healing with them. Or they lack the experience to see how it applies. They might even hole up somewhere and stimulate their 3rd eye and just watch this spiritual TV all the time, and think they are actually in the show. Happens all over the world, in every age. But a healthy 6ness (which means it is in harmony with and strengthened by other spiritual planes) sees things and does not “wig out.” A prophet sees the big clock and little clock (as opposed to the middle clock of the carnal mind). A prophet sees the trends and bigger cycles. A prophet sees the patterns and trajectories that cause miracles (which is why 5ness strengthens 6ness – cuz if you have a habit/plateau of stimulating miraculous encounter via gentleness, you will have enough subtle experiences to see to predict the patterns in the nature of creation in the first place.). To see such spiritual things, is not to see a static reality, but to see the animate and reactionary nature of things. To see how things can always work out for goodness (6th fruit), regardless how they look now. To see trajectories. Like a spiritual weatherman. Predictions, but not guarantees. Predictions based on “if things continue…”. To truly see why everything happens for a reason. It just math, mostly. And it is also to see ahead to 7, the finish line. A star of David represents 6ness better than anything I know. 6 lines used to make 2 overlapping triangles (masc. and fem), which makes a 7th space. 7) to be trapped in 7ness is to have a messiah complex. You see the full spectrum of being within yourself, and you think you are the only one who has it. Or, when one has climbed this high, they think this is where you are supposed to stop, like you have attained the pinnacle. You see all and are all. But just because you can finally say, “I AM,” does not mean you have done anything at all. Because to reach this point IS to be born again. Its now that the great work begins. Everything up til now was gestation and development in the womb of the holy spirit. In other words, if you reach this stage and think you have “finally arrived,” you are right, but all you have really arrived at is the tit. So smile baby, you have nothing to brag about. This is where a new Jerusalem comes down from heaven. But momma dove still has a lot of comforting to do. This is a healthy 7ness. There is not much to it. The spectrum is always faithful, in light and sound. It is the alpha to omega of our Christness. When the 7th seal breaks in our lives, there is just a period of silence as we admire it. Nothing more, nothing less. And so its time to grow up. The Caduceus is a good representation of 7ness and Christ. The brass serpent lifted in the wilderness for healing and wholeness. 8) to be trapped in 8ness is to be stuck in the great conversation. Talking talking talking about things, just for the sake of talking. But, if we are healthy in sevenness, we actually have something to talk about. We can communicate of and along the spiritual planes, regardless of race, religion, creed, etc. This requires a meekness, or a flexibility to whomever we are talking to. I do it in sales all the time. We change ourselves for the sake of other, and we can talk, because the other may not always do it, or know to do it. Pentecost reminds me of this. What was new was that the apostles could finally do it (the spirit has been there from the beginning). And it took “some guy” to demonstrate the full spectrum to get them talking (after a 9-day mediation period, of course). 9) to be trapped in 9 is to be trapped in integration and interpretation of all these things. To systematically systematize everything. Can be very confusing. A one-way mouthpiece, so to speak. Constant interpreting of every sign, miracle, wonder and healing that comes along. This means that which means this which means that, on and on and on. But if we are healthy in 9ness, we know when and where to interpret. Which is why temperance is the 9th fruit. If we can truly interpret the spiritual planes of life, we must control ourselves, discipline ourselves. Consider carefully all things. I can only hope this thread has done this (interpreting tongues) for some of you. It was hard work. I am holding back as much as I can. I intentionally try NOT to get too concrete, and this is to keep what I write from being taken too seriously. Sounds funny, but it is important to me. In other words, I am not gonna try to make bread from stone. I purposely keep it all a bit fluid (though I am working on a more synthesized version – see #10.) 10) to be trapped in 10ness is to be trapped in some penultimate set of laws. Its like worshipping the works of our hands (5+5). All we can see is 10 10 10 10 10, with little understanding of why there are 10 in the first place (because it’s the easiest number for us dopes to remember, I suppose). But a healthy 10ness is the ability to publish spiritual truths in lasting concretion. To provide a simple neutral framework that can be remembered by any child, simply because he can count them off on his fingers (like two tablets of stone). Kids never forget that thing that thrilled them, even into their elder years. ;)--> Heerz a quick summation. I’ll quickly pick one word each. 1) Our need 2) Our want 3) Our control 4) Our union 5) Our diversity 6) Our calculator 7) Our true name 8) Our conversations 9) Our explanations 10) Our frameworking Of course, numbers go on forever, and there are important numbers like 12 and 24 (which are just extensions of 3ness and 4ness), but I already did enough damage here, it seems. Anyway, Thanks all, for just being. I’m gonna go shave my head or something. :D--> Peace, Todd p.s. I just realized I never mentioned 0. What an idiot. Maybe some other day. Cuz zero is huge (or anti-huge). ;)-->

