sirguessalot

the disposable adam... lol! and so, the disposable jesus, too. I mean, did it really matter to him if he was killed? - the first adam, mortally afraid of death. - the second adam, not. and pretty much to the point of insult to the first atom. :)-->

thank you, Danny. I think you nailed it/me pretty good. sorry for the offense, laleo. I was kinda shouting from the heart on the "why not" matter. It was an unclear mix of general and specific. I hope I can redeem myself here. I did think of putting an asterisk or some such thing next to each utterance of "*Christian," referring back to the top of my post (which perhaps I should have clarified even more). Or craft a paranthetical statement to repeat each time the C-word is invoked. But I thought it would confuse things. doh! How can one simply point to field of flowers and hope to seperate the pansies from the daisies? By describing what daisies look like, I guess. * = accidental/unconsciously Christian, based more on mere group-affiliation, or an inherited civic religion and modern myth than an actual initiation of individual/group practice/discipline of Christ-like living (when and where this is the case). I also thought of posting on the "why Christianity thread" to support the "Christianities" that bear good fruit in this very same land (and others). I still might, if I get a chance. I don't name denominations either way, because every denomination has got to have consciously Christlike people in it somewhere. Some more, some less, I'm sure, as in all diverse things. There are Christian congregations and movements who have come together with an amazing depth of harmony and love and selfless giving. Some of you may be a part of or have found such a place or group. Great. Fruit is fruit = nourishment, against such there is no law or rule or distinction of names or languages to reasonly contradict or deny its presence. if its there, its there. If its not, its not. I think most all Christians on this board do not even fit the *Christianity I speak of. We learned some hard lessons from TWI, which may be somewhat of a gift. Most here who approach Christianity again do so with more care and precision than before, which yields better results. Or even, with more recklessness, perhaps, if it was the overly anal nature of twi that burnt them in the first place. --- From what I see and experience, is the term "Christianity" itself has been and is being abused by the majority, not just a few rotten eggs in a few churches. But this is old news. Example: a genocide against the natives here was not carried out by a few rotten eggs in *Christianity. Nor were all Christians for it. But those who shoot, shoot, and those who don't, can do little about the shooters anyway (Cain versus Abel). In other words, those who use force will always win via force against those who do not use equal force. All perceptions of righteousness aside. And imo, "abuse" is not some morally chosen sinful behaviour worth condemning. Condemnation comes all on its own, anyway (like Jesus said). In the form of illness, depression, poverty, etc... Especially in women, children, the elderly and animals and the environment (air, water, soil, flora, etc..). So, by "sickningly" I mean just that. Pathological and chronic to the point of reeking. There are true and measurable reasons for it, but none worthy of shame and blame towards the ill. Perhaps some shame towards the ministers. But not even much there. I mean, if there is pride being celebrated, then there is pride being celebrated, no? If a lot of people are sick and unhealthy and depressed in our *Christian society, what is there to brag about? I have a half dozen *Christians in my life whose lives are falling apart even as they naturally cling to the dogma that may have gotten them there in the first place. I have a feeling this trend hasn't matured yet. Of course, some *Christians say this trend IS because society is turning away from *Christianity. And so *they blame the ill non-*Christian for being suckered by the devil, and pardon the ill *Christian for being in the devil's crosshairs. Sound familiar? I hear it all the time now. Its almost like VPs style of uber-self-serving hyper-Christianity has indeed infected an already struggling civic religion (again, not all people or groups are effected, though they may be outnumbered and not even know it.). W.O.W. and all. If all kinds of anti-Christ selfish behaviour (i.e. opposite of the fruit of the spirit) is being justified because of the blood of the cross, it is being justified. "Jesus suffered so we don't have to" is not the unique idea of some cult. And there is no mystical formula required to see or measure these things. Just talking to people and listening to their wants and needs will reveal all kinds of things. Do they brag about how exceptionally good God is too them above all others, based solely on affiliation and or the "invoking of the magic messianic name?" I think there are some good ole fashioned spiritual folks who claim Christianity. But let us say that 10% or 20% of Christianity are consciously and independently trying to follow Christ's teachings on living. That may seem like a small number, but if you do the math...its not. And perhaps its a larger or smaller number. Whatever. Its not the majority. And its not in any single denom or sect. Fruit is fruit is fruit is fruit. It heals. Most *Christians I talk to in my travels and relationships are mostly unfamiliar with their own holy scripture. Most of them. This is alarming. I am not talking about research stuff, or dogmatic stuff, but the basic lessons of gospels (like the beautitudes) and such any kid can pick up. And yet, they claim a moral superiority based mostly on their affiliations and membership. Its almost like a high for them, and they want you emotionally involved with it and them or they quickly reject you as somehow "lost" or "evil." Sometimes I think we don't realize how much things have changed in *Christianity in so little time (i.e. a few decades). Sometimes I think we don't realize how much the world has changed in just as recently, in technological capability, integration of information, the collective mindsets, or in human evolution itself, in sheer magnitude of all things under the sun. Yet, the earth is more or less the same size as before. And this seems worth mentioning: what I've observed and experienced with the "why nots" of *Christianity are in no way unique to *Christianity itself. In other words, *Christianity is not offering practical solutions to common problems that all share, and so *it suffers from the same things anyone will suffer from, given the conditions for such suffering. This is my reason for "why not *Christianity." I dunno. Read the health news, for example. What things are killing most Americans that are 90% preventable? How many of these Americans are professed *Christians? And these things have been going on for some time, in and out of the various Christianities. Not towards the empty blame of any people, but to see where healing and wholeness is simply not happening, for all kinds of people. Again, this is an increasingly alarming trend, imo, perhaps only equalled by the often anti-spiritual cynicism of the reactionary *left. And so the wheels go round and round. Other civic religions go through the same kinds of things, we're just new and huge and fast. * = an accidental/unconsciously Christian, based more on an inherited civic religion and modern myth than an actual initiation of individual/group practice/discipline of Christ-like living. peace, Todd p.s. I will claim full responsibility for things I didn't mention. :D-->

