sirguessalot

ok, Seeing as how the idea was ignored or somehow considerd off-topic on other threads (who can tell?), I thought I’d start one of my own thoughts on the topic from a different angle...and see what shakes loose. I am open to and would truly enjoy a dialogue with any usually vocal gsc regulars on this possible doctrinal hot potato (such as vert, wwolf, raf, pfal mike, mark s, def, lindy, lortz, oak, song, tgn, and whomever I missed...). heck, if they show up, I’ll even set out a bucket for the more acidic nihilists and hard-liner “impossibilists” among us to reflexively barf their disgust into.:P--> Biblical/Scriptural/Doctrinal Prejudices and Racisms ...are there such things? ...are they “biblically” justified? The ways in which most flavors of Christianity most often use the words “biblical” and “pagan” seem to suggest so, as does the thought of a strictly “biblical” “universalism” (a strange oxymoron, unless I am missing something). I'm not asking about the mere bodily prejudices that arise naturally from one’s own flesh and blood and culture and ties to the blood red earth I am asking regarding those textual and linguistic taboos...the cognitive and contemplative blind-spots that we’ve been taught and often taught ourselves to keep and possess and codify regarding which races and human histories actually have or have not “communed with the true God about spiritual life and practiced and wrote about it,” and I'm asking about the practice of so easily choosing which races’ and patriarchies' doctrinal and practical lineages are worth calling things like “spiritual” and “good” and “useful” for things like skillful means towards “peace on earth and goodwill towards all,” “breaking the bread of life,” yada yada yada... ...and also, the practice of deciding which races’ doctrinal and practical lineages are somehow to be “exposed/destroyed/converted as deceptive tools of the greatest adversary in the universe spoken thru his supernatural and human agents and pawns, and so are causing the downfall of the world,” yada yada yada... It seems to me, these are forms of mostly unconcious (thankfully) but systematic “biblical xenophobia.” This old, old human habit of somehow demonizing or marginallizing most all “alien” books, thoughts, stories, poems, spiritual concepts and traditions. A problem which all families of bible-thumpers of babylon wrestle and war with and suffer from...by cutting themselves and others off from many many other authentic skillful means. I am talking about a deeper racism that comes from beyond one’s own bodily lineage, by being more associated with what race’s soul is somehow deemed worthy (or unworthy) to have (and record) genuine experiences and practices and studies and histories and myths and expressions of both the generic demonic and generic divine. There can be a whole level of “loving thy neighbor” (or not), it seems, way beyond mere bodily neighborhood or elitist membership (but also not mere thoughtless acceptance of all practices as being equally valuable) :)--> If anyone is game to wrestle or play (or go to war) with this idea...I know it’s potentially a touchy subject for many, but I don’t mind a challenging dialogue, especially one that might even turn out to be valuable and somehow transforming (for me, too) And I’d not only like to discuss and share thoughts on the above, but also... - How, especially in this present age and time, all our subtler ways of “biblical xenophobia” (as I’ve kinda daringly framed it...) might actually be causing more of the damage, suffering, sadness and hatred than mere old-world physical or bodily or cultural racism is often reflexively blamed for - How this very broad personal censoring of “alien” doctrine and practice (most often merely for being alien in heritage) seems in direct opposition to the teachings of Jesus (already king of the whole world, btw) and his peers and followers (who actually seemed to have intended to heal their own traditions and texts of this old ethnocentric “yoke,” and thereby expressing a new way to “redeem” other authentic wisdoms and laws during a very pivotal window of western/eastern history) - How this way of embracing a truly universal Christness in no way nullifies the traditions and practices of any “bible” or tradition or canon of bibles (especially considering the utter majesty of the aBrahamic lineage, imo), but rather honors and redeems all bloods and traditions of the earth...right here, right now, in yer face, in both heaven and earth...perhaps by simply starting with a more open and shameless inter-textual discourse of soul and spirit... ...and in a way that is so radically different than most of the ways of old world and old, old world of isolated evolving peoples (with many exceptions), that it may even more clearly express those broader universal realities of the promises and prophecies of the Gospels and infamous magical “tongues” events of Acts...as a quite real and sane and loving and open and universal way or style or form of “breaking bread” available to all. ...and not only a way to talk about the universal commonalities of the ancient traditions, but a way to make sense of the all very important distinctions and contexts as well...regardless of the language sets and proper names and titles and labels and such for things. (I know. It almost sounds like something like drunks would try to do in the morning...:P-->) It is my opinion, that using a more “omnipotent style of fellowship,” Jesus and his subsequent followers simply taught us how to save our own selves in this regard... to save ourselves from that old world and old old world “biblical” racism, not to mention save ourselves from a ton of other basic things. And as we learn more and more to imitate him and his way, he is literally being manifest to the world from that deepest within ourselves. And so what book did he actually use and prefer? What set of holy laws and wisdom traditions? What unbreakable standard above all standards would be so open and embracing? Love...duh :)--> Life and Light itself In all the fullness of the Spirit Because these are real and living and potent forces that are beyond trying to possess And the most reliable of all, imo and experience I’d rather have such a compass without a map, than a map without such a compass, any day (though both obviously work best together, not to mention a g.p.s. thingy) Again, I know I may have bit a monster on the weeny with this one, but I am trying to do so with as much of a mixture of peace and urgency as I can summon I look forward to what might happen :)-->