Thumbs up on this one. Though I haven't seen it yet, I'm familiar with and recognize its processes. It has come up in more than one circle I frequent. I am still hunting for a showing, myself. :)--> For those interested, be sure to browse around the home page a bit. Check out things like the scientists involved, the DC studies, the links page and such. Good stuff. And there is soooo much like it going on. Where new-tech and old-tech play very well together. :D--> The matrix has you, America, And the veil is lifting, more quickly than before. Blood, fire and vapour of smoke...oh my! ;)-->

"...of the spirit (but) not (of) ourselves..." Only if we are disconnected from God and Christ and Spirit. peace

:)--> "I wish I desired..." is a rare prayer, my friend. To come to this point of wanting to want something (rather than just wanting alone) is a sign of real things happening in one's heart, imo. Mostly ourselves, too, because our unchecked hates only diminish our own virtues (like Peter lacking longsuffering for that soldier and thinking he needed to defend "his" Jesus). Which is another good reason to cultivate longsuffering -- to increase our capacity to suffer, to be able to become more fluidic bearers of pain (ours and others) rather than hardened resisters. It will not change much of the world, but it will change us so that we will be able to bear more of it. Longsuffering enables us for the sake of others. It puts us in touch with the cyclic nature of life and healing, by carrying us through to the other end of "winter." In this alone, there are sooo many gifts. sky4it, I wish I could hang out more. My email is always open. Todd

Hello, sky4it. Nice lead off. :)--> Heerz my 2 cents worth (in my best ex-PFAL vernacular)... Longsuffering is a spiritual activity in the garden of God, which is to say, the garden of our lives. Just as fruit is the activity of any garden's life. It is to the depth and degree we eat of this fruit of the tree of life that we will be nourished by it. It is to the depth and degree we understand this fruit that we can cultivate it. It is to the depth and degree we cultivate/practice/sow this fruit in our body/soul/spirit that we will reap the spiritual fruit, which energizes and quickens the fruit in both mind and body. But, to the depth and degree we avoid this nourishment and/or cultivation, we will suffer in that capacity. Because to NOT practice longsuffering, is to lack a vital spiritual nutrient, which leaves a hole in our wholeness like a shadow across our spirit. To the depth and degree we do not nourish ourselves with longsuffering, we are running from the crossroads between heaven and earth, and back towards the cycles of hell and death. To the depth and degree we do not cultivate and practice longsuffering, gifts of healing will not manifest themselves. Because there is no patience or experience of the seasonalities of all of our lives. We have planted nothing. We are not rooted and grounded in love. We cannot discern the sky or the times. We become spiritually cold and numb. And if we are not rooted in love as the first thing done, what lasting thing could ever grow from us? --- So what is longsuffering, exactly? I think you said it plain, E, with "to feel the suffering of others." But also, not to forget to feel the suffering of ourselves (if we really wanna believe we are all one in Christ and God). And if longsuffering (or any action) is to be considered "of Christ," it has got to be universal (Christ is king of everything, right?), which includes longsuffering for our worst of enemies. Or we lie, and have not Christ, really. Its enough to make grown men cry. (or continue to lie and lie and lie and lie) Peace, Todd

Oakspear, For the benefit of us ex-way, I did a quick search and came up with some links to a few of "Judeo/Christianity's" more adventurous schools of thought. Jewish Roots of Eastern Christian Mysticism Christian Mysticism Christian Mysticism Book List Resources for Gnosticism and Nag Hammadi Contemplative Outreach Ltd. The Essenes Hermetic Kabbalah Kabbalah Christian Counterpoint Forum I am sure the topic of salvation (or the equiv.) is covered somewhere in each. Enjoy.

