sirguessalot

Ten Bulls is one of my favorite Zen poems. and these articles on Buddhism and the Roman world and Greco-Buddhism shed further light on the world of the Gospels and NT. so how might the lineages of Buddhism relate to the lineages of Abraham? like Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed...Buddha is being interpreted form every state and stage of human experience. some people are even interpreting Buddhists text to justify genocide against Hindus in Sri Lanka.

maybe Abraham experienced kensho and satori and interpreted and re-interpreted them throughout his own ego trip 100th monkey at the dawn of myth and culture in a more infantile and feral world seed father of many branches of symbols sayings and languages melchizadek was the yoda of his journey...the old wise man of his youth meanwhile, the populations of the world continue to develop in fields of waves and waves of fields interpreting and re-interpreting all the branches of the story from every stage of the play

pondering between chores... perhaps it can be said that Jesus was somehow the most developed of history, and happened to be a jewish man. and everyone who experienced him began interpreting and acting from wherever they were in their development at the time. just as we have been doing since the dawn of time. this generates streams of artifacts and activity that flow into a history already deep beyond deep with artifacts flowing from a world of people interpreting and acting from wherever they are. abraham was interpreting melchizadek. melchizadek was interpreting abraham. jesus was interpreting them both, john the baptist was interpreting jesus. every prophet, saint, rabbi, hero and villain interprets the world and the things they've read or heard about it from wherever they are. and mohammed was interpreting them all from where he was, which seems more like David, in general. and the bahai are interpreting all that. yada yada yada and we are now interpreting some aspect of that vast ocean of artifacts from where we are. we have interpreted some of the same aspects of this vast ocean of artifacts from different places at different points in our life. the worldview of everyone posting or reading this has already come a long way baby. yet, are we ever really done? no one is better than anyone else in any sort of absolute or ultimate sense...yet we are still full of qualities.

i respectfully disagree...because imho, "the arts of dying" are the most likely foundational contexts for the NT, and the lessons learned are highly relevant in every phase of life. if there was any Jewish wisdom being restored by Jesus, it involved the arts of dying, which begins when we are born, perhaps even before. the living can be as enlightened by the dying as the one who is dying...and a little more awakened to wisdom and sanity before its too late. forgiveness issues at the end of life illuminate the challenges of the lifelong human condition. one thing the dying reminds us of, is not to wait and do all our homework in the 11th hour. and dying is not always something that happens in it's appropriate season anyway. Paul "died daily" for Christ's sake. edited to add...and we grieve in every phase of life. people we know and love (and hate) die (and kill) in every phase of our lives. so end-of-life issues (and skills) apply every day. and even if we are not immediately dying, we experience the loss of a large part of our lives as if we or someone we know has already died. physical death is but one kind of it.

thanks everyone for the contributions. all of them. so many points...so many directions to go with this topic. yeah...Karen Armstrong's is a much needed voice in the world. and the Charter for Compassion...yeah, much can be said about that. as ive written about here often, i find that one of the most important and revealing (and challenging to bring up) ways to view the problems and gifts of religion, especially the Abrahamic, is through a "developmental" lense. once we can at least acknowledge the developing nature of human worldviews, we may be able to begin to understand why we are interpreting the same information so many conflicting ways. we may even begin to get a clearer idea where our own worldview is trying to go, and what is stopping us from going there, which is as important, if not more, than what anyone else is doing. yet, odd as it may seem, one of the primary obstacles to a more developmental worldview often comes from the compassionate worldview...as if pointing out patterns of development is somehow unloving, or untrue. yet, rejecting development in the name of compassion is a contradiction and a hypocrisy. yet, like the Charter for Compassion attempts to do, development can begin to be addressed without abandoning compassion at all. although that does not guarantee the response/reaction will be loving or kind. i would even go as far as to say that a very practical common ground that all 3 have shared in their better histories is a recognition of the very important need for development...and many of the rites of passage and other rituals and practices of the abrahamic religions actually served to stimulate development of the moral and cognitive imaginations from stage to stage to stage...as well as the development of greater degrees of compassion, sanity, and wisdom.