sorry, simon. both examples were meant to represent forms of homosexuality. one at war, one at play. :)-->

lol, Simon. sex too. whether its good for us or not depends on the dynamics (pos vs neg, "good" vs "evil") the will and intentionallity of the "players" and the fruit, the fruit, the fruit i mean, clashing patriarchies are large very destructive regressive violent homosexual orgies of the body and soul that leave large bloody smoking swathes across history and life and future...as compared to two gay pagan kids dueling with sticks in the woods for sport and play. i mean, there are many ways to express the same sexual frustrations and curiosities one sends millions and millions of souls to hell for many generations, the other sends two kids to hell for eternity? which one should God warn against most harshly? --> there is obviously a wide range of depth and degree to any relative dynamic of working out sin or salvation its the symmetry of masc and fem body soul and spirit that makes love (not war, but play and healing). but perhaps more importantly, its the quality and character of that space between (without breaking it). and the awareness of the value of unfolding process over mere outcome (cuz good process will cause good outcome) we can find the most creative thrill in the depth and degree and variety by which we can maintain tension without breaking the bond and causing enmity...call it marriage, zion, quantum, tantra, yoga, kundi....whatever. the adventure. the mystery. the divine romance like the dancer on skates who tosses his partner in the air and catches her or better yet....the safe man who can be trusted to touch and heal women and children without always trying to take something for himself (money, fame, sex, power, anything...) the difference between a prince of peace and a prince of war is based primarily on sexuallity and desire. i mean, talk about a war worth winning – like “michael versus the devil within. saving her within from the red dragon within.” causation carries this process outwardly into the world (whether its one man, or a billion men makes a lot of difference) otherwise, the men simply go to war, like fish whose heads have been thwacked against a rock. no wonder Jesus could forgive them so easily. they're shark-eyed this kind of open agape love is the universal creative process that we can always rely on cuz it is an inferno. the burning bush. the lawless law. the anchorless anchor. the very idea of it is a burning hell to some a merciless God chasing us towards darkness this is the war to be won. the marriage to be had. the wrestling match to win. the mountain to climb. the spiritual song to be sung. maybe (like most of the rest of the bible) ephesians is also mostly an erotic tale :P-->

