sirguessalot

quick reminder in case the info has been buried up yonder.... to find the chatroom... *go to the regular GSC chatroom *look to the right of the screen and click "rooms" *then double click "doctrinal" *if you arrive once it gets going, don't be surprised if the usual greetings dont happen. you'll probably pop in in the middle of someone's thoughts *also, dont be afraid to leave the chatroom without saying googbye. its not rude in this context *thus far, we've developed a simple "talking stick" type of session. whomever is speaking has the floor. when they are done, they type "done." at any time, if you wanna be next, type "next." *also, if you want to ask someone something, you give them the floor, and when they type "done" it comes back to you. and maybe we'll play with some other ideas today but above all, imoae, "play" is one of the most vital elements of being in this process. add to it things like compassion and respect...and we might be onto something old/new

thanks guys and good to see ya ckeer i hear ya about the nice weather keeping us from the ole cyber box at times, Abi. it is gorgeous here. i cant seem to keep myself out of the yard. in fact, speaking of getting out into nature, some others and i hope to expand these kinds of spiritual circle sessions into meatspace this summer: camping trips, hikes, bonfires on the beach, etc... that ole mountain top schticke without all the control (the way it should have been, imo) :)-->

some of my favorites... *where is God? *where is the Devil? *what is a holy book? *spiritual vows and work *spiritual states and stages *trust and spiritual teachers *religion versus spiritual praxis *spiritual work and spiritual play *spiritual simplicities and complexities *biblical/textual/linguistic prejudices and shadows *what are the difference and similarities between prayer and meditation? again...in these sessions, i mostly play the role of space-keeper. and so i'm not nearly as long-winded in the live cyber-salon as i am in these bulletin boards. ;)--> honest (in case anyone is worried about that...i know me ok)

i gotta be honest. the lack of specific participation and interest has got me second guessing the whole thing. tho im sure my own usual haphazard approach and crude descriptions have had a lot to do with it, not to mention poor timing or something. (i'll still be there tomorrow, tho) the way i see it, the development (primarily by way of simply toying with) of these "open space" and "fourth order" kinds of processes can have a deeply positive impact on all of us. personally and collectively. and quite rapidly too. especially in the highly sensitive biblical christian religious contexts. and you've gotta admit, i've made some pretty bold claims regarding this stuff in these contexts. and have even gone as far as to imply that this is another demonstration of those things which "the prophets of old desired to look into." yet another vital element that most modern christianity is sorely lacking in understanding, doctrine and practice. this has been an open invitation to taste of that holy wedding we often say we seek. an open invitation to deepen that spiritual communion we often say we have. and so...am i the only one who is baffled by the lack of feedback, negative or otherwise? is it boring? offensive? too much of a thrill? who can tell? for those regulars who have often said that they are seekers of God and/or guardians and teachers of truth, who are interested but perhaps challenged by some of this stuff: what can i do to help you? i am basically claiming a means and a path for an ascending of sorts. a distinct shift in understanding and praxis of biblical spiritual matters, right here, right now. demonstrable. observable. open to criticism and inquiry. if it is of worthless and of Baal, why not say so? if it has potential to be worth much in our relationship with God...why not inquire? for those who have and have wanted to play along: thank you from the bottom of my heart...i can only say that i could easily spend the next decade or more of my life studying and developing these kinds of means into more coherent and dynamic forms. yes, towards some sort of positive spiritual evolution/revolution and redemption in our oldest truest selves. i can only hope to play a bit more here before i move on to the next stage with it. other venues and such. tho i cherish this place like a sort of childhood stomping grounds please understand if i sound somewhat heartbroken over all this...cuz i kinda am. but not to the shame or blame of anyone either, i hope you see. just the situation. peace,

ok, i'll do it this way...keep it simple: i will be in the doctrinal chat room twice this weekend to facilitate the circle for whomever shows: *sun noon central *sun 8pm pacific ...and we’ll go from here, i guess for a few more thoughts on the process... please allow a moment of boldness and reverie: after further investigation and experience, i will now also go as far to suggest that this form of open dialogue, which i have only barely begun to describe and discover myself, especially as it pertains to matters of religious faith, beliefs, principles and doctrines...represents a distinct and profound upward shift in the potential of human interaction and spiritual communion knowledge and understanding, in general. but no, not the high end of things, but that generic timeless faithful open altar where we can always learn to begin again anew another plateau of human spiritual behaviour, one that opens and cleans and refreshes characterized by number 4 and the heart after all as it is written 4 trumps 3 as communion trumps satan one of the last things the master taught as did Paul and the rest ;)-->