yes. Our very shape of our faith/convictions is more like pottery. We (as gods in the form of God/Christ via angels) shape it with the hands of our minds (or not). Thus, we can take all the time to bake it and find a crack and still have no need to weep. Because we can crush the material to powder and use it again in another pot. We never need fear tossing a broken pot. The pot is never me for longer than a moment, anyway. Our faith is ephemeral, like the streams, tides, winds, a leaf reaching for the sun, etc... Thank God. Like an ice sculpture. Fluid. But always melting. ;)--> Which is also like a lense, as water and ice and mist are. Wisdom/hair as white as snow down to his feet, ya know? ;)--> The language of light and truth is one of depth of form. (truth is not flat, like words on a page or tablet) To the depth and degree that what we perceive fits some little key hole, a door is opened. So take care. ;)--> Jacob saw his angels climbing up and down a ladder that stretched from earth to heaven, no? hmmmm too cool

I just read the angel info you posted, Abi. pretty cool. I've seen the angelics depicted as 7 (or more) on a verticle line (based on 3), and 12 (or 24 in the case of the eldest of the elders) on a horizontal plane (based on 4). The whole thing looks like a temple/sundial. Very multi-dimensional and animate. Sometimes you gotta close your eyes to see it. ;)--> Even like a tree, where there is verticle growth and horizontal growth at the same time. Sometimes, "how many" is not clear. I mean, how many pieces can you cut a rope into? Its like choosing only metrics over standard as the truth. When the length of that which they measure is the same. (unless it is alive, of course)

You see? To cynicism alone, mere chance of error usually equals error. Possibility becomes a mostly nihilist expectation. ok. Cynic, I'm curious (but getting kinda bored, so you might actually "win" something if you keep it up) ;)--> And you can ask me anything though. Honestly. But in all fairness, please answer me, too. Its not that hard. Are you even interested in discussing healing? Do you believe in divine love? Can it be practiced? Are these things even possible, right here, right now? And if not possible for you, might they be possible for other people (who are not already dead)? ? "a quip directed against" is the only real purpose you've expressed here, thus far, regardless of what any of us claim to know or believe. How long can you keep it up? btw - I'm not offended, yer just being rude, more than anything. I wish you well. :)--> aint anti-torture grande? ;)--> mwah