i've loved reading this thread. i think the difference between the "self-saving christianity" and the "christian universalism" is a distinct one. and worthy of all praise, yada yada. but i think the next challenge to biblical universalism is to get over the scriptural racism that binds to the bible, and perhaps take a look at the possibility that the "Moses experience" was one that all races must go thru (and many have). like how individuals and societies both do grow from the same stage to stage, each stage being better than the next, but also having gifts that need to be carried forward... (this is just a loose off-the-cuff list, using the familiar body/soul/spirit model) CENTERED ON BODY 1 - animalistic (instinctual) 2 - tribal (gatherers, shamanism) 3 - warlords, gangland (led by selfish masculine for self-preserving reasons) 4 - ethnocentric or nationalistic membership, patriarchy, monarchy (full of justice and law and rules - like feudalism), masculine reliance upon messiah/child to save him 5 - meritocracy, industry, science, freer markets (like what the US did coming out of the patriarchies and monarchies) CENTERED ON SOUL 6 - wordcentric, global, non-racist, non-sexist, compassionate, healing (and dying), women and children, liberal education and communication (like where the jews touched for the first time on pentecost and more so later in Acts) 7 - subtle realm, dreams, astrology, visions, quickening of cognitive skills and logic, invention, innovation, the realm of "mere" possibility CENTERED ON SPIRIT 8 - independence from identification with body and ego. actual experience with (during pre-mortal death) post-death realities. the "new birth." angelic/christ experience (often confusing angelic self as "other") 9 - bliss, nirvana, heaven, the ground of all being, from where we can free-fall "downward", and "return" to earth (tho many get stuck "up" here too) its our "addiction" or "possession" of any of these stages of evolution at the exclusion of the others that is anti-christ or an evil spirit. also, we can peak and develop in any stage, tho our center of gravity may be in the lowest (such as the familiar world-class genius whose center of gravity is warlord or ethnic) also, notice how our devil/enemy gets smaller and smaller...tho nothing changes outside...just us, within. perspective. faith. whatever perhaps you can see how Moses was not in the same stage as those he freed. but he was trying to elevate them to their next available stage, and free them from the patriarchies empowered by developed higher stages (such as soul-powers of the pharoahs, for example). and so sure, the jews will think they were chosen, if everyone else is at tribal and warlord. and of course, they are warned against tampering into the higher stages before they are ready. anyway, most importantly, what strictly biblical universalists need to see, i think, is how the logos is simply generic and human. it just needs to be quickened on all levels(turned on) so it can evolve. no new parts required. and nothing need be removed. and its the same logos that is the universal shape of the cosmos (you all know the verses). and so maybe consider how much of scriptural prophecy is simply referring to the changing of our own inner perspectives, which then changes the whole world as the numbers add up. yes, all knees shall eventually bow, and all that. for what its worth...

i did an interesting study once on the Olympiads, and found it interesting how during the time of the writing of Paul's epistles, many of the cities the epistles were addressed to were also listed as having winners in the games (but mostly for things like flute playing). it kinda goes to show, how these societies must have been whipped up in the olympic frenzy, even more than a modern city during any play-offs or modern olympics. especially considering how their faiths and beliefs and spirituallities were mingled with the events. in their enthusiasm, they would even tear down a section of the city walls for the "obviously divine" victor to return home thru. if Paul was universal-minded (rather than race-minded, or self-minded) it seems highly plausible to me that his pen was to the appealing to all jargons at once...the militant, athletic, religious, ritualistic, legalese, spiritual, the greek, the jew, the barbarian/pagan, the roman (just to name a few). he was finally willing and able to speak to humanity as one. and to the degree we see only one aspect (like seeing only war), it reveals to us how limited our own perspective is. (same with the book of rev, btw, or any other book on the planet for that matter) the epistle itself is mostly a poem...of appeal. very general sweeping terms. and so, the rules of language were Paul's own - not jewish, not greek, not roman...but all of them at once. speaking in all these other tongues. cuz he was free from the corner of Babylon of his upbringing. he could appeal to anyone on the planet, without much preparation, cuz he was speaking in a meta-language, of sorts. and in this case, he was singing in this "new tongue" to the ephesians (worth comparing to the victory-minded ephesians of the book of rev...they do not like to lose) but to know that we are in a war, and in a race, and in a marriage, and... Christ is all inclusive