:)--> hi all peeking out from behind a pile of moving boxes not sure what my cyber-situation will be this weekend, but i'll know by this weekend. but feel free to take a stabattit anyway, Abi. or anyone else who saw or has seen how it works. i can also see a role for someone to help orient new arrivals via the private chat also, if/as there is enough interest, maybe we can try holding 2 or more sessions in one evening...for different time zones and schedules and such. maybe a sun noon central and a sun 8pm pacific? or more sessions for different topics, and different "mods" (or "un-mods") (for future reference: i was also fiddlin with the idea of a 3 or 4-round session. where we pick 3 or 4 clear elements or stages of a topic, and then move from component-to-component in the dialogue as we feel we've exhausted them (or everyone present has had a chance to contribute). i think it will make for a longer and more "rich" and detailed experience) (and kinda tricky, i know....but maybe if we get a bit more interest, and a bit more used to the process...something to keep in mind)) and so...topics, anyone? format ideas? spiritual/doctrinal problems/questions/delights/observations to offer on the live altar of we?

those are some really nice licks you got there, song nor do i. it seems anti-christ to me, for a culture or race to somehow try and possess God and so the fruit of such enmity (having been eaten) will also naturally follow amen

yeah, cm, regardless of what is often claimed to have been proven or recorded about his mono-racial/cultural education and practice and beliefs, it seems highly likely that if this kid had some sort of amazing heart and intellect, and was exposed to such a wide variety of things, he would simply see good wherever there was good. endeavoring to see thru shadows. see thru taboos. and it might be natural that, to many of his own race, it would seem as if he was magnifying their culture above all, when perhaps he was more likely trying to redeem it from patriarchal and racial laws, working to re-weave and re-open and reveal the majesty of the spiritual lineage and tradition of Abraham/Melchizadek back into them.

hi def i get the impression that the "book" he read from was the birds and the trees and the clouds, and the faces and eyes and souls of anyone he met. and yes, also the books of his people. but also...a ton and a half of stuff that wasnt in there. ...it seems to me that he was somehow diametrically opposed to the traditions of his culture...which is why they killed him, because he gave people reasons to think and simply be in "new" ways, while redeeming the value of "old" ways. and i mean, honestly, def...what is so wrong with the idea of love itself being a "higher octane" standard than a book? why would you argue against that? i mean, which of the two is more reliable and timeless? besides, where in the Bible did Jesus ever set his own standards? imo, he came to break the laws (into pieces), not chisel em deeper into stone

LOL, mr H...whether its a buncha critters peeking from the cyber voods, or a buncha shrinks taking notes...its still odd (ummm, not sure what your trying to say, Steve! that can be taken a few ways, i suppose)

curious... i noticed a spike in lurker activity today. the usual 20-40 usuals, but also enough guests to push the total Online to 150 or so not sure if its a computer glitch, or if someone somewhere somehow pitched the GSC to a body of people (like innies or offshooters or someone else) anyone else notice? or know of anything going on? if its not a glitch, i think its kinda cool and so, a hearty "welcome" to the not-so invisible crowd

imagine, your "blue" self is ill and tied up in knots, and someone wants to simply chop it out for their own sake, ignorant of the fact that your "blue" self is a vital and divine link in the chain of being (thus, leaving you with a hole in your wholeness, like a broken chain) or your "orange" self is overblown and running the whole show, and someone wants to simply cram their favorite one-size-fits-all something in there that does nothing but enrage (and possibly feed) this already enraged child... btw- i use these colors as a tool...cuz the map is not the same as the territory. but i think such a map can help to see why ministers and politicians and businesses fail us...they are still chowing down like pigs at the trough on the tree of knowledge of good and evil, which keeps that ole snake on the ground, not yet having climbed any higher. but Moses lifted the serpent in the wilderness to heal them. and of course, Jesus understood this, and repeated the truth of it in his even greater context. and in this sense, the "Caduceus" is possibly a more "Christian" symbol than the cross. being a universal symbol for healing ...why? cuz it gets that damn snake in our heads and hearts off the ground, by giving it some wings be ye wise as serpents, but harmless as doves, right? and "I'll meet ya in the air"

