sirguessalot

a note for those who wanna check out the session coming up: the doctrinal chatroom is found off to the right of the regular chatroom. please do not be offended if you are not greeted when you enter, or if someone leaves without all the usual goodbyes. you will also most likely enter smack dab in the middle of someone's many lines of thought, and considering how the chatrooms work, you will obviously miss anything posted prior to your arrival. so be patient. feel free to be slightly disoriented. the basic structure we used last time was this: *when someone is done speaking, they will type "done" when they are done *do not interrupt, unless you want to speak next. then simply type "next" whenever you like. I will keep track if it gets too fast. most of all, i guess, prepare to exercise your patience and listening skills, and perhaps practicing a greater level of mutual respect :)-->

leave it to crazy Paul the mystery man to so artfully weave his understanding of historical/racial/spiritual contexts and spiritual individualism together in his written appeals. there seems little difference (other than obvious things like magnitude and complexity) between how an individual spiritually develops and a race or nation or other group-tapestry develops. and i doubt he even really had to try very hard to pull off such a thing. by this time, it had become second-nature to him. tho, i will agree strongly with this, as it relates to a lot of modern Bible understanding... but also, Paul seems even more thespian in his presentations than most would feel comfortable with. he seems to jump between satire and role-playing a lot. using various forms of irony and wit. and as written form, this has been confusing to a less-than literate audience, as Peter himself wrote of. "ok, imagine you or I am old Israel..." that sort of thing.

and to add...imo, this system of classifying things as good and evil is valid because it is the crude and early form of a useful tool of classifying things, in general. its just that we must naturally start with 2ness before we can get to 3ness and 4ness and 5ness and 6ness and 7ness etc... so the serpent, as man's own inner "climbing thinker," was "on the divine payroll," so to speak, starting from ground zero serpent 1.0, if you will. but not yet the full caduceus of Christ. on a side note..i thought this was really cool:Flying Snakes

i recall that all of creation was considered all good at first, in 7 nested layers of goodness, if you will. the serpent was there and lucifer was there, good and wonderful, within the nature of man and creation. and this tree of good and evil was a valid thing to eat from. even though somehow encouraging a system of classifying things as good or evil was contrary to the deeper truth...that all things are inherently good. how else we gonna learn to "live forever" unless we learn to die to the flesh? and so, to systematically classify things into categories of good and evil was to put a bullet in the head of the classifier. as planned. naturally. as one sees the world in such black and white terms (rather than the full wonderful spectrum it already always is), one is konked over the head and put to sleep...and the soul is more or less dead to the truth of self. dead to the truth of others. unable to unravel mysteries in a strictly good/evil context. we become pretty much unconcious to the deeper truths of what causes what, and why things happen, and why people behave so crazily and/or wonderfully...simply because we make the mistake of calling things good and evil...when there is no such dichotomy, except as an illusion to be removed (which makes the illusion as true as anything else...a true lie, if you will) to somehow remove this enmity is the next step. get back to the pure garden of thought, a pure ground of being that was good from the start. and it is right here, right now, in spite of all the hate. this process of becoming free of that illusionary good and evil classifying system is that path we inherently seek. that reconciliation with God. that lifting up of the serpent. "oh lucifer, how art thou fallen?" does not apply to a being out there somewhere. and so we are to become disciples of this good news. not disciples of bad news. though even good news may seem like bad news at times, depending on the perspective of the listener, of course.

ive looked into theosophy and its history a while ago, though i recall little of it. but from what i do recall, i guess i am somewhat in agreement in some limited sense. but i've never studied theosophy, or been a student of it, if that's what yer askin :)-->