:)--> really nice articles and stuff, Mark taking a break from a flooring job... permit a tad rant on "Biblical Universalism"... i would even go as far as to suggest another close relationship between "ages" and "days of the lord," textually...as representing the universal, eternal and cyclical nature of all things great and small, one that stimulates the very waves of evolution in the various body, soul and spiritual domains. thus, in history, we can see global and cultural waves of enlightenment and learning and behaviour that can be understood as events taking place during "the hours" of a much larger day. or seasons of a much larger year. or phases of a much larger moon. rife with peaks, quarters, twilights, storm seasons, roosters, rainbows, etc... i mean, if its round and turns, its naturally gonna produce its own quarters and such. cardinal points, etc... one thing universal, is the everpresent cycle inherent that rips everything (inlcluding us) to pieces and forces rebirth and evolution of not only body, but soul and spirit and beyond. a flaming sword that turns every way. no one can touch it or remove it. hot as hell. always stirring the pot. and so always being whipped up by it are successions of windows and twilights and cyclones of awareness in human history, where "the veil" is lifted (or drawn) on the past and future. a dawning of sorts, inside and out, sometimes even as summation experiences on the evolution of consciousness and experience as a unified whole (or whatever you want to call the collective interior domain). which, like all dawns and springs, is a rapid period of change and excitement (and violence and danger). increased awareness and experience and "acceptance" or "defeat" of this universal "enemy/devil/hell" frees us from the duality of that primal enmity, enables us to rest and relax and go thru the many changes of rebirths that we can face in one human lifespan (now that we're no longer spiritual wussies) (not to mention giving us greater accuracy in "forecasting" peaks, waves, shifts, trends, changes, emergence in any field of study/ology, even looking beyond our own lifespan.) literally falling in love again with that divine unity, in body, soul and that creative spirit. on a side note: i would also suggest that our mortal life is simply one season in the much longer and wider life of an older more collective being of soul. and it is this larger aspect of ourselves that is living and dying to the ebb and flow of this greater kosmological day/age being discussed. and what a gift...all language and racial context is transcended and included in this "place." such as scriptural racism (which Jesus and his students obviously came to free the wisdom of the jews from). on these subtler planes, perhaps our eternal existance has already been woven and begun, and somehow revamped and restarted from age to age to age. The Christ simply comes and goes and comes and goes, from hour to hour to day to day. bigger and better every time, truly having a name beyond all names (by ultimately resting in the oceanic nameless, as a cosmic surfer of heavenly tides) ok...back to knuckle-banging :)-->

head first, song. definately head first, it seems. ok, now for the reason i bailed on the thread... after almost 8 years together, my wife and i have "somehow" fallen madly in love with each other again, and have decided to court and elope again, which involves us parting for a long while, and so which also is turning out to be quite an adventure, one that is sure to change our lives most dramatically (which is why we're doin it). and so it also seems we are most likely now somehow clinically insane. :D--> head first, song. definately head first, it seems.

god, i wish i did, winvega71 we were friends, Christi and i fellow wows and such same circles i knew her for a couple years, then lost touch when she "went way disciple" in about 96 or so i don't recall where but i think about her from time to time wishing her well made some good friends in those days good luck in yer search say hi from me if you find her :)-->

hi Belle. i use a bigger brush. like a vegetable brush. also, i stopped being so anal about how clean it get it every time i use it (which used to be once a day). and i soak it really good once or twice a week. and once very so often i hit it with this steamer thingy i got at Home Depot. something i've been meaning to try, is nuking a cuple cups of water and pouring it thru the juicer while its still going. see if it cuts down on the cleaning time. if that works, i might find a way to gut the hardware and rig a way to put it in the sink without gettin shocked. bottomline for me, i love and benefit from the way it juices way too much to ever put it down. i think part of the problem is how its kinda trapped on the countertop. a "gift" from conventional 20th century technology, i guess. i hear ya about how hard it is to eat healthy in the hustle bustle of things. if i had my druthers (which i just might soon), i would husband an orchard and a garden. :)-->

too cool, lindy just passin thru, myself :)--> yep fo sho this is the paradox that haunts us aBraham's "rest" the great mystery yada yada god is just too obvious to see what now?

