sirguessalot

my 2 cents on the subject... in the OT, there were originally only 10 rules. but naturally, an ocean of rules evolved out of this newly recovered but ignorant people. ignorant of their own lineage. ignorant even of the wisdom and spiritual understanding of their own patriarchs. and most of the new rules were regarding strictly physical behaviour. what else could they see at this time, right? but some later started to realize that all those rules regarding physical behaviour were limited, contrary, and only really served to keep a lineage alive long enough to evolve beyond their own personal stone age. in other words, saving physical crude baby Israel from itself from becoming extinct. like a training wheel, a temporary evolutionary control factor i would dance in my underwear in the streets if i realized this too. the next step for these people was to learn more effective rules. and to shed those training wheels. of course, that is gonna take a long time, relatively. i would also praise the future advent of this turning point, even though its obviously beyond my own physical lifetime. and then ok, sure, Paul, after his enlightening, in the NT, warns against this man-on-man club, too. but he was no longer warning against the mere physical sexual aspect of it. but against the homosexuality of the soul. homosexuality of public policy. the homosexuality of business models. the homosexuality of our habits and desires. the homosexuality of religious thought and idealogy and behaviour. because the soul drives the flesh, not the other way around. and so it can cause much more damage and suffering in both worlds. and so what does homosexuality of the soul look like? (beside some Hellenic boy giving another a flower) how can we rationally associate this homo-sexuality of Romans with murder, rape, kidnapping? and what is this strange homosexuality that risks the health and safety and well-being of the world? imo, it looks like war, oppression, tyranny, slavery, greed...duh Kings of the earth, as prisoners of their own nature (and so forgiven) because the masculine process is about competition and control, not cooperation and communion(both of which have their own wonderful place in each of us and in all of us...but only if if they learn how to dance). if that single-minded half of the mind is allowed to dominate our society, our systems, our decisions and morals...it will rise high and fall hard. it knows not the art of cooperation and communion (except as a secondary thing) and to make it worse, if women are forced to adopt this strictly competitive stance in order to ascend to power in society (see Condaleeza...lol), it truly does become an unnatural state of society. we lose the gift of Eve, yet again. health suffers. healing suffers. economies suffer. children suffer. relationships suffer. all those things the feminine is naturally gifted at. this is the man-on-man club we are warned against infecting a civization = that strictly competitive behaviour as any sort of pinnacle virtue. an eye on top of a pyramid, they depict it. look around, btw...it doesn't work. strict masculinity lauding itself as supreme...is very destructive. when groups of men think they do not need "a women's ways" all that silly emotion and caring and sharing... and so they become like too many T Rex's on the prowl. black and white vision, like a carnivore it has never been good to give such a zealous patriarchy all the keys to all the coffers. and note: feminine is not superior to masculine, but as we learned in eden, masculine is a cripple without her. she helps him meet that which he may never have met otherwise on his own. (and you should know by now, by "he" and "she," i am not talking about physical sexuality of the human body, but the forms of being that manifest it...those angels in heaven who do not need a wedding ceremony. ;)-->) there seems, a lesson all men must learn to learn. but a lesson most women mostly already intuitively get. thanks for listening blessings and peace