:)--> Ok. I'll go line by line with ya, I guess. I hope you don't mind me throwing out all this "lambano." ;)--> Mike, I am surprised how generically and modernly Christian you suddenly sound. ;)--> After all, heresy is in choosing who the "best" baptizers are (especially when you are choosing from such a small pool of choices in the first place ). I'm glad I wasn't the one who baptized ya. No, not an anti-Biblical stance, at all. Not even a non-Biblical stance. The Christ of the Bible has become the cornerstone for all my building. All of it. And so I am not afraid of any book in the world. Why should I be? Christ is the shape of the universe. Abraham is the father of many religions. The apostles have taught and been teaching all over the world for 2000 years. For me, the Bible confirms truths from all ages and all corners of the world. But you'll never see it if you never take your candle into the darkness and look for yourself. The Bible is such an old set of books, anyway. Especially the OT. And sooo censored, even from a strictly Jewish standpoint. Tattered fragments, right? ;)--> I believe so, too. But I like musty old, beat-up books. Question is, is this old scripture of Christ your cornerstone for building, or a stone all alone (for tripping over)? This is a very important question, according to "The Word." Yes. But the OT is a partial record of man's experience with God and spirituallity? Incomplete. Contrary. Carnal. Somewhat desperate. Heck, the whole Mosaic law is a grand parable, of sorts, devised by folks with an enormous sense of vision beyond their own age. It was focused mostly on one ethnological lineage's partial spiritual discoveries, in preparation for a more universal demonstration of true love and what it means to be connected to the divine. No? Besides, if we are ignorant of our eternal connection with God, can we say or write anything about it? Can we even think about it? Doesn't mean the connection is not there. Just means we are dead asleep to it. And we may die in this darkness. What we write and do may even sound like we are bemoaning our disconnect. Then someone comes along later and reads it and says "Aha! They were disconnected from God!" Shouldn't we always consider the spiritual (or non) perspective of the writers before jumping to conclusions about whether the spirit was in them or on them or no where in sight when they wrote what they wrote? Moses was so spirituallity charged and alive, that he radiated it outwardly. His countenance was oftentimes dramatic, which even moved and stirred physical energy. Anyone near him could not not be affected. And those who were most attuned to him were even more spiritually stimulated and stirred. Spiritual "giants" in any all wisdom traditions do such things (but use different names/words to explain them). The ability to transfer positive energy physically, emotionally, mentally, etc... is a big part of how the spirit manifests. Including the sharing of abilities and ministries and such. How else does one touch another and heal them, save for the rearranging of physical matter (which is all energy)? How many times you read about a prophet glowing with light and halos and transfigurations? How many other books have you read that describe their prophets doing the same thing, and achieving similar results in another language? You attempt to "rightly divide" any other books? What if they, too, "fit like a hand in a glove?" Jesus was still the Christ of God. He died for us all. He demonstrated the trinity of power, love and wisdom like no other. By demonstrating love, mostly. By showing how connected we are if we only stop being so darn religious/carnal/strictly patriarchal about everything. He demonstrated true divine love in action, more so than any other in history. And he knew the impact it would have. Does this discount the wisdom of the Solomons, of the Buddhas, of the Krishnas, and of all the Kings of the East (who were not Jews but knew more spiritually)?Pentecost was new to the apostles, supercharged with the teachings and experiences and spiritual energy Jesus had plenty of. In fact, "Pentecost" was quite new to the west, period. A new age had just come. Peter saw it, because a new darkness fell (not a new light). "The population?!?" Oh, you mean, mankind? All made in the image of God, just like Christ? ;)--> yeah. We all forgot we forgot I forgot they forgot. That's what happens when a tree of knowing things is messed with, right? But do you think Eden is some actual place on earth with a tree of life and a flaming sword? I don't think the Eden story is understood very well, and so the corresponding "fix" can't be either. That flaming sword preserves our spiritual nature, regardles of our state of mind. If our habit is to flee mortal pain, we will not understand this (hence, the flames). Besides, didn't Paul wrote that the carnal seed must die before it becomes spiritual? Adam was supposed to die. If he hadn't died and fallen to a state of false shame and ignorance and enmity, Christ would never have been lifted up in the wilderness. Man, as a spiritual being, would never experience and understand his full range of being, through birth and death and spiritual rebirth. Wise as serpents, harmless as doves. ;)--> I dunno. Bottom line, Mike. Overall, I think our spiritual fears of darkness drive us a lot farther away in our spiritual understanding than we think. The risk factor/enemy factor is a big part of "the lie." When we are more concerned with simply knowing what is good and what is evil (trapped in a circular struggle of duality) than getting our hands dirty at all with any sort of tangible practice or method. We must reach beyond redundantly expressing our self-rightness to each other (when we've never really "walked outside" far enough to sit down yet). But the good news is that we are also always a lot closer to our divine nature than we think. Our very form IS in the image of God, who in the image of Christ. But we are born trapped outside of ourselves. Whether we think out spiritual nature enters us later, or was already there from the beginning, it is still a gift, an anointing, a new conception (check the greek), and our salvation, nonetheless. But how deep we can go with is limited to how long we think its been inside of us. We've ignorantly been spiritual beings all our life. There is a lot of healing in this. peace