been pondering this thread some more... one of my favorite subjects is art interpretation, which applies to music and literature, as well as anything else in the universe, including scriptural ARTifacts. asking "what is scripture?" is somewhat like asking "what is art?" ...or "what does art mean?" ...and the different ways the art question has been answered may shed light on the different ways the scripture question is answered. ... some argue that art means what the artist intended. some argue that art is the result of the unconscious desires of the artist. some argue that art is the result of the cultural and historic background through which the artist came to be in the world. some argue that art is the act of making art...the skill and behavior involved in producing the artifact. some argue that art is the art...the arrangement and composition of the materials. some argue that art is what the viewers say the art is...the critics and society's response. some argue that art continually unfolds in history, adding layers upon layers of meaning and context. some argue that everything is art, and art is just a word in language. some, like myself, argue that art is all of the above. same with scripture.

just posted this on the other forgiveness thread.... ... doesnt surprise me that few can recall an occasion where twi's highest leadership asked for forgiveness. it was another one of those vital aspects of historical Christian doctrine and practice that was taken to the dump. forgiveness was mostly reduced to a supernatural power, and mostly in the context of us being personally forgiven by our image of a distant God. after that, forgiveness mostly flowed uphill towards leaders and husbands. ... fwiw...in the fields of hospice, the pain of unforgiveness is like the common cold of end of life issues...a form of grief. although, for some, the final pain is more about meaning, belonging or hope. but like all such things, the fire only gets hotter as "the day of the lord" nears. oftentimes, it becomes the last thing in the way of a peace-filled dying experience. like a flaming sword blocking the way back to eden...or a lake of fire between us and paradise. but whether or not someone forgives themselves or anyone else seems like their cross to bear. mostly. ... imho, if we can ever re-connect scripture with the end-of-life contexts they were most likely generated in, we may also reconnect with the arts and practices that "spiritual midwives" have developed over the millenia for all such conditions. like how Jesus said 70x7, or life review exercises, shadow work, music and art therapy, etc... ... and if we also could find ways to help people stop doing things that are nearly impossible for others to forgive...it would be like preventative medicine. otherwise, we create emergency situations where forgiveness is much more difficult...even passed on for generations.

doesnt surprise me that few can recall an occasion where twi's highest leadership asked for forgiveness. it was another one of those vital aspects of historical Christian doctrine and practice that was taken to the dump. forgiveness was mostly reduced to a supernatural power, and mostly in the context of us being personally forgiven by our image of a distant God. after that, forgiveness mostly flowed uphill towards leaders and husbands. ... fwiw...in the fields of hospice, the pain of unforgiveness is like the common cold of end of life issues...a form of grief. although, for some, the final pain is more about meaning, belonging or hope. but like all such things, the fire only gets hotter as "the day of the lord" nears. oftentimes, it becomes the last thing in the way of a peace-filled dying experience. like a flaming sword blocking the way back to eden...or a lake of fire between us and paradise. but whether or not someone forgives themselves or anyone else seems like their cross to bear. mostly. ... imho, if we can ever re-connect scripture with the end-of-life contexts they were most likely generated in, we may also reconnect with the arts and practices that "spiritual midwives" have developed over the millenia for all such conditions. like how Jesus said 70x7, or life review exercises, shadow work, music and art therapy, etc... ... and if we also could find ways to help people stop doing things that are nearly impossible for others to forgive...it would be like preventative medicine. otherwise, we create emergency situations where forgiveness is much more difficult...even passed on for generations.

fwiw...to some, the psalms are music. as ive mentioned around here before...christians, muslims, and jews sung and harped them for the ill, dying and grieving in europe's first hospital/hospice system. each psalm contains a vital corresponding mood. also, some christians, muslims and jews consider their scripture to have a full "staff" of interpretations possible.

yeah, tragedy. and grief. much is being lost and forgotten about the 3. and much can be remembered. if some have found common ground before, could it not be the same common ground we find now? if so, how do we keep forgetting? how do we keep from forgetting? and how might we remember? imho, any effort to "re-illuminate" the better histories of the three will go a long way to helping us find our way through this wild mess. not that we stop illuminating the tragedies. no, we illuminate them even more...and compare them to the better histories for even more clarity and direction. edited to add... which is more or less what you did by telling that story, Abi...illuminated us with a better story. big thanks.