ok...up late thinking had some live energetic late night chat tonight i just love the live nature of it (inspired rant alert) in pondering the differences between our usual more natural, unplanned, accidental ways of discussion.... ...and radically freer modes of dialogue, with grace and ease and openness being the conscious ground and intent. * one is ascending. with various uphill thrusts against gravity. we naturally compete, we climb, we struggle to find the words and navigate the trees of language, we strive and work hard for clarity and/or control. we seek outcome after outcome. like so many wonderful birds in the trees chirping to be heard. * the other is more of a descending mode. a freefall. where we simply jump from our highest sense of being (alone or together). no effort. a non-effort, really. a drop. perhaps even a drop guided by wind and wings. we'll know best where to land when as we get there. truths pour off the tongue of course, to choose one mode over the other as somehow superior is natural...but limited. because its the very dance and romance of eros and agape that moves within us. and the very same dance that we move within ascension and descension work together, or not at all together or not at all a serpent rising and a dove coming down we all favor one over the other at times we may even despise one but this is the inner enmity to be removed if we really want to learn to fly then it will naturally fade in the outer world, of course. as our intentions change. and our perceptions. the higher you climb, the higher from which you can fall, and the higher from which you fall, the deeper you can dive and now add those circles. those ripples and waves of all the meez and yooz and themz. like overlapping raindrops on a pond and...every level of both ascension and descension has their outspreading planes and waves like so many gowns on a goddess, or some magical holy city from above, or cloaks of many colors what a tabernacle that is a universal temple made without hands one big book these, the overlapping wings of our collective soul, have height potentials width potentials depth potentials length potentials in and out and up and down flesh is the reflection of this soul not the other way around but how often do we curse the flesh? and damn all its many sins and consquences to our own personal hells? if so, flesh must be all we can see or we would know what really causes what and we'd see that highly animate and charged living thing full of countless eyes and stop calling it a strange otherly creature even at a mere glance, a brilliantly blindingly burning bush enough to make a man wander a long while wondering what to do next if this is a singular holy self that is ever-present... if this is the united universal presence we call most anointed is there not a way we can see it now? it is here, is it not? right now? as we speak? as we breathe? why cant we see it? what is in the way? and who is it that really wants to know? what part of us is seeking a peek at their own true face? if even only a little taste of twinkle of a blink? like a downpayment. or unforgettable glimpse and so what unused eyelids might have yet to open? and how can we open them, so we stop reacting to the illusion as if it were real? and perhaps finally see with our own eyes, those tongues like as of fire touching each and every one of us? and hear that mighty breath fill the temple? as it always has, from the beginning? why oh why, after all these millenia, do we still look up in the clouds waiting for Jesus to come. after all, he is coming from heaven the very same way he entered, no? and not another? and so which way is that? which smallest narrowest place did he enter? cuz it is written...there is where we will see him return and from nowhere else and all eyes will see him some day ;)--> sometimes i think what finally dawned on the pentecost crowd...was that we do not have to wait til "death do us part" before we can learn to feed each other with these 6-foot chop-sticks.

welcome, Steve! Def, not sure which station it was, or who was speaking, but...its seems to be in stark contrast to what experts in the energy industry and such are saying also, sadly, cutting back on individual gasoline consumption is like peeing in the ocean, when it comes to all our modern overall petro addictions. I mean, look around at the stuff, right now, in your home and work, and ask yourself how much oil and plastic and related went into designing, making, marketing, distributing, repairing, disposing of, etc... estimates are that 4 of every 5 dollars we spend on things like food, shelter, medicine, clothing and entertainment is due to currencies' relationship to oil but, An individual can do a lot towards free themselves of the oil-energy dependence. But not much civilization can do, or will do, it seems

i hear ya. i guess i was kinda thinking along the lines of: if you are CM at the gsc, it might help to be CM in the session

lol...not sure what yer askin, Steve. is the opposite of... Maybe a slip of the keyboard? regardless...heerz some eye-opening stats: ...in order to use oil, you first have to search for it, drill it, extract it, transport it, refine it, and distribute it. Each step requires oil-powered machinery. The ratio between how much energy it takes to acquire and amount of oil and how much energy is contained in oil is known as "Energy Return on Energy Invested" (EROEI). Kinda like how an indian had to eat buffalo in the morning before going buffalo hunting, regardless of how successful he was. EROEI was 5 to 1 in the 90s. Once the ratio hits 1 to 1, oil will be thermodynamically useless. Dick Cheney, 1999: "By some estimates, there will be an average of 2% annual growth in global oil demand over the years ahead, along with, conservatively, a 3% natural decline in production from existing reserves. That means by 2010 we will need an order of an additional 50 million barrels a day." Oil producing nations are pumping at full capacity (about 80 million per day), hence, Prince George's inability to prod the Saudis or anyone else. According to a January 2004 report in Petroleum Review, the discovery rate for mega projects (those which contain more than 500 million barrels or about a one week supply) has now dwindled to nothing. In 2000, 16 mega projects were discovered. In 2001 there were 8. In 2002 there were 3. In 2002, there were none. Nowadays, a 200 million barrel discovery is huge, and gets press attention. But don't forget, the world uses 80 million a day. And once a find is made, it takes about 5-7 years for production to come online. and 2000 was the last decent year for big finds. The Saudis have a saying: "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet airplane. His son will ride a camel." For what its worth...i hope the info helps as much as it also kinda sucks... peace