An interesting quick study of "one third" in Rev 12 is to look at the word for "third," as well as where else it is used. Is it "one third of the stars?" Or "the third star?" Or "three of the stars?" Or something else? ;)--> ckeer, I've yakked this to death around here, but here it is again, in light of this thread. My belief is that the 7 spirits of God = the 7 chakras = the 7 days of Genesis = the first 7 manifestations = Christ, which is the shape of the universe. In other words, the entire universe is the same basic organic/living shape, which shape (logos) is called Christ, which each of us manifests as a being in the form of 7 "churches." Our relationship with the very essence of light itself can be a full-spectrum experience, not white and black. These 7 planes are the essence of the angelic realm, whether it manifests as a form or not. Which is why "God consulted with them" how to make man in his own image (the 7 spirits of God being the very form of all that is divine.) Yoga is a very very diverse word. The idea of yoga (yoke/union) is often based on the centermost point of the spectrum (#4 - the heart - compassion). And both arms of 3 revolve around it in an eros meets agape meets eros meets agape dance (which marriage is quite erotic and holily so). When the higher chakras/churches/angels are "sleeping" or dormant, "Lucifer" has fallen (as in fallen asleep, as in waiting to be born - which is not some moral evil, just still in a state of unconscious development). Our spiritual development is an unfolding of all of these "angels" at once, to varying depths and degrees. Again, love is the ultimate centerpoint (whether or not it is an unmoveable point depends on....well, whether we believe love is or can be such a thing, I guess). The symbolic caduceus represents all this very well. I believe it was also the raised brass serpent Moses lifted up in the wilderness for healing (which raised serpent (as opposed to the belly-crawler) IS Christ). In a sense, when the serpent is NOT lifted up, Lucifer is fallen, and illness follows. Be it a person, or family, a village, a church, a nation, etc...

Cynic, if its by way of slimy ole Beelzebub that guys like VL and Roy have gained from what I've shared, by what holy angels do you use to contribute nothing on this thread but your personal scorn? Are you even interested in healing or wholeness of mind and body? Because all you've written here seems nothing but a painful and angry response to such discussions. Off topic and rude (but kinda cute...kinda). I'm still kinda glad you posted. :)--> --- Danny, I actually kinda agree with you, kinda. I think it is cynicism and skepticism alone that causes a void. For what good is cynicism without love? Jesus did not loathe, and he did not rant (except from a cynical point of view, of course ;)-->. And he cared as much for wordly institutions as he did a sick bird on a limb. He taught how to be liberated from them without destroying them (though they may destroy themselves for a time). Should one curse the wonderful live-giving placenta for eventually becoming a useless and bloody mess? The strictly-cynical mind probably can't help itself. This is what I mean. Cynicism alone can't distinguish between what it sees. Its not in its nature to do so. It is a tool with one good purpose, but it is not The tool of tools. It doubts and questions all things equally, without measure. Keeps us on our toes as cold hard winter sets in. But unrestrained as our king, it kills our spirit. But integration of our cynicism makes it part of the whole soma of us. If we identify with our gall bladder in spite of all else, will we make better use of heart? Like the body/mind - when all parts of mind and all part of body integrate as one in our awareness. The only new thing is our point of view, which is not really a thing at all. Besides, can't a man can keep his soul and still inherit the earth? ;)-->

imo... "Lucifer, how art thou fallen?" applies to each of us. Perhaps its 1/3rd of our being (specifally that part which is made of light and sound) has fallen from where it was created. The great work is to restore this wayward son, just as Jesus the Christ himself demonstrated. Perhaps Lucifer = Christ within, not some arch-fiend (though the dark hole where Lucifer is missing may seem like an arch-enemy in our lives until it is filled again).

laleo, I'm not sure what to say. I know what I wrote of my experience and opinion may be hard on the ears. But you seem quite determined to miss or ignore many distinctions I made and have instead, whipped up a pile of ad hominen against me, personally. Truth is, I am not even offended by that Christianity which you seem to want to champion. I'll address what I wrote, not what you think I think about what I wrote. Cuz defending "myself" against "you" seems awful futile on my part. For what its worth.

And?

Nope. I am. I just am. Nothing special. What about you? :)-->

wow. How have I offended you laleo? (besides me being too stupid and too inexperienced) And whom have I condemned to anything? At whose expense have I elevated myself? I can understand why Zix doesn't offend you. You obviously share many of the same beliefs. Seems natural then, right? When I speak of this Christianity, I speak from a lot of ugly and wonderful experiences with it. How can you honestly deny me that? Is there a specific point you disagree with, or see a danger in believing, or is it just all of it in general? Someone asked "why not Christianity." Seems an important ex-way discussion. Nothing personal. Why make it so? I just wish Christianity would change for the better and do some atoning and explore its roots a bit deeper. Cuz its probably never going away, and right now, its making a lot of people real sick and dead (or is simply incapable of helping as effectively as Christ himself taught).