A thread for doctrinal/religious/theological/spiritual discussions regarding the three branches of the Abrahamic religions.

fwiw...i am finding that it is true...if you pick tomatoes when they are green-yellowish to orangish and put them in a paper sack they will ripen in the sack quite well over the next week or so. Putting a banana in the sack helps with the process. Also, every time you pick a tomatoe, the rest of them ripen faster. So you basicaly get more tomatoes out the season. Same with squash. I am finding that if you pick them while they are smaller, you will get more. btw...squash blossoms are edible, and scrumptious....chop em into salads, sandwiches, chilis, breads...

i think so, Roy. hats are perfect. and how hats can indicate a perspective, or a voice, or a role...or a nimbus, or a halo. reminds me...how a dear friend of mine who is a nun told me she wears her habit in public so people know she is a nun.

on the flip side...and there always seems to be a flip side... ...seems to me that the sooner we can somehow find our way out of magical and mythical denial and avoidance of it...the longer we have to live in light of it...perhaps even paradoxically resulting in longevity...and even "medical miracles" and cures...especially if our acceptance of it gets beyond merely cynical or apathetic...and we are otherwise lucky enough to wake up to the nature of the oldest illusion...free to respond to the radical grace of our immediate and constant situation.

fwiw...while i dont fully agree with Becker, Denial of Death is perhaps one of the most important and revealing works on this topic. Sobering view of the times. Joe Campbell's Monomyth is another.

mmm...go socks fwiw...in english alone, some have identified up to 12 ways we use "spirit" and "spiritual." not all of them in a religious context. overall...i find all such confused words become more useful as words as we get more of an idea of how someone is using them. same is true for other common multi-used words like God Love Sex Hate Death Evil Good Hell Heaven etc... so often people argue for/against the merits of a word before clearly defining it. all along, the thing being named exists prior to and in spite of the words we find to tell our story of it. ... also...friends of mine who teach forms of "spirituality" in the east and west have noticed that they dont have a word quite like it in the East. Things like sleeping, dreaming, waking up, gardening, eating, pooping are "spiritual"...and to be "spiritual" is simply to be. as if, to the more nondual worldviews, "spiritual" is an extra word added by more dualistic worldviews. ... i like tents too... like Moses...whose design showed the very center of our self in God is in a tent in a tent in a tent in a tent in a tent in a tent in a tent in a wilderness. similar to the multi-colored layers of garments of jacob...or the pure math of unfolding nests of petals...aka "flowers of the field." some buddhists have described many "sheathes" of consciousness...where a large part of waking up to who we have always been can be seen as losing layers. in developmental psychology...this might be described as those major shifts in life where "subject" becomes "object"...and where what was once "the position we are observing from" becomes "the thing being observed." Like when we sucked on our toes as babes, not knowing we are the toes. Then when we realize our body, our face...we lose one more unknown...who we are moves one tent deeper, one mansion closer to the center of our experience of God. Happens again when we notice our feelings inside of our body. Once we do, we no longer experience life from the point of view of those feelings ("I am angry"), but those feelings are now in our experience as things ("I am feeling angry inside of my body"). Same with thoughts, dreams, and many other things we do not know we are yet...like egos. This becomes more and more important and evident as we age. For the first time we have many many changes to observe and compare, the geography of many layers have been added to the discard pile as "who we think we are" continues to move. some describe the process like this...the center of our self moves ever deeper into the center of this "tabernacle of many robes"...even as the outer bounds of our sense of self expands outward beyond our body, to include our family, our culture, our race, and eventually all of life and the world...perhaps even beyond. as if the first shall be last...and in the end we find that our destination is a home we never left in the first place. sounds like good news to me.

fwiw...you might like Teresa of Avila's visions of mansions teachmevp...and anyone. It seems the Bible and Judeo-Christian history is rich with comparing the soul to houses, mansions, temples and other forms of architecture. As if the much of the groundwork for much of what we call psychology was laid in monasteries and convents. Avoidance and demonization of these contemplative dimensions of Judeo-Christianity is perhaps one of the most severe flaws of VPW/PFAL/TWI and ilk. As if we traded our direct experience of our very own soul's development for a story about God that is mostly outside of our selves and somewhere else but here. Some of the best news i've ever heard is that the soul responds a thousandfold to our inquiry and attention.

oops, seems i forgot "none of the above" before "all of the above"..."zen before tantra" if one was to compare eastern words. if we ever all make it back through the fire to eden...seems it will at least involve us remembering food is beautiful medicine and the earth is a vast but finite garden. ...and trees of good and evil are not evil, just toxic to humans...and we do very well to abstain from putting it anywhere near our mouths. which, imho, points to the nondual and nonviolent visions and voices of Christian and non-Christian history and today.