lol...Abi that's a keeper if you don't mind, on a more serious note re: the energy crisis and the end of the oil age: an simple example of what has happened: back in the 70s, it cost about 1 barrel of oil to get about 30 (there is an acronym for this ratio). But now, its more like 1 to get 3. when we reach 1 to 1... in previous decades, it was a matter of increasing production to adjust the global energy currency (which is trying (often violently) to shift from Dollar to Euro). And now, everyone is more or less already at peak production now (but shhhh...;)-->) the energy brokers themselves have been anticipating this petro-chemical tsunami for a long time, and so needless to say, they are not in much of a crisis whatsoever. they are chowing down like kings of the earth on the dynamic of the crash. popping champagne and such. the ole' fiddles and smoke, if ya know what i mean some circles even theorize that increasing the rate of consumption of resources may even lessen the gravity of "what comes crashing down." Though a horrific idea, they may be technically "correct." for those interested, email or PT me, and/or Google up what Jared Diamond (writer of "Guns, Germs, and Steel") and ilk are writing lately about the various global and local ramifications of "peak oil". but i warn ya, this subject really is a blue pill/red pill kinda situation, imo. imo, it seems individual and local post-conventional adaptation is more likely to be effective than the more conventional global or national interests and efforts. though, obviously, some countries and cultures are more resistant to this shift than others. peace,

ok...howz this...? *this Saturday afternoon at 6pm EST *doctrinal room of the GSC chatroom *all are welcome, coming and going at whim, or even if just to observe (and if someone disrupts too much, the dialogue will simply not happen like it could. and so tomorrow is another day...). in form, i think it would be easiest to use a variation on the "talking piece" style (as in the peer spirit link), where we take turns, but not in a simple pre-arranged circular order. but more like raising hands to speak next maybe like this.... *i'll start typing with something short n simple like "why i am in this circle today." *at anytime while i am writing, whomever wants to go next types something like "next," which holds their place in line. *when i am done, i'll type something like "done," and the next person in line can start whenever they like (moments of silence for gathering composure and throat clearing and such are common at this point, even in chat, i imagine) and, for this first session, if no one minds, i'll play the role of host or keeper or whatever...meaning: i'll jump in and out when and where i think the process needs any kind of help (more like the kids who fetch the tennis balls and stage-hands who dart about in the shadows). (But i also bet a zil that there are some hosts and hostesses way more gifted than i out there) ;)--> and prior to the session, i hope we can pull together a small list of a half-dozen or so more primers to engage thru-out the evening. and as far as recording this trial session...maybe we can play it by ear. maybe a designated lurker can paste throughout. if the subject gets too personal, and someone wants to keep it private before they'll participate (or something), i can honor that if everyone else can. (besides, the imprint on the pages of the epistles of our souls will be deep enough anyway, imo) i also think a level of openness and transparency with IDs and handles (at least for those engaging in the dialogue) help the process greatly. (not that some sort of anonymous rave mask-charade chat in the dark wouldn't be interesting... ) ok, i probably forgot a few things... thoughts? (is this beginning to remind anyone of a deeper way of 1 Cor 14?)