hey guys. sorry to vanish just when things are getting interesting. speaking of "dipping," i think i've just "jumped in up to my armpits." so i hope to check back in a few days or so, once things untangle a bit more. vert, i see no shame in such courage, my friend. i am very very glad to have you around to tell the tale. :)--> and omg, song, thanks for telling yer criket "story." effen amazing. tgn.... ;)--> peace, Todd

awww...you just had to go and tip over the bottle...lol... :P--> ok, i hear what yer saying...but also perhaps consider this... (not "but", but "and also..." btw) ...the extreme value we get from also distinguishing the wide variety of types and styles and flavors and modes of "wine" in the now. not all are the same age, not all are the same quality or potency. even in the now, there is still an ongoing evolutionary arrangement to consider. cuz we are always moving there is a lot of value in bringing the traditions forward. the languages. the texts. the rituals. the cultures. so much of our evolutionary development happened in those days. if the guys who started working at the beginning of the day are not supposed to shun the guys who started working at the end of the day...what about the guys who started working at the end of the day? should they shun the old timers? ...same pay, either way.

vert, perhaps it truly was You who forgave you in heaven, just cuz i did in heaven. two buttons, one line. damn near quantum physics. like playing at kosmic jump-rope, or hop-skotch. or..."you saved yerself, kid" ~ neo he he - just by playing along now we can make circles as one (like black holes) and blow bubbles or smoke rings or something. lol all it takes is two, right? but 3 is more potent, and all that

omg...that is priceless, tgn! in more ways than i could possibly express i wonder, what would an inside/out party look in a venue like this? and..then, is this a suitable venue for such a thing? what good role could scriptures take? live open events, as opposed to friendly-only crowds? what might that look like? what kind of stir? i mean, we, the world, have already quite gone all sorts of mad, that's bloody obvious sometimes i think jesus was just a good hearted trouble maker like a thief. the lovable rogue. the divine scamp. knows how to love the ladies without harming them. the cops cant catch him unless he gives up on purpose. changing faces, escaping death that kinda sh!t. he he "Behold!!! ....hey, you guys wanna see something really really really really cool?" :D--> and..."oh...it's not me who the good master" but something much deeper/higher than this (probably pointing at his own meat and blood) why not awaken him from within? lol like lighting off a fire cracker uh oh....look out! here it comes...like John the B said. and perhaps also its how to stimulate and guide that sparkling fuse rather than just blow yourself up you gotta learn to dip your toes in hell before you get to heaven or like blowing on a tuft tinder "exhale," was one of the last things he said, if nothing else, learn to exhale

wow, vert and all. check this out... and here is some Strong's on that word "aside" its like..."i will now depart so I can see" or maybe also..."i will turn myself inside out..." lol

:)--> and...in the sense that everything changes and is changing, perhaps heaven is simply that which changes, can change, and does change, very rapidly (and being a much smaller place than earth...). also, the more living the heaven, the greater or more diverse or adaptive and willful or intentional the changes are (as opposed to unconscious change) the spirit quickens, after all and God is a consuming fire