Complexity is the curse of me, I suppose. But I am practicing being more precise. :)--> A little more re: Salvation... Biblically and otherwise, I think the only way we have ever been (or can ever be) "without spirit" is in our understanding and misunderstanding of our experiences with spirit. All it takes is to be UNaware of the grace of life itself, and our conscious will indeed be "dead in trespasses and sins" until that changes. If our conscious is dead/asleep to spirit, would it even matter to us if the holy spirit completely surrounded us and filled our lungs and veins? No, we would probably still suffer all the way to the grave and beyond. Ignorance alone IS enough to cause darkness overpower us, completely. Ignorance of the "nature and cause" of darkness. Because darkness is not really something that exists anyway, and so in reality, it has no power. It never has. Except that which we ignorantly give it when we label it things like "devil" and "satan" and "hell." This is our primary illusion from the cradle. As long as we are at enmity with "death" and "hell," we have not yet been "saved" from darkness at all. And so I would consider this darknened state to be a sign of some significance. Because if we truly were delivered from darkness, how can it still be the enemy of our mind and heart? In the end, all there is is light. Its all there ever was. From the beginning. And it is illumination, not magic power, that dispels the darkness. Heck, we can even forgive each other's sins, just like God. Rule #2, "to love your neighbor/enemy as yourself" must include your own "personal adversary," no? I think too many people are looking up at the sky for the love of God to come down and save us, when neither Christ nor the devil are waiting in the darkness of outer space. Christ is always here and now. Salvation is always here and now. This is one reason why no one can know the day or time heez "coming back." Because its up to each of us, in our own time, to give a full birth to our own Christ-nature (and only God knows when that is going to happen, right? Cuz we sure don't).;)--> Otherwise, this view of Jesus (or any other extra-terrestrial style messiah) is just another scapegoat/sacrifice for our sins, and we and the world will never change. And so "the devil" reigns on and on and on. And we continue to justify our hate/loathe/despise for our "enemies." And we seek mostly comfort and pleasure and safety. No one will even want to believe that we can strive to the perfecting of our truest selves ("cuz Jesus was the only perfect one"). SSDD peace When it comes to saving ourselves, "think globablly, act locally," as they say.