...i hope so, friend (as long as you also promise to spill like Wilson during some critical lull in the episode...) :P--> :D--> i have this feeling that we might leap and flop and flip and flounce and bounce a bit thru the process at first (which is gonna be fun and funny), but, if/as we play with "it" and catch on, we'll start generating and customizing our own new myriad forms (and in way more than just doctrinal yakity yak) ...and so there'll be plenty more drops and ripples...like so many drops of rain making circles over circles in waves of our collective soul... And heerz something from one the links i think will help keep things plum: (Picture me as some carpenter tool fanatic, saying "hey neighbor, check out these schazzy gizmos!") how this can apply in online arenas is the newer trick, i guess (especially in the context of faith, spirit, religion and such) i think some sort of focal point and tempo elements (like from the World Cafe and Wisdom Circles links) can compliment the more "chaotic" OpenSpace models in chat and forums

ok, i gotta tell you guys a nifty story that kind of illustrates the potency of the circle. This Christmas, we had the wife's parents and step parents (=4), and a few brothers (hers and mine). All K basically did was pick up a snowman ornament and explain that "we'll pass it around, and whomever holds the ornament gets to speak as long as they want and no one should interrupt." The primer was "What this Christmas means to me," and K demonstrated simply by going first. I tell ya, the way everyone so naturally opened up was amazing to me (and ive seen some pretty crazy ****). And also, considering the usual parent and step-parent anti-chemistry...this was a real treat. :)--> It was like seeing everyone and self in a rare but simpler light. Of course this sort of thing is at the heart of most common traditions, tho we may have never had words or understanding to explain why we are so fond of all those potent memories and communal experiences. but, imo, we also seem to be forgetting its value as so much of society continues this runaway train of hyper-spasmodic activity. But its when we "go in with eyes open" that turns it from happy accident to finer and more effective art forms

ltns karmic! (btw, your presence is already a cup of tea...strange brews that we are...he he) very cool, sharon. (& thanks for the reminder of her, too) :)--> ok, i combed the thread and edited the second post kinda with whatever anyone said about date and time and formats and such and, if/as we pull this off, we can edit that info as we go along (which is another aspect of style, i guess, of this whole/hole space-opening dialogue concept thingymajig anyway...the idea of using live timed turn-based (or other-based) sessions with only a cyber-forum, and by reserving the first fews posts for invitations and summations) there are many styles, too. historically and emerging. especially now, it seems. some even pray and/or meditate prior to a cyber and/or meatspace session...almost like so many 3rd millenium “pentecost parties” goin off at once (and in overlapping concentric circles to boot). a bit like cracking open some layer off the human language, imo even now, amidst all the deepening bull****, there are doomed to be stubbornly symmetrical wonders like this one (thank the almighty anything). and intertwined quite nicely, i might add ok, i’ll be back in a bit with some more info and thoughts

from moment to moment to moment breath to breath to breath as the eye flickers so does it all is this not the book of life? just this, as it is? naked and holy from page to page to page in every season and cycle in every stage of the game start here stand here first sit here first then unfold fertile ground of being the rise and the fall oceanic depth just as it is eternally now eternally new is this not the way? the burning tree? the holy trinity? the tao? everpresent even in our sleep wide open space this, we can rely upon all else rises from here all else is seen and felt and heard from here mysteriously somehow is this not universal? is this not a holy book? holy clarity blessed be amen ;)-->

lol. i can see why yer gun-shy with aol, abi I'll can set up the yahoo and try it out we can set up a PM to share the IMs or something or...there is a doctrinal chatroom set up right now at GSC chat. I just tested it.. :)-->

Reminds me of a documentary on the Shakers I saw a few years back. They were down to something like 7 very old women left in the whole religion.

ya know, i wonder... if God is Love, as the scriptures claim... is then Love also God?

And i think one of the main differences between many traditional approaches and what i've suggested, is much like the difference between water baptism and fire baptism. One cleans what's there. The other simply vaporizes it. Both have their place, imo. But with obviously very different levels of results.