ironic. very. Cynic's small "contributions" seem to ooze with quite an ironic sort of anti-relevance. I've been trying not to get too excited about its popping up. Kinda sad. Kinda cute. Cold hard cynicism (not the poster) is the antithesis of compassion. Odd thing is, both come from the same place - the heart. One is full, the other is empty. One can't help but be quick to say "all things are possible." The other can't help but be quick to say "no such thing is ever possible." And cynicism can't really tell the difference between pre-rational myth and more trans-rational spiritual experience, and so it calls them both the same thing, which perpetuates a regression back to all earlier states of being (by egoicly declaring itself to be the highest state of mind possible). But stuck at the CROSSroads is what it is, of which, unity of body/mind are just on the other side (though still not the highest state of being either). This cold hard cynicism actually serves to keep lower states of mind from passing beyond what the Bible calls "carnal-mindedness." American culture is suffering from a nasty case of regressive cynicism right now, it seems. Its a lot of "liberal" cynics versus the strictly-patriarchal hardline theists. Their mantra seems to be "no one can ever be better than any one else, and all spiritual experience is equally valid/invalid as religion." People being burned by theist Christianity feuls this flatland cynicism, when there is so much more to learn and do, and amazing things are happening in spite of it all. And so, just like the theists, the cynics see any real transformative practice as more mere religion (which it is not). Or they use the ole thought-stopper of calling them "new agers" or some other shibboleth, when most any transformative practice is really older than Rome itself. And besides, it is 2004 and the world has changed many times since whenever anyway = yet another new age, as always, blah blah blah. They come and go, ya know. I think its odd, too, how, when someone suggests that old connection between divine love and pain, how certain others seem to suggest they might want to put this theory to the test (on the suggester, of course). Classic, actually, if you think about it. And it gets really nasty when someone is equally patriarchal theist and cynical wet blanket. Talk about torture chambers of the soul. Industrious, systematic AND denying most all possibility!?! Anyway, Cynic, I'm not sure what to say, but good luck, man. You only diminish your own virtue, especially when you can't disintegrate another's. --- Imagine the entire human body as also being your "brain." Every muscle, every bone, every gland. A tree of life. A tree of knowledge. A truly beautiful thing. Next time you look at your child or loved one, look at their body and think "what I see is also their mind." These things help. :)-->

The labels are kinda funny. If thats all you have/want to give, I guess. You wanna talk about it? Or just spit at/against it some more? You sound like you wanna get something off yer chest. :P-->

Hate is also a relationship. So is rape. So is theft. Which is why clarity (further illumination) is useful. "It all comes down to this" can be said about things, it seems, but only ever so lightly. I actually asked, can a person NOT be an official Christian and manifest Christ via love? But these are not fruit. They are the seed. They are the intent, not the result. So, how do we recognize the results? Are the people more or less ill? Are the people more or less broken? Are they more or less ignorant? Are they more or less afraid? Are they more or less depressed? Do they hate their enemy more or less? What do they waste and what do they do with it? This is the kind of poop that tells all. And all things must poop, even religious movements. ;)--> Because The Christ has a name that is beyond human language (thus, beyond human control). It is in form and function, which manifests from within a human heart. Unmistakable if one is looking. Most Christians of the land can't seem to recognize Christ when they see it. They are about as caught up on labels and nametags as we were in twi. "Are you a declared Christian" (based on seperation) is more important than "is your love universal?" (based on a more divine embrace). peace

Its not. And its why I don't use the word "right." I look at an animal's poop to tell what its been eating and how healthy it is. Depends on who is saying it, and what they mean. If to me, my relationship with God is expressed by torturing heretics, it will be different than one whose relationship with God is expressed by (fill in the blank). It can't not be something other than that, because those words are empty by themselves. Besides, "just simply God and Christs relationship to you on a daily basis" is not even taught in the Bible as the basic thingy we are to do. There are two commandments, right? Do they also contain the nuts and bolts of how to express them? Or must we discover this ourselves (if we even try at all, of course). Although, in a sense, it is absolutely true. Depends on who is saying it and why. ok. Tell me what this looks like. And how does it resemble Jesus the Christ?And, how would you recognize it if the person was not Christian and/or did not speak english? Can a person not be an "official" Christian and also engage in the two commandments, even to the point of manifesting Christ?

lol! Yer one creepy dude, Cynic.