Hi, Mike. um...huh? What poetry? I think 90% of what I wrote (on this thread, at least) is precise and clear, though still quite general (and all I ever have the time to write at the GSC is synopsis, it seems). Like this, about plateaus versus spikes in spiritual experience and practice of our salvation: What exactly is it about this that is too poetic to understand? --> Besides, when I do "do it," I use figures of speech, not poetry. ;)--> :D--> :P--> Honestly. After all, the majority of scripture (including almost all of what Jesus said) is "poetry." And there are many, very good reasons for this, right? In my life, I have seen varying depths of application of figurative language. I'll try to put it in the familar linear triune model: 1) We more-or-less unconsciously rattle off poetry in basic language as we feel and need to express things (body). 2) We can craft poetic language to express double meaning, such as song and literature and fiction to stimulate the heart and mind (soul and collective soul). 3) We can also think and communicate in "para-bolic" terms to deliberately instruct and inform and stimulate higher/quicker processes (spirit-mindedness) alongside the lower/slower processes, for the purpose of "lifting ourselves and our brothers." In this case, the writer is conscious of what they are doing, and it works best if the reader is too. This more mindfully parallel mode of language elevates and expands our higher and lower natures by way of vertical and horizontal connections of meanings. A good example of this 3rd level of "poetry" is how so many of the world's great scriptures were written in "sacred" languages. By "sacred language," I mean, NOT a mostly spontaeneously evolved language, but the result of a multi-generational project where a cultural school of wisdom actually weaves a very intricate language with the purpose of expressing and preserving overlapping layers of meaning and knowledge (and not just 2 layers) in a collection of writings. --- Howz this?: Is the term "fruit of the spirit" poetic or literal? To me, its both, but ultimately literal. Why literal? Because, like I've said before, its not that spirit resembles physical fruit, but that physical fruit resembles spirit (for its shape comes from the spiritual realities). Spirit is the originator of the laws of "fruitness," if you will. And so figurative language can also become a lense of literal truth, when (and if) the meanings are followed "all the way home." --- Mike, I think that if you believed bigger for yourself in this regard (poetry), you would benefit greatly in your spirituallity. Get clear and concerned about it, ya know? I'm not kidding. :)--> And, if you ever really want me to clarify something I wrote, just ask. Or read more slowly (if yer really even interested). Ya know, I just can't help but think that you often refer to what I write as "merely poetic" to somehow diminish it. Because you don't seem to try otherwise. Not that big of a deal. Just an observation, mostly. I'm glad you came back to this topic. um...salvation? (Sorry Oak) :P-->

Good points, CW. (& chuckles for the disclaimer) ;)--> I see more and more how most religion fails to appreciate the vast diversity of spiritual practice in Jesus’s life, not only from the ancient semitic cultures, but from the others surrounding them (especailly considering how the centuries around year 0 were a real cosmopolitan cusp of the ages). And I’m not just talking about a diversity of orientalisms and idioms and other things we can only read about, but a diversity of actual intense spiritual disciplines and arts (most of which were already old by the time Jesus got around to them). This idea that Jesus was somehow always a perfectly and strictly Jewish/Mosiac O.T. practitioner (whatever that means) limits how much we can understand about the significances of his life. And TWI’s more-or-less armchair excitement and bravado over mere interpretative things like idioms and orientalisms seems hollow compared to the actual nutritious value of what I’m still only beginning to find in the “nitty gritty” world of practice. Words can and do fail...and oftentimes miserably. One of the biggest differences I see between what Jesus manifested and what his apostles manifested is how Jesus was pretty much born practicing, where his apostles didn’t even know how to get serious about practice until they were taught in their adulthood. --- RE: manifestations… I hear ya, Wayfernot. Sometimes its hard to think of those infamous nine phrases without some ole’ PFAL explanation or chart poking at yer head like a “buzzkill.” ;)--> Thank God I think I’ve finally reached a point where I can read the kjv (or anything else, for that matter) without seeing PFAL definitions/warnings like internet pop-up ads. So I do still think of “spiritual manifestation” in kjv Corinthian terms like “SIT, interpretation, prophecy,” etc…, but in a freer and more universal nature. To me, their meanings rely on a visually animate framework of relationships of form and function, rather than just some explanation paragraph on a page or commentary. And the fruits and manifestations in this framework apply in such a wide range of possibility--from a single moment in time between lovers, to the cresting of an entire age of mankind. Makes them harder to explain. Ultimately, it seems, all of life and creation is continually this manifestation of spirit. Its just never not. But we’re mostly oblivious to it in all its various happenings and sub-happenings. Mostly, because we’ve not been taught in our day and culture how (or why) to sit still and/or wake up long enough to notice the subtler distinctions and interactions of things. So much remains trapped in books (i.e. we cannot get them out of the books and into our lives as much as we'd like to). For me, “how spirit manifests,” or “how the mannies work” has become replaced by “how life works.” When and how and where the spirit is NOT manifest, there are empty holes where nourishment/fruit is needed. And as the holes are filled, we experience wholeness/salvation “to the depth and degree...” And “against such, there is no law.” ;)--> Sorry, I know its not very specific. I’m kinda short on time. Huge subject, anyway. Hey, WN! I just realized, you and I were once fellow ‘goners, and now we’re fellow ‘zoners. :)--> Peace, Todd