example: the "good and evil" approach to "ministering" is what Jesus taught of when he spoke of casting one spirit out, and it returning with 7 buddy problems. if we look at problems as simple black and white issues, sure, we might crush that single level of the problem that bothers our own selfish selves, but it also causes a ripple effect throughout that system that comes back to bite us in ways we don't understand (like Iraq), and confound us (cuz we just dont understand why the back and white approach didnt work). if the spectrum of both the inner and outer worlds (both sides of the firmament) is based on the systems that developed in the first 7 turns of Genesis...we need to learn how to sing (live, think, act) on time and in tune if we are to help. and so we need to learn the basic notes and frequencies of things, and be "naked and unashamed" to the basic tempos. when we no longer nourish ourselves on the crude early system of good and evil, and can evaluate things as the interacting wholes that they are. thus, we see a new heaven and earth...NOW. in the twinkling of an eye. but people often react that it this is too complicated. my answer...its only 7 notes folks, biblically. we dont even need all our fingers to remember em. and if a kid can learn to play a flute or a banjo, adults can count to 7. although, 7 is just a timeless and useful model. cuz you can also slice a rainbow into a million pieces if you want. same rainbow, more cuts.

yeah. both "naked" and "subtil" being an openness, a bareness, or complete lack of taboo. no shadows yet cast. no blindspots. not having developed a set of things "not to be looked at." not yet prudes. to nourish one's soul on a system of strictly good and evil values, rather than seeing everything as inherently good (but perhaps incomplete or stuck or immature or confused or lost), is the road to unconsciousness, shame, ignorance, rage, sorrow, enmity, etc...the root of our problems ...but also the "sacred monkey bars" we gotta somehow climb. cuz again, even this unconscious state is not evil, just a necessary in-between. we gonna curse a baby for kicking in the womb? for simply being unborn? or for eating a turd when its 2? perhaps a multi-layered multi-branched "system of positive and negative flows" is "the better way" we are to eventually see good and evil (now that we've left the garden). to understand the ebb and flow of things, the masculine and feminine, the rise and fall. this would open one's eyes to something, no? even while looking at the same damn thing as before? question is, perhaps: where can we find the ideal vantage point to see this tree that is we? wherever it is, i hope to God it simply accepts me for whatever stair i find myself upon today

lol...lindy and Danny maybe he was a hottie (and a metrosexual/hillbilly hybrid), but i would also think that, in the sub-culture he was a part of, for a man to come along and promote education, healing arts, universal compassion, the well-being of elderly and sick and outcasts, throws a great party, tells amazing stories, gives a good footrub, shakes up the greed and religion and ignorance of the patriarchy by expressing peace, etc... ...bright and influential women might just naturally become his students and dear friends, no? heck, many of them might have thrown themselves at him at first. but a man who doesnt try to bang or exploit his "groupies" would be noticable rarity among minister types. note: the dove descending on him from above being an anointing of a feminine nature (i mean, look at the form: wings unfolding + oil + descending from above + being well-pleased, all sorts of ooh aah shekinah glory type stuff, etc...is it sexual or a birth canal or both? does it even matter?) the secret of the universe, including the "problems" with eden and the "solutions" of the book of Revelation, are to be found in sex and sexuallity, it seems...sexuality of body, sexuality of soul, and sexuallity of spirit eros and agape in union...now there is a fiery tree that never ever goes out

oh ****! i think cm just chopped def's ear off! :P-->

yer right, Lindy i should have said "subtil" and "naked" are one step from the same root

another monkey wrench, perhaps... re: the serpent being more "subtle" than any beast of the field "subtle" is the same as "naked"