To me, the wierd part is, that Jeff/John's model of heaven and earth is loaded with pantheism, which, of course, to them, is a sign of deception in all others. Regardless as to whether Christianity uses the word "pantheon" or not, the cast of character/beings are quite specific, and each play a specific role in the affairs of heaven and earth, all having first come from a father-God. There are even dragons, serpents, wierd creatures and ten-headed monsters. And, of course, they'll say that this false pantheon idea is a counterfiet of the true pantheon idea, meant to deceive "God's special people." So, does that mean it really is a pantheon, then? What say you Jeff? We are all little gods and angels in this thing, no?

amen We inherit most of our sins in the form of our body/mind. To untangle this hand we're dealt is to work out our soma/wholeness. Gentleness, precision, and mindfulness are important at this stage. In the end, every ounce of pain is discovered as worthwhile. And every break and bend and knot and tangle in our body/mind becomes our truest gifts (which actually changes our past). Heck. If we take it far enough, we may even find ourselves naked and aflame with sacrificial love for every living being we encounter, when we encounter it, where we encounter, regardless of all else (i.e. loonier than a jay-bird to all those wonderful fundamentalists and cynics and ego-centrics and pleasure-seekers, all of which are still a part of us and will ever be). Whenever we "reject" manifesting this choiceless nature of love in ourselves, we are indeed practicing a heresy, for we have chosen whom to love and whom not to love - in action and intent and heart, if nothing else. First and foremost, to love our body/mind is to feel and see and know its pains. If we are afraid of pain, we cannot know where to heal and restore. It takes courage. As we develop this, we also see others as whole (even if they don't) and can feel their pain. This too, takes courage. Especially towards our enemies. How can we find and fulfill a problem in the woods if we won't follow those bloody crumbs it leaves in its wake? How can we atone like Christ if we are afraid to lose? Pain is the path to wholeness (as it is the path to birth). When and where you flinch is where your future wisdom waits, always. When and where you will not look is where your ignorance is, always. The questions we cannot bring ourselves to ask are what reveals what we will never know.

BODY/MIND I have been learning and experiencing and benefiting from yet another different perspective that I thought I’d share with you all. As always, we can let such things amplify everything else we’ve collected before. We can and often do spend most or all of our lives trapped in our heads, thinking that our skull/brain is our only mind/ego, and that our body is an unintelligent or unthinking collection of organs that serve “us.” But there is not a part of our body that is not a part of our mind. Our body is also our mind, and our mind is also our body – every cell of it. Its another one of those things that may take a moment to grasp, but a lifetime to develop. :)--> Try this: Relax. Close your eyes. If you can, still your mind. (if you can’t still your mind, give it a try anyway, but perhaps seek to learn to still your mind someday, too). Now, examine your body with your feelings. Yes. Imagine your way around your body. Use your mind to feel around. Your toes. Your fingers. Your ears. The tip of your nose. Your hip bones. Your organs. If your mind was not already there, where you are feeling and seeing, you could not do this. And don't forget to use your natural breathing to amplify your ability to feel this way. Feel the parts that hurt and love them in spite of the pain. Feel the parts that are at peace and love them in spite of the peace. Just feel what is, and do not judge. Just compassionately engage. There may be a lot of numbness at first, because our body/mind has never really met like this. It is so cold and asleep to the idea. It may even be a first date, of sorts. But if you seek/ask/practice, in a week or a month, you will not be the same, if you are consistent and/or genuine in your inquiries. Every cell in your body responds to your mind. Every part of your mind is made of the cells of your body. And so what we eat and what we do with our temple is so important. Our cells are made of what we’ve eaten, and our body/minds are made of these same cells. Our entire body is more intelligent than we think, because it is also our mind (especially up and down our spine). Simply knowing this is enough to change our life. But how far we go with it is how far the metamorphosis will take us. try this: look at the palms of your hands. The palms of your feet. These too, are an important and complex part of your mind. Like fiber optics, there is a direct connect to the rest of the organs in your body. In other words, we can also think in/with the palms of our hands. Our self-perception (even from mere anatomical potential) is one of our most limiting factors. I mean, are we really beautifully and wonderfully made, or do we just like saying it blindly (or perhaps, severely partially)? Are we perhaps taking a lot for granted? I mean, how deep does this rabbit hole go, darling Alice? How deep is God? ;)--> The more we practice such precise awareness of body/mind, the more merged our body/mind becomes. When we can fully see our physical self as body/mind rather than a mind riding our body like a man on a horse, we enter what is called the centaur mind (in some fields). No longer horse and rider, because the enmity between body and mind is gone (not gone elsewhere, but toast). This is a true spiritual marriage and communion. As one flesh, Adam and Eve are a more perfect vehicle for the divine. Heaven and earth are reunited (in the light of The Spirit - which is another subject). And this is a healing truth which will allow you to heal parts of yourself and others via touch, even as you develop in it. But it is just the beginning, as always, of course. Without this basic union-perception, we are a living disconnect in such a dramatic way. How can we know what we're missing if we won't even look? Anyone familiar with the idea? From other schools? Peace, Todd Also, if this interests you, look into it more on your own. What I’ve written here is such a narrow slice. Don’t take my word for it. I can and do want to help.