:)--> yeah, vert, i think its good to sit and talk such things away. so...you are hereby officially excused for the way you sound. lol funny how we can forgive sins like that, in our, the heavens, as it were as if we're gods or sumthin to forgive sins is not a magic power tho at times, it may feel like we might need something magical to actually pull it off and so, i wonder what happens on earth when we do that? to forgive sins. seems damn near rebellious to me. sitting around singing like drunks in the morning knowing without being told that yer words are being read and enjoyed no, not because they've been quoted back at ya in a court of law but because the response is in a time and tune and harmony you recognize as your very own (yet also not your own)...regardless of the actual words and names being used its gotta be a sign of something, even if we don't quite know what it is (or what to call it) :P--> and, i think it helps to remember, that in all our ways of harmlessness, we can't forget the wisdom of serpents either cuz it is a good thing to take our teddy bears and descend to our childhood or the childhood of the world, or the childhood of your community to rest and settle and return to that original place in peace and without shame to return to earth and untangle the demons and knots and such it is another good thing to continue to rise and ascend when and where we are strong knowing our edge so we can push it, lifting ourselves from shelf to shelf to shelf and of course, the fastest way to move things up and down is to bungee like a fool from your heighest plateau... the higher the dive the deeper the hells and so wwjd? :P--> but the first thing ephesians says we gotta learn is to sit where Christ sits that is the jump point, it seems now both past and future, heaven and earth continue to heighten, lengthen, deepen, widen from this place no, not just to eliminate the ego, but to teach it how to die and come back from the dead whenever it needs and so also how to nourish it, wash it, and decorate it like a christmas tree inside and out

lol, song. i was referring to the silence... ...to which only the crikets will reply :)--> ((Too Gray)) good to see you! now we're playing with fire! as they say...hehe now reminds of Frodo's violently vaporous perspective of the world when he slipped on the ring of power. his (and therefore likely Tolkien's) peek up the skirt of Job's whirlwind, so to speak. there is also that flaming sword which guards this garden of the new. that infamous garden which is always just east and rising towards wherever it is we are at the time. are we always just one NOW away from it? a single breath, a twinkle of an eye, away from radical possibility? another question is, perhaps...is it that we must then plunge headlong into this fire like skydiving lunatics? like Jesus and the folks he both followed and picked? following some terrifying blood red path to enlightenment? i would say no (tho, there's always room for extreme sports and cockroaches...lol). cuz i think there is also always much room and wisdom for practical kinds of ways to mindfully dip the toes and pink parts of our soul one little ooh ahh at a time into that everpresent baptismal font. :P--> tho, of course, one get also can addicted to anything, even holy things, long after their use has worn out. like vert recalled...nothing unclean of itself. but we can still leave skid marks in our underwear. lol

rofl. nice nandon. this stuff is funny...damn near embarrasing or theraputic. and yeah, i recognized a handful in me, too, not to mention posting styles from all over forum-land. i personally like the big cat the most :D-->

wow. vert, song, goey, sun, def... thank you all for singing along i guess we're not so done after all :)--> yes good...what is heaven? cuz that "what" is like a missing finger on a full hand of good questions (so have at it). and so maybe i'm just flashing a peace sign with just two of em. lol i suppose the difference between the heavens and the kingdom of heaven is quite like the difference between the minerals and the kingdom of mineral we know heaven is on one side of a universal firmament, opposite earth. ;)--> but that we've somehow fallen out of it, or maybe dropped out of it, leaving us quite unable to re-penetrate that firmament without some sort of trail of clues. re: future heaven versus present heaven... perhaps it is from moment to moment that all creation dies and is born from now to now to now to now so yeah...was, is, will be no matter what time it is just this always but that generic logos is what always lingers not a thing, per se, but a form and function of every now that winks by infinite in variety...but an unbreakable majestic loop which simply exhausts us, especially if we don't know its there... we reach peaks and peek from time to time, but without finding a firm plateau or rung. practice. thats all. like learning to play a harp or flute. which reminds me of this..."And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name." its like...even if we've only just tasted "it" once or twice, we can rest in comfort from understanding how it will simply never ever close on us...ever. cuz this window has just always been open. so we can just sit our broken bloody a$$es down for once on that ancient threshold and rest awhile. laugh. cry. hoot and holler. whatever. maybe look up and see who else is sitting there. and so we have time to prepare ourselves to enter even further. like how Abraham found his Rest. :P-->