Whomever shows is meant to be there. Lindy. :)--> Howz that for removing the usual yoke of religion, eh? tho id love to see ya there I just wanted to repeat this, because i think it really captures the essence of open space dialogue (or whatever you feel like naming it), and captures the essence of all general good intention. Intending to make peace with "enemies," even to the point of sacrifice if necessary, is a primary quality of the/a prince of peace, no? ... what is different? start here and you'll be stuck with yer stone what is most common? start here and we'll move entire mountains together...especially those doctrinal mountains that have grown up between people after all these millenia tho we can also appreciate the differences as one would appreciate different recipes for bread

the outer book someone else wrote was forgotten, therefore the inner book you wrote was "read." and the summing up was your doing, no? and this is what i was praising, i suppose :D--> cuz believe me, i know how difficult it can be to sum such things up and/or remember where it was originally read or heard

and to add...i think Jesus himself was trying to get folks to think beyond the concept of special magic people as saviours and kings...which pretty much was one of the major problems with "OT" understanding which is perhaps why they freaked out when he simply forgave someone, for example when the spiritual and mundane merge in the obviousness of God, there is no need to wait for a super hero...you already are one is this not universal?

Mark, perhaps its not as much as some magic invocation/evocation of the actual person of "Jesus Christ," but something even simpler...like you said: "accepting the finished work." eventually, someone in human history had to do it. it had less to do with him as some special person, and more to do with what he taught and lived by his freewill choice. Once he understood and expressed "it," "it" had finally been introduced into the stream of history and human understanding, though he himself knew it would be a long time before the whole world would catch on. he knew he was at the arc of a leap of spiritual evolution...being the one who was at and pushing the very edge of this arc of being...and simply knowing why this is is personally transforming, and begins to make you whole

the tenets of Christianity do not line up with the tenets of Christianity, def you have got to realize sooner or later, much of our depictions of Christianity here at the gsc are but more recent sub-developments of many many other things. and all other -isms have the same problem, to varying degrees i think this also, would be a valuable subject for a session of open dialogue

yes, yes, yes, yes, methinks also, can you clarify what you mean by "for," def?

neither sounds fair to me, def and if there is no act that will garner eternal life (as scripture declares), it must simply already be here now, as always, hiding in plain sight, like God is known to do and so simply seeing it is the spiritual birth once we stop grasping and striving

that is one of the quickest, cleanest, smoothest explanations i have read on the subject of "the fall" in our modern Biblical context, Abi. not easy to do. and i thank you for your courage it seems more or less a reversal to what is understood thru PFAL and most fundamental religions and methods. and so no wonder it is often taken as some sort of threatening deception (which seems like a quite natural reaction) and thanks cm, for remembering it and bringing it back to the present

yes...a present-day psalm from the heart ...inspired by 9-11

You never cease to amaze and educate me, oh invisible 1

Interesting, Danny. in some traditions, it is maintained that our generic inner logos, if you will, can and does manifest as an outer being, either in a personal vision, or a collective inner vision. Those glowing angelic encounters being a somewhat more explosive component to our inner nature. Even the various depictions of nimbus's (sp?) and radiating countenances and disco-ball clothing among the scriptures have amazing similarities And so also, often times, such encounters being an obviously higher experience, but not yet highest, there is usually the same mistake made (and so also a useful lesson to be learned) regarding these first "glimpses in the mirror." like mistaking this angelic manifestation as "strictly other." or misunderstanding the experience altogether and starting something cultic or occultic or worse. example: Christ, as the singularity of which Paul is literally a part (like a branch on a vine), illuminates and resounds within Paul to the point of also manifesting thru and outside of Paul. tho, at first, Paul thinks he has met an "other" and "lord," which in a sense are both partially true (our soul being lord of our body). but Paul is not yet aware of the greater deeper wider higher unity of body and soul and spirit and such, and so it takes him years to sort it out (with help)...as with most angelic encounters (except those records of mere wandering wise saintly people who do very good anonymous deeds and move on without reward...and so they are also often considered divine "otherwordly" beings, which again, is partially true) As ive mentioned before, perhaps consider the early chapter imagery of the Book of Revelation as, rather than some otherwordly scene, but a more detailed "publication" of the same thing Paul was teaching (but had only recorded a bit more haphazardly...like from prison). But these visions of "John of Patmos" being a much more detailed and much more updated and sophisticated illustration version of our own inner Christ (possibly the result of a late 1st-century collaboration). A brilliant figurative chart of that which is unborn/yet sleeps within us all, if you will. what im saying...i guess, is that perhaps all these records of angelic beings are simply crude expressions of what turns out to be, like yer getting at...those same manifestions of Christ within. tongues (expressions) of angels (the universal spiritual "strata" within and without). maybe even as crude monolithic jurassic-like manifestations in the earliest ages of human history (like the book of Enoch) and so now, if so, i think that if we can remove the scriptural racial prejudice of this more perrenial form of wisdom...we might "transcend babylon," if you will. begin to trace and compare the spectrum of spiritual experiences via a universal (and thus, truly Christlike) shape and frequency, rather than limiting to the yoke of simple race and canon. as a commons, lifting the common veil