I've never used Yahoo, CM, but i can set it up easy enough. And as much as i try and stay away from AOL, i love their AIM. And Danny, i'm always game to chat if you wanna fiddle with it a bit before whatever is gonna happen happens... lemme know...:)-->

:)--> Cool. What about an evening on the weekend? This or the next? And Abi, yer reading my mind re: the private chat and other IMs ;)--> I was thinking we could either address a problem or explore something new, both of which these p2p-type dialogues is a highly effective tool (like at the forums, but allowing for our more live and immediate intuitions to mingle). And so, what sort of primers can you guys think of? I'm thinking things simple like... "How valuable is (or not) spiritual dialogue?" "How valuable is (or not) spiritual change?" "How do we choose spiritual standards?" "How might the various religious views get along?" Some of the ole' troublemakers, no? ;)-->

ok, a brief rant...not picking on ya Jerry, just using your useful arguments to further things... Neither do I, Jerry. But I have even found that a much more inclusive intersubjective approach is even wiser than which you suggest. Is it possible that the sequence might also apply to the writers' (and readers') own sequence of unfolding awareness and understanding of the experience? Of course this would seem clear to you. Especially if you have never experienced much of the sort of thing that the Bible folks were writing of...what else could you believe? Most all your hope is still in the future, no? I would. Which is why the path is narrow. Our mortallity always flinches and hides from things like pain and darkness and death. Inwardly as much as outwardly. We must learn to burn bright in the darkest places, no? if we seek... a flaming sword that turns every way a burning bush that is not consumed a baptism of fire... ...that daystar will indeed arise in our hearts and burn our mortal sense of self to dust. We will no longer identify with body and mind alone, but something greater. Spirit is no longer a figure of speech but that face we finally see in the mirror. Just as our physical birth, our new birth is an unfolding of many parts and stages. All that we manifest outwardly is based on this state of being, and whatever it is that is our deepest level of identification. And theoretically, i guess, if this would to happen within most everyone in the world...well, we'd have an outer manifestation of the inner Christ most everywhere at once. I mean, who needs a man in a white cape on a flying horse to slay all the ten-headed dragons when humanity itself is finally and simply learning to be what that guy demonstrated? A better view of that same old burning I AMness..the one that blocks us from getting "back to Eden..." ok, a suggestion to float... An inner individidual interpretation of scriptural figures, including past present and future expressions. An outer individual interpretation of scriptural figures, including past present and future expressions. An outer collective interpretation of scriptural figures, including past present and future expressions. An inner collective interpretation of scriptural figures, including past present and future expressions. ...especially with regard to the huge figurative murals of visual language like the Bible's famous Book of Revelation (which was most likely written with this many-fold frame in mind). Just be sure to take off yer shoes, i guess... ;)-->

Hi, Jerry. Do you think they can be both subjective and objective? Both inner and outer meanings to the scriptures?

possible platforms: *GSC Chatroom (open to gsc observation) *Yahoo IM (a lil less gsc-oriented) possible timings: *saturday evening or day *sunday afternoon *weekday evening likely duration: *possibly quite a few hours with breaks, not to mention general comings and goings, depending on how long the space can be "held" .... Though a live session itself seems the most direct education/demonstration/transmission of the basic and various forms, here are some links on the subject, which i'll update them here as i/we come across them: 4 Principles and 1 Law Peerspirit Openspace Empowered Dialogue Wisdom Circles The World Cafe Co-Intelligence Co-Intelligence in Politics heerz a useful model/mode from CII:

Hey GSCers! Long time, no see. Was wondering if any of yooz spiritual yakity yackers wanna try something old in this, our new cyber context. I’ve been following the cutting edge of an old old conversational dynamic that basically more efficiently taps into our co-intelligence. A way to stimulate the voice of a more collective aspect of soul, if you will. Basically, it goes like this...we simply pick a time and turn a chatroom into a spiritual round-table, of sorts. Throw in a few basic subjects and some sort of simple metering framework (like taking our time and taking turns to foster respect and such), and then coupled with the live and more immediate nature of chat, we are sure to experience something quite rare in today’s spiritual conversations. Something a bit more naked than usual. We move from a pyramid to a stonehenge, in a sense. A round table. ...simply by somehow "holding an open space" Kinda like what we are doing with the forums, but without the delay. In a sense, we build a temple and destroy it in one sitting (so as to avoid the usual hardening of the circle) Whomever is present is perfect. And lurking is welcome. Any interest? Thoughts?