wow. thanks for posting this abi forgive if i over-generalize...this is a complex issue... aside from the very valid genetic and biological aspects, it seems that more and more, as kids are dealing with increasingly complex environments, their minds will naturally try and adapt to keep up, which may make them less feelingly aware of their physical body and emotional correlates. but on the flip side, their ability to visualize complex and animate models is perhaps unprecedented in human history. i read an article about how the thumb-brain connection is rapidly developing with the advent of video games and cel phones and such. add to this, the mind-machine connections that are developing...every field of science and medicine will benefit (not to mention religions and spirituallity). these methods of reuniting their body and mind, can work towards restoring a wholeness to their development, where body and mind, inner and outer, grow as one unit again. the curse of the "indigo children" can become a great blessing of our near future if we continue to find ways to integrate their vast thinkers with their outer world..and early on in life. i grew up with a certain level of attention issues, which pretty much kept me from school. and it has taken me til recently to begin to reconnect body and mind in such a way that enables me to "dance", using various methods and thingys and such. but also, i was a kinda wild and barefoot varmint and able to roam the woods and wetlands and railroad tracks freely as a kid. i believe this also helped a bit to keep me from being more isolated and inward by keeping me in touch with more simple bodily interactions with the natural world (catching frogs and turtles, chasing herons and getting chased by beavers, etc..).

found interesting stuff tho... *Theosophy according to skeptics *Some sort of modern Theosophists *Theosophy according to Catholics *Some other modern Theosophical Society at a glance, seems quite active and diverse, like some modern Alexandria, or metaphysical Disney-Land. they seem to specialize in looking mostly backward, which is helpful. unless its all one does, all the time, imo. but even then....i'd at least get a t-shirt. ;)-->

thanks for that, pawbroker and to add, if i may... until we see this duality for the unity it truly is and was from the beginning, we have very little freewill in our lives, and thus, the heart of the early Christian idea of forgiveness. to be driven by our selfish impulses may bring many consequences for us and others, and justly so (or the universe would be broken, i suppose), but it seems hard to blame this consequence on any sort of conscious active effort, though there is still always hell to pay in the present. just as you can't blame a snake for biting someone who panics upon finding it in their sleeping bag, nor the person for panicking upon finding a snake in their sleeping bag. sure, we have the ability to choose, but if we've never had the knowledge to choose...absolute freewill is mostly out of reach. choices are more like trying to hit a few limited moving targets from afar with a dirty scope and crooked barrel imo, we spend our lives seeking a choice that is truly free. it does not start there. it ends there, and thus, enables us to start again once we find it (as in spiritual rebirth). and too...re: these two Yods....this is that which we can come to understand more as the dance and romance of a marriage, rather than enmity and war

i'm interested go for it :)-->

in the end, it was quite unanimous: "more sessions like this!" but most of this week and next weekend will find me in the air and on the road. so if it is to happen before then, someone else is going to have try and play "space-keeper." but regardless, i do fully intend to play at it some more once i am settled again. this has been such a treat. also, feel free to suggest more topics here (or email or pt), as well as thoughts on the process, what to do (or not) about transcripts, or anything else. :)--> ya know, i found it amazing, how, using the process itself, we added another useful element to it during the session, which was a smooth way of posing questions to each other without disturbing the flow of the live turn-based dialogue. and i think the live aspect of the process is a large part of what makes it a quickening thing

A few immediate thoughts on tonight’s schindig.... It never ceases to amaze me how rich we all are, just as we are, in this moment now And whatever it is that we can find to undo and open this wealth of being, both within and for each other, so we can simply somehow radiate as we should, has gotta be worth more than just about anything bought or sold If we can find and fashion rituals like these small sessions, ones that generate a general inclusivity in life, as opposed to a general exclusivity, we might experience what we were seeking when we signed those green cards...only, this holy temple is built on and destroyed at the sound of a gong, or upon the lighting and snuffing of the wick of a candle flame. No lifetime commitments here, except that simple vow from the heart which often comes to us and from us quite unbidden. That vow to simply be, as we are, all in this together, until the end of time. Made in a wide open space called love. What radical clarity might we find here? And what else is it to become pillars in the temple of the living God? But to stand and be counted. To raise our voices in simultaneous inquiry and expression of that which is simply and elegently divine. Of all things we might call church or temple or Zion or holy city of God, I can think of no better then that of so many saints and angels singing in tune and on time, regardless of the language being spoken, and regardless of the color of their halos or wings. blessings all :)-->

also, a reminder: this is an unmoderated session, for the most part. no passwords. no screening. so it is live, without a net, in the wilderness...yada yada yada. keep this in mind when you share, considering the cyber wilderness as it is. if it turns out to be too much of a problematic mask-charade, maybe we can change the venue, or otherwise adapt. but...i dont mind anonymity, as long as it aint being used to manipulate