in light of all this, i thought we might benefit from these lyrics, Roy "Overcome" from the Band Live

maybe "God" simply is what is, both inside and out, universally and all inclusive, and lives for untangling the hell that seperates heaven and earth within his very Godness. and does so most specifically through and as us, each as our own gifted logos, our own truest nature, until we eventually learn to rest in peace as both this and the witness of this, and thus recognizing our own true face staring back at us, like a zion of jazzy technicolor dreamcoats waiting to be washed off and unfolded and born, as it always has been from the beginning... and interesting Lindy... compare "death is the last enemy" with "love your enemy" not a twisting of scripture, but an untwisting converting demons to angels being more like unravelling tangles and tongues and knots or how Paul said the seed must die for spiritual understanding to "live?" grim reaper as final gatekeeper? hear am i...pluck me and eat me oh Lord!

Amen, brother Roy Peace and Amen

altho...i am still also very game for an open session of doctrinal discussion re: ways of interpretations and translations and canons and such, if not this weekend, then another. I think it could be just as deeply rewarding

Mark, i know i've mentioned it around here before, but have you ever see an association between "ages" and "Days of the Lord?" Not a linear thing, but the "day-to-day" results of an ongoing revolutionary process, complete with spiritual evenings and mornings and noons and midnights...

thanks for the wb, Belle. yes, Saturday at 6pm EST still sounds groovy to me Abi, i really like the flavor of the primer you suggested: "what rituals do you practice and how do they help you feel/be more spiritually connected?" Because i think an open dialogue of such ways of praxis is sorely needed in this world of mostly-usually-merely interpretation and translation... ...and of mostly-usually-merely spiritual pasts and futures And so maybe, as a momentary One, we can better teach ourselves to practice a greater spiritual presence in the actual present? Maybe we can use something as simple as "spiritual practice" as a primer this weekend? (which can also fully include your wonderful suggestion, Abi) If we can give meaning to ritual, can we not also give ritual to meaning? And if we are to practice what we preach, can we not also preach what we practice? Less like a hard stone temple of old commands...and more like a simple sharing our favorite time-tested recipes of spiritual practice... ..."breaking bread" i think they called it ;)-->

thanks for the feedback, cm and nellie (and welcome to the gsc, nellie) last night was a test run, of sorts, and we kind of just ran with the subject that spilled. and i think the way it so quickly went deep and personal is a testimony to the potency of the dialogue form. it has a tendency to crack us wide open, so to speak. and so it might help to keep this in mind. in other words...try to be somewhat prepared for gears to shift. i am game for another session this weekend. same time, same place. but maybe we can be a bit more specific about what we want to discuss, either before-hand, such as on this thread, or at the start of the session itself (or a mix of both). again, not exactly sure how it will work out, but i am pretty sure it simply will. ;)--> and Song...bring yer cue, i hope to see ya there. its a pretty quick game to learn

wow, that was a treat i thank everyone who participated you are all my teachers (and i hope you can post some sort of review/thoughts here) maybe we can try it again real soon exploring even more subjects and issues :)-->

ok doodleys... see whomever in chat and see how this thing might work there :)-->