the just love Dave Matthews music... the space be tween... Milky Way's Center Packed with Black Holes Strange Space Blobs Get More Mysterious now that's gotta at least be a few omni-somethings going on... same thing going on inside, of course...thru that firmament a real eye of clarity and thoughtless, honest creativity we can flee it, get lost in it, or go surfing, i suppose oceanic ignorance and purity beyond measuring faceless nameless blameless and void best seat in the house lol :P--> :D--> ok, ok. sorry for the limricks guys. its been quite an amazing few days for me. even as the world seems to have picked up its pace on the usual roads to hell. i think i can see why striking up the band on the deck of the titanic might have been a pretty good idea. he he

ok, im sure you guys are probably pretty much done with me by now...judging from the crickets and such. and yeah...i know how i am. i probably dont quote enough bible verses to back up my yackity yack. so i did a quick kjv strongs on usage of heaven in the gospels and pasted the first page as it came up. thought id express, point, test, try, play, deceive...whatever it seems, the things ive been babbling about. so i guess i'll use "the big guns" to try and dig myself into a deeper hole. :P--> more peeing in the ocean, i guess. commentary, twi-style, for old times sake. heer goes... Mt 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. *funny. even a saying as old as this still has such a present tense to it. as if heaven is always here and now...if we just change something. as opposed to heaven always being trapped in the distant past or the unseen future, or in outer space or some other dimension or location. Mt 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. *whether everyone heard it or not, depends on whether their inner ears were open or not, i think. if that inner door to heavenly hearing is open. where we dream, envision, remember, foresee things, etc... if everyone was so open in this regard, yes, we might even all hear the same spiritual pin drop. Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. sure, he was the king of it and could say it... perhaps because even as he says it he is knowing and experiencing it...how heaven is always right here, right now. ...if you change something of course...bust any cracked pot that says heaven is not here and now. the pot is just the shape of the container anyway. not the spirit itself. the spirit will change shape to fill any pot. Mt 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. *there does seem a benefit to emptiness as it pertains to inner clarity. Mt 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. *reminds me of how jacob wrestled with a shadow-self. or how to make friends with our enemy is an outward sign of an inner "discipleship" or "studentship" or "mastery program" whatever. cuz who we choose as an enemy on the outside must have a relationship with something going on inside. if there is darkness within, how deep is it? dare we enter with a candle held high and see what causes it? Mt 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. *grace under pressure. inward conditions (degrees of peace) are only really proven when the pressure is on. pressure is no excuse for calling sin righteousness...its a major revealer. and a hell if we hate this idea...heavens if we don't. Mt 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. *is maybe the same creative patronage (the builder, the architect) that thunk up the first humans, just always also in us (whether we like it or not), simply as that divine template or model of our being human (functional or not)? perhaps the deeper we simply rest in this, the farther out into the world we manifest it. all the goodies just sitting there dormant. sleeping. unborn. Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. *again, perhaps, til we shatter that inner pot, that inner faith of how the heavens and earth work we will be trapped in the shape of that same ole cracked pot. programmed by its design. perhaps until we get bored and unsatisfied with its limitations...no matter how long it takes us. heck, meditation works like this. rebirth of the faith and soul by a death of sorts...be it a long or quick death, accidental or intentional death. bottomline, nothing is going to change until whatever self-imposed law/s is/are fulfilled (which limitations as a tool can be very useful when focused. like breaking blocks with inward kung fu). Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. *not sure what the commandments are, but it shouldn't be too hard to guess. and again, what if "shall" is an ever-present possibility? instant karma, so to speak. start teaching hate or seperation or enmity, and we're most likely coming from a low low inner place. no wonder the Herods of the world are quite often killed by various gut problems. the inward minimum (least) is selfishness and self-preservation. Mt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. *in other words, if i dont at least get over the bookisms and boundaryisms, i'm not gonna "get it" on the inside anyway ("it" being that entering into the absolute mansion of inward possibilities and realities and blah blah blah). Mt 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: *the throne, the steering wheel, the game controller of the soul...as amazing as it is...its gonna always change on ya too. metamorph, turn your life inside out. cuz its gift is in how less-solid it is. causal energy. subtle energy. soul. spirit. whatever. it doesn't hurt the smoke to chop the smoke. Mt 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. *eh. id have to check the context, i guess. but there's the idea that our outward being is the child of our innermost being as it manifests. and father and child are running away from us in both in/out directions at once. we are just at the intersection, the firmament, still yawning and scratching our heads. Mt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. *that generic divine source template in each of us...be ye now...unfold it in perfection and maturation or something. we're obviously never gonna be done. ever. ever. ever. but the cause is first within. Mt 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. *can't have much progress on inner work if we're focused on outer work, can we? especially if the most effective kinds of inner work are marginalized, or somehow considered evil and deceptive. Mt 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. *classic Mt 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. *again, spirit as an outward manifestation, from heaven to earth. unlocking the inner gifts and treasures is the most potent way to change their lives on the outside. rather than the other way around. Mt 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: *he he. inner peace. inner clarity. inner hope. inner compassion. what the heck can steal these today if the inner pot that holds the soul has a working functional integrity? Mt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? *that inner foundation is already laid. and good, from the beginning. no matter what happens on the outside. the inner gifts are just sitting there, genetically, spiritually, just waiting to be unwrapped. a book might help point at them, but that most holy scripture most relevent to our life is already within you and me. has been all along. Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. *lip service to a messiah or famous name on the outside cannot not replace the actual unlocking of inner doors. it will not get us to the source of our very selves. Mt 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. *now this is cool. how many thousands of wisdom traditions all over the world were influenced by the spiritual teachings of the aBrahmic lineage? regardless of race or language or proper names or text...if within, they enter that kingdom, in truth, based on the actual methods and practices of the one taught by Melchizadek himself...they will indeed sit in that exact same inner seat as anyone else. regardless of race or language or textual or literary limitations. for what its worth... rest in peace