I'm glad you guys read and enjoyed. I thought this thread was lost for good. So I thought I'd copy some corresponding thoughts from another thread (~clik here~): "Being saved" has changed a lot for me since PFAL. It has become more of an unfolding of layers of worldviews from a common center. And this unfolding is a heightening, broadening, lengthening, deepening experience. Quadralateral growth, if you will. Our tree has many branches. If we want Christ to be born from within us, we must devote our lives to being born again. No, not just for our own sake, but for that of the world. Faith without works is lifeless, yada yada... We already experience things during our own spiritual unfoldment before our rational mind even catches up and understands what is happening. And our spiritual state can spike, which is often confusing and more spasmodic, even causing certain levels of drunkeness and desperation (like TWI and the ilk). (But the fish still does not know he is wet. Just as the babe in the womb does not know he is not yet born. And until we are born, all the direct "air" is out of reach, "trapped" beyond a luminous veil.) And there are practices that elevate us to spiritual plateaus, which bring a continuity to our experience of peace and liberation. We begin to see that all the signs that we need to guide us in life are already in front of us, as always. We can become rationally spiritual, and not just religious, and not just rationally non-religious. Our actions and heart change, often in leaps, compared to the usual crawl. Spiritual experience and practice are vital to climbing from plateau to plateau to any point of fulfillment. How spiritually afraid of the dark we are determines how much we learn and unfold in our own wisdom of our salvation. So with trust and love, we enter the deep with our candles held high. No, not to vanquish foes, but to see and learn. To the depth and degree we learn and practice love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, etc..., we will experience an unfolding of the corresponding spiritual manifestations. The sciences and understanding of dreams, visions, signs, prophecies, times, and healings and such are exercised and increase. Promoting further practice love, joy, peace, etc... "Now" becomes good enough for all good things. Love, joy, peace, etc... always, regardless. And that is some kind of salvation, imo. If ever I meet someone like this (and there are people in this state of mind), I would be a fool not to consider them saved from something, or re-born in some sense of the word. For now, I will be content with a grin in the womb. --- btw - anyone interested in names of groups and links and books and practices and such I've mentioned can email me, I guess. It would take me months to compile any sort of comprehensive list of resources. Besides, so much depends on where we are in life, what we've already learned and experienced, etc... peace, Todd --- For the benefit of us ex-way, I did a quick search and came up with some links to a few of "Judeo/Christianity's" more adventurous schools of thought. Contemplative Outreach Ltd. The Spiritual Eldering Institute The Essenes Resources for Gnosticism and Nag Hammadi Jewish Roots of Eastern Christian Mysticism Christian Mysticism Christian Mysticism Book List Kabbalah FAQ Hermetic Kabbalah Kabbalah Christian Counterpoint Forum Enjoy