There is a Christianity that looks for a messiah in the flesh. There is a Christianity that sees the messiah within all of us. There is a Christianity that feeds the poor in the kitchens. There is a Christianity that thinks the poor get what they deserve. There is a Christianity that thinks other religions were made by the devil. There is a Christianity that sees the Christ in all things. There is a Christianity that stands on the corner with "the end is near" on its back. There is a Christianity that sees and feels the very logos in the stars and smiles about it. There is a Christianity that is happy that their judgemental God is far far away in heaven. There is a Christianity that enters heaven and finds peace and sees God as easy as they breathe. There is a Christianity that thinks a sacrifice on an altar is something done long ago in temples. There is a Christianity that sees their mouth as the altar and their ego as the idol, and so takes great care what they offer to their maker. on and on and on... So, which Christianity are we talking about?

Why not Christianity? I am assuming that by “Christianity,” def59 means “the modern Christianity of the land” or some such thing (otherwise, there are many many other different heads on this Christianity thing). Why not? A few things… Because this Christianity of the land is sickningly contrary to everything I have come to read and learn and experience about God and Spirit and Jesus. It is contrary in the way it thinks and behaves regarding business, science, ethics, sex, politics, ecology, medicine, feminity, and spiritual practice, to name some biggies. The Jesus of the Bible was a radical revolutionary when it comes to compassionate and selfless living. This quantum-leap in human potential he illustrated and demonstrated is still quite beyond the Christian masses, who use the name of Christ to justify greed, pride, gluttony, violence, waste, etc… (just as VP/twi did) Most christians do not really believe in or practice or even understand the virtues of atonement or purification, because the “Jesus as scapegoat” idea has really relieved them of this duty (to the detriment of us all, it seems). This has got to be one of the worst misconceptions. Jesus expressed godliness not as gain or attainment, but as a complete loss and destruction of your carnal self. I don’t know a Christian who would dare to approach such a burning bush. Most Christians are not even “born again,” because they cling to self and ego with all the fear of a dying animal. There is nothing near a transformation process beyond going from heroine-addict on a mission to convert to a church-addict on a mission to convert (this is not a witness of Christ, but a witness of the wonderful benefits of group-support). Today’s Christianity is no more spiritually nourishing than those who followed the Mosaic laws. Which is why it is contrary to Christ (just as those laws were). And the differences between TWI and mainstream Christianity was/is so minor, its almost not worth distinguishing the two. All that they sleep, eat, talk, act, judge, emote is/was basically the same. I sell Christian art, have many clients, and have travelled all over the west doing hotel-ballroom shows. And I tell ya, the USA is full of spiritually paranoid TWIs, who are also afraid of (even hate) most other sub-sects of Christianity. When looking at a religion or circle or nation, ask yourself, “how healthy and whole are the women and children?” This will tell you how and where and if the Prince of Peace lives there. If the ill of body and soul are piling up at your temple gates, who can honestly say Christ lives there? “Peace on earth and goodwill towards men” is a global and universal idea. But most Christians think that only they are “God’s people.” And that Christ would justify war or violence on behalf of such a carnally-identified religion (in order to bring peace on earth and goodwill towards men, of course). What most Christians think about other traditions of other scriptures is quite ignorant. Because most Christians are driven to their version of Christ by fear of their own devil, and not by love at all. They’ll never even investigate before they condemn and shoehorn their favorite boogeyman as the author. Mainly, Christians still do not understand their own Jesus, let alone Moses, Abraham, Melchizadek, Solomon, etc… Because the current dogma is quick and easy, just like a big mac in a drive thru. You don't even have to know what a cow or potato looks like to eat them. Truth is, Christ is quicker and healthier than even this. This spirit is more like picking living fruit off a living tree. And I long for a day when the name of Christ is rescued from the hands of Christians. And just as most major world religions – all their true spiritual gems are buried under a mountain, it seems. Christianity is just historically one of the more aggressive and nasty mountains. Measure the waste, not the food, and you can measure a faith's relationship with Gehenna, always. Todd (a notorious thread killer)