hi all heerz another interesting link on the subject

Quackery

a few links from that Google The Noetic Cafe Ethics in the clinical practice of integral medicine A 60-Second Guide to Integral Medicine

:)--> Hi All, I'm embarking on yet another hair-brained life-morphing adventure in less than 48 hours from now, during which I'm gonna be cut off from the web and email and such for who knows how long (except for what cyber-nibbles I can muster along the way). But before I leave, I thought I'd dare to post a link to what I think is possibly one of the most emergent approaches to medicine in the world today...full of many new possibilities, and very worth keeping our eye on and supporting its development...Integral Medicine My quick take on it... First, to get anywhere new in medicine...conventional and post-conventional medicines need to somehow snap out of their present cocktail of existentialist nightmare, disfunctional politico-business models, and academic, social and cultural prides and taboos and such...perhaps even finally more fully redeeming the many many miracles of modern science and technology and medicine and emergency medicine for the actual well-being of all One of the hold-ups, it seems, is how gross-realm medicine so often gets stuck in its own gifts, and to the extreme end of seeing and treating only the illness (and not really the patient), and often by trying to simply add and subtract things as good and bad. Also, how so many of the harmful results of convential medicine seem to stem from most things being done primarily for the doctors' and hospitals' and lawyers' convenience (as opposed to the patients')...heck, even the Bible warns against this rather low ministerial center of gravity in the OT and NT Meanwhile, so many of the holistic, retro, very retro and "alternative" practioners would do good to snap out of their own mixtures of panacea-trances and cultic and occultic cabals and old-fashioned loathings of anything new and tekkie (especially if and when poverty and illness increases and all the best stuff in conventional medicine gets harder and harder to reach). The gift of the truly holistic and such (not merely labelled or just plain-ole watered-down versions) is how it specializes more in preventative, and treats the patient as a whole of many parts, often neither adding nor subtracting, but by simply opening, unblocking, unravelling, and untangling mostly what is already there, and often using very free and easy things (like bodywork, breathwork and mindwork) and very cheap simple household and garden-variety things (such as foods, herbs and lifestyle). By integrating the diversity of values from conventional with the diversity of values found in all those many many old and old, old-school and new and new, new-school healing arts and other loony things like folk medicine, shamanism, eastern traditions, and even "wierder"...our co-intelligent processes and modes of feedback might actually shift into a radically higher gear in the field of medicine. Something I'm sure we'd all like to see. But this way of medicine not only merely integrates the values of all approaches, but perhaps even more importantly, it starts by treating the physicians themselves ;)--> and by supporting and developing more open and efficient and effective styles and ways of interdisciplinary dialogue...which quite dangerously seem to be getting harder and harder to do in some places. And too, sadly enough, it appears that most of the mighty US is already among the slower-pokes in this very vital and very happening renaissance in well-being. And so, I guess... If it sounds worth doing so, look into it, read up on it, ask your doctors about it (although, most likely only a few doctors will have even heard of "integral medicine," or will even be interested. But keep in mind, that even 1% or .1% of ten-million doctors is still a lot of doctors. And also, how some are already intuitively going there somewhat successfully on their own and calling it whatever they need to.) And, IMO, there is no reason to be afraid to follow that white rabbit...and no, not as thru layer after layer of deception and impossibility, but as thru layer after layer of budding partial truths and ever-greater possibility I'm not an expert on much. But I've seen a wide variety of miracles in my life, and I also know a lot of sick people I am very worried about. Something has gotta change. My hope is that we will all know greater how to both live and die with grace. Peace and love and much blessings,