i vote for #5...confused.

i once somehow found my self believing nothing about HC in spite of its existence. then i somehow found my self believing that HC is/was mostly about supernatural power. then i somehow found my self believing that HC is/was mostly about eternal membership. then i somehow found my self believing that HC is/was mostly about religious history. then i somehow found my self believing that HC is/was mostly about social inclusion. then i somehow found my self believing that HC is/was mostly about food and medicine. i now somehow find my self believing that HC is/was mostly about all of the above. and that God is both musical and a gardener...and everything already always belongs.

thanks, Pax. sounds like a wonderful way to go. and not only would i add sustainable food/land/resource-management, but consider how Jesus's "new deal" for his students may have involved the end of eating herbivores and most other animals. "this is my meat...this is my blood...remember this every time you eat..." may be a powerful dietary statement...and the reason why Paul connected it directly to health. to be "washed in the blood of the lamb" may have less to do with metaphysical or 'spiritual' or psychological change, and more to do with a real embodied transformation by way of a disciplined and devoted lifestyle (which then includes psychological, spiritual, metaphysical, etc...) the 'idols' of "eating animals sacrificed to idols" may be humanity. and it may be that while Jesus was for everyone in many ways, the transformative lifestyle he was asking of his students was quite specific, and quite radical, and very few chose it. But while 'eternal life' is not dependent on such a 'diet of consciousness' (thank God), or becoming a student of Jesus, the quality of the world we leave in our wake certainly does.

While i agree that the progressive view of communion is a huge and vital step towards realizing anything close to the scope of "peace on earth good will towards all"...but it seems there are even more steps possible...but steps that cannot be taken until that radical human inclusivity is first introduced. And imho, a next step possible after a progressive view communion is an even more whole-istic view of communion…where we not only connect the dots between food and medicine, but between human diet and the well-being of the rest of life on earth…and this includes the quality of the air, water and soil. In other words, it is progress if everyone can eat, but even more so if everyone can eat in a way that prevents both illness and the desertification of the earth. edited to add...and i cant help but feel that if Jesus was trying to imbed a better way to live in the language and imagination of the world...it at least included such ecological and medicinal concerns.

fond of Plotinus and Juan...and while i cant agree with the "nothing but ritualized cannibalism...as practiced by the great majority of" parts...finding it refreshing to read glimpses of a bold and developed progressive view of Communion around here. Wondering...can you elaborate on what you mean by "ancient vision of God's feast" and "ancient schemes turned to modern dreams"?

amen. so gut wrenchingly tragic to me how opposite so much of the twi-experience was and is. it seems that ministers who lack the capacity to navigate suffering and loss cause as much, if not more, than they avoid. my constant prayer is how we can turn this lead into gold. and...if i may add...it seems to me that the deeper we move into those mysteries, the more we will understand as the edges of our mysteries move. which is perhaps why the same ancient books are always being interpreted (and applied) in such a wide range of ways. but it seems to me that the states of consciousness in aging, illness and dying and such are the foundational territory of the Judeo-Christian heritage...and the contents of scripture are highly responsive to such contexts...and these better arts and histories in Judeo-Christianity can go a long way to heal the consequences of having demonized and avoided them for so long.

oh my. more so than anything i have ever read in a decade at the gsc, the opening post of this thread not only touches and illuminates somewhere near or at the very root of "how things like twi/vpw/pfal happen in life"...but also offers an antidote. much gratitude Arrow. reminds me of those fields where the harvest is plentious...the laborers are few...where things like redemption and atonement and forgiveness are no longer words for mythological powers we are looking for, but words for very real and extra ordinary experiences we are having. btw...some are of the opinion that Job simply died in the original story. And the magical ending was added for the same reasons we prefer that it remain. And Elihu was an original chaplain. As if dying is enlightening enough for anyone...so do it well. And whatever one thinks it is, this ordinary human will to live can be quite resilient...enough so that there is a kernal of truth in VPW's end of belief statements...in spite of how he interpreted it. Such as how some people defy odds for years simply because they are waiting for someone or something...then suddenly die when it happens. Like how some people live in comas for years, stuck in an inner loop, then sometimes even die even though they resolve the loop and come out of the coma.