I dunno, Oak. If chomping is the accepted flow around here, who would want to list such precious resources? But at the same time, who would not want to share them, considering how someone might benefit? Personally, I have not moved on to another group or church since TWI. The whole world of churches has become my church. And so I try not to .... in the mainstream. :P--> --- "Being saved" has changed a lot for me since PFAL. It has become more of an unfolding of layers of worldviews from a common center. And this unfolding is a heightening, broadening, lengthening, deepening experience. Quadralateral growth, if you will. Our tree has many branches. If we want Christ to be born from within us, we must devote our lives to being born again. No, not just for our own sake, but for that of the world. Faith without works is lifeless, yada yada... We already experience things during our own spiritual unfoldment before our rational mind even catches up and understands what is happening. And our spiritual state can spike, which is often confusing and more spasmodic, even causing certain levels of drunkeness and desperation (like TWI and the ilk). (But the fish still does not know he is wet. Just as the babe in the womb does not know he is not yet born. And until we are born, all the direct "air" is out of reach, "trapped" beyond a luminous veil.) And there are practices that elevate us to spiritual plateaus, which bring a continuity to our experience of peace and liberation. We begin to see that all the signs that we need to guide us in life are already in front of us, as always. We can become rationally spiritual, and not just religious, and not just rationally non-religious. Our actions and heart change, often in leaps, compared to the usual crawl. Spiritual experience and practice are vital to climbing from plateau to plateau to any point of fulfillment. How spiritually afraid of the dark we are determines how much we learn and unfold in our own wisdom of our salvation. So with trust and love, we enter the deep with our candles held high. No, not to vanquish foes, but to see and learn. To the depth and degree we learn and practice love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, etc..., we will experience an unfolding of the corresponding spiritual manifestations. The sciences and understanding of dreams, visions, signs, prophecies, times, and healings and such are exercised and increase. Promoting further practice love, joy, peace, etc... "Now" becomes good enough for all good things. Love, joy, peace, etc... always, regardless. And that is some kind of salvation, imo. If ever I meet someone like this (and there are people in this state of mind), I would be a fool not to consider them saved from something, or re-born in some sense of the word. For now, I will be content with a grin in the womb. ;)--> --- btw - anyone interested in names of groups and links and books and practices and such I've mentioned can email me, I guess. It would take me months to compile any sort of comprehensive list of resources. Besides, so much depends on where we are in life, what we've already learned and experienced, etc... peace, Todd

Again, I'm sorry. Sometimes my timing sucks. peace

Dontfencemein, I am sorry. By queen of pain, I only meant that my hope is for you to reach a place of healing where your pains are no longer above you looking down. I believe and have seen where there is such a place, especially for women (who already understand pain without some man to teach them). But you know where you are with it better than anyone. So, ultimately, I say "let it rip," if you have to. You ladies have legitimate complaints, so roar and howl and grieve, if you need to. I don't really think women complain because they like to. They have to. Their complaints always have a reason, even if a man won't take the time to figure out what it really is (and it aint really about LLPF, this time, IMO). I can't say enough about a woman's natural wisdom, I guess. What a beautiful mystery it is. Hell hath no fury...thank God! Mothers of us all. ;)--> And its not just about what VP did with the wayfers, either. Our pains are not new to the face of the earth, nor are the remedies. TWI did not have some special formula for MOG abuse. It was pretty standard, it seems. And its pandemic. Multi-religional, even. And I do not promote "lining anything up with the Word," per se. But I do believe that that book has priceless lessons about loving and living life and dealing with pain, even though they are made to look foolish by mogs and/or mobs who use the name of Jesus to justify more O.T.-like behaviour towards each other. We got a new deal, remember? btw - I have no disciples. No PTs going on. Very little correspondance with GSCers. This is just a message forum. We write and post our thoughts to contribute however we can. Sure, we make all kinds of connections with people, some of them deep, but in the end, we are all teachers and students of each other. I hate to think of where I would be right now if I hadn't stumbled across this place. Its better to light a candle than curse the darkness, I suppose. But I'll back off this thread. Maybe it'll pick up where it left off. Maybe it won't. peace, Todd

Thanks for joining in, Linda Z. And I agree regarding "real freedom." (Gawd! How so many good words have been dragged thru the mud) "Why did the good Samaritan cross the road?" LOL, dmiller! I hope you can come up with a good punchline for that one.:)--> Hey, if a guy is broken and bloody in a ditch, you gonna wait till he confesses his sins before you even try and help? Besides, wouldn't being a "Pharisee" (another overused ex-way buzzword) equal being stuck in a ditch, anyway? You gonna choose which kinds of ditches are worth helping people out of, and which ones are not? peace