I think the difference between sin and mistake has more to do with spelling of the words, more than anything else. And then our own personal inner pictionary connected to them. Does the word "sin" require a moral component to understand? Or is that another thing entirely. I mean, how many sins cause mistakes to be made, and how many mistakes made cause more sin? Some sins/mistakes are made by us, And some sins/mistakes are made to us. Seems Christ got a lot of his sinning/mistaking out of the way in David's life, anyway. No wonder David can sing the blues so well. No wonder Christ is so wise. :)-->

But, before I forget to mention, I think there is a stark difference between the holy spirit (as in breath of soul) and The Spirit (of the nesting in Genesis). I guess I emphasised what I've seen in the holy spirit as breath of the soul, because even as "mere" soul, it is often horribly underrated and underused in our quest for greater Spirit (which quest will never pan out anyway). Very exciting and beneficial field. But, the stark contrast is... ...the holy breath can be manipulated, used, developed and learned from, and we get great active principle benefits to life. But it is a thing. ...The Spirit can only be rested in (or not). Nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing to see here. As a practice, this "resting in the witness" is probably the one most worthy to be called foundational to all else. Not that it is superior (rather, it is beyond all things) but, to the depth and degree one can rest in Spirit, all else grows upward and outward more efficiently and effectively. Even our breathwork. Because as we rest in The Spirit, nothing gets in the way of our view of all the other things. There are so many ways "spirit" and "Spirit" is used in english, let alone the english bible canon. But this "resting in the witness" version seems a, if not the, most common denominator when comparing all scripture with all "spiritual" things. I think this Spirit is what you say you want VL, which is why you can't find it anywhere. It cannot be found. It just is. Always. Stop looking and you find it. Though the holy spirit helps us learn to rest in That Spirit. Active and inactive spirit together = a non-dual oneness. Like I said, there are also practices that aid in this.

to answer a question from 2life on another thread... My breathwork began post-twi in Bible "research" of pneuma hagion, actually. And I saw how the eastern sciences were not a threat to Christ-centered spirituallity, but a witness of them (but that is a doctrinal thing, I guess). It then developed into a practice once I learned there was something to practice. My first successes came from some basic techniques from Kundalini Yoga, but I have studied and sampled and practiced a dozen other breathwork traditions since, and have developed some of my own rituals and routines. But learning styles differ, of course. Where you begin depends on where you are now, I suppose. But you know that. ;)--> Dr. Weil produced one of the best primer breathwork CDs I have ever heard. I think its an efficient place for westerners to begin. But breathwork alone is like painting with one color. Good diet multiplies the benefit of breathwork. As do things like meditation, reading, clear thought, dreaming, sexual practice, etc... They all work best in harmony together. Full-spectrum practice, or integral practice (whatever you want to call it), AMPLIFIES the results. Now I can't not think of air as food and medicine, literally. No figure of speech or fancy poetry. "Its just air" is a "blasphemy" of sorts, in that its an attitude that destroys our own bodies and souls. But by using our breath, we can heal ourselves (and even those we touch) if we learn and practice. I've seen it, felt it, repeated it, etc... But, as always, its to the depth and degree. It will be years before I would ever attempt to write anything on the subject. Simply because it would take me that at least that long to find suitable words for something so wonderful. And, I would rather know more and live it a bit more before I open my yap too officially. On a sadder note, most people I know these days are ill and suffering from lifetime of one abuse or another. Some are in end-stage of this that or the other, too. Breathwork is more preventative and developmental, even restorative. It does not replace the need for a lung transplant, if it has gotten to that (though certain breath techniques have helped ME greatly in helping in these situations). You need good lungs/heart/blood to get the most out of breathwork. Its best as a lifestyle thing, rather than band-aid or cosmetics, though is a great aid in healing (emotional or physical). :)-->