yeah, why not just say that God is something, everything, and nothing either and get some Rest in peace. put it to bed. :)--> perhaps the saints are laughing and crying because after all their hard work and suffering and living, they found that creation is just one complex evolving series of fart jokes. :D-->

i think the classic "in Him we live and move and have our being" summed it up quite well. if we are standing next to someone, but are unaware of them being there, we would still believe and think and act as if we are far from them, no? and i mean, who could blame us for believing so? even if we were a pimple on God's nose, so to speak, we would still be wondering where He is, in this state (not realizing we are in the surface of His nose. so to speak, and thus, one with Him.) perhaps its the illusion of enmity that precedes the actual enmity. enmity behind behaviour. enmity behind choices. enmity behind whatever it is one dares to look at. just as a wonderful illusion of hope must precede an actual manifestation of that hope. hope behind the behaviour hope behind the choices hope behind whatever it is one dares to look at but also, as we have seen, its gonna take more than any ole story or translation of that divine intersection to shatter that illusion of enmity for us. in fact, some versions just seem to dig us deeper into enmity and seperation from divine possibility.

Oak's got a point, Def. What is a real question? How do we determine which ones precede others? and...where is God located? the heaven/s? the spiritual realm/s? ok, then, where are they? upper space? outer space? inner space? non-space? if God is everywhere, and always, why should we even be concerned about the distance between us? what if that distance we perceive is the illusion and the enemy we weep and gnash about? would not the death of this perception itself be a deliverence thru and thru? what if this is that very enmity Christ came to remove? the enmity in our self-perception? after all, even an adversary of our mind's eye is enough bind us as if it was real, no? its like all of our actions are limited to what we believe in the very heavens of our own heart and soul. even if its just a splinter in our eye, a small thing will keep us from entering the mind of christ, right? the kingdom of heaven? keeps us from loving the enemy/enmity? btw - def, not all those questions are for you, directly. just reasoning together. outloud. peace