sirguessalot

Yeah, Satori. I dont recall whose psychological model this is from (Lovinger?), but we naturally move from egoic "God as mouth" stage (self-centered love) to mythic membership stage (group centered love) to some sort of accomplishment-based love, to a universal open love. But these are all considered the "first tier". there stages both below them and above them (such as tribal love, which is pre-egoic, or non-dual love, which is post-post-universal).

wow. i appreciate all the responses to this thread. and my computer crashed and burned, so ive been offline for few days. so i hope to get back to this subject soon. a few things real quick tho, cuz some of the responses seem to not have understood (or read) what i wrote...(which seems understandable..lol) to help put the magnitude of this spike into a different perspective: lets pretend that "stairway to heaven" has 1000 steps, and VP was born and raised to live and dance somewhere around the 100-300 step range, and with all sorts of disfunction and taboos and such going in those basic steps. then his fasting and suffering and seeking elevated certain cognitive and visual lines of his intelligence and awareness to the 500 to 600 range for a few years of his early pre-ministry life. and so his spiritual spike was not a sustained peek into any sort of "ultimate realities" or actual holy Ground (that 1000th step and beyond), but rather, that one-time Porky's peak into waves of consciousness that were simply much higher than VPs own spiritual center of gravity (100-300 range). and this peak/peek was then translated, for perhaps throughout rest of his life and ministry, through the lense of where he had stabilized (midwestern germanic christian american farmboy). (btw - we all do the same sort of thing, in our own ways) what i am suggesting, is those parts of what he saw was "real" and "genuine," but to reduce the vast (but navigable) complexity of such things into "it all comes down to (blank)" is to reduce the entire ongoing truth of the matter into a tiny box. which is simple, but not very helpful. in fact, it really just prolongs the suffering, it seems. we all have many multiple lines of intelligence developing all at once. different lines may take the growth-lead at different times in our lives, and then even lose this lead to others later on. this is true for all of us, and VP and LCM. thanks waterbuff. and the truth is, i'm both all and neither of those things you mentioned, and then some. if i was to label myself, today, i would say im a "Christian," mostly. The Bible is my favorite book of all, especially the "Book of Revelation." but names and titles and such are not digested so well around here (which i can understand), so i avoid them, as much as possible, really. even with myself. i guess what i try to do is recognize and honor the commonalities and differences of things like form and function, "light and sound," in all schools of thought, regardless of linguistic limitations and backgrounds, or place and time in history. i have seen that there are signatures and archetypes which seem to "float on top" of the waters, so to speak, and so reveal the shape of the waves...much how light glitters on the surface of the ocean. eventually, what is seen and heard when reading a thing is not just the old dead written translations on paper, but the evergrowing network of wisdom behind/beneath/above/beside them all. in light of this, i guess i could write a looong list of religions i "belong" to. and besides, if Christ is king of kings and lords of lords, then there is no religion where Christ has not taught. and as it is written: "the son of man has nowhere to rest his head" ("son of man" not being just Jesus or Christ, but that which comes next after Adam, after being processed thru the feminine, which then would include Jesus, of course. and so, Jesus speaking of "the coming of the son of man" is something like a prediction of an evolutionary event, of which Jesus knew he was a pioneer...so, not super-people with superpowers) ...not to mention things about the majesty of Abraham and priesthood of Melchizadek, which i'll not go into detail here. to simply begin to perceive of this deeper, universal level of spiritual understanding is a big part of The change we seek from Christ and in scripture. no, not that Jesus the man comes and kicks everyone's foot and makes peace in the world, but that Christ returns to earth (outer) from within (the gate to heaven). which alters (by expanding) our perceptions of cause and effect, among other things. someday, if/when this becomes commonplace, the prophecies will also be true on the outside, i suppose. and so, i consider myself a follower of Christ, basically. and the Bible is my main book. i've practiced seeing and studying the complexities and simplicities and functional distinctions of the logos as generic divine form inherent in all things from the beginning. ya know...that schticke. ;)--> not sure if that makes me a bona fide Christian or not, tho. depends whom you ask, i guess. ;)-->

i think "meditation" is a univeral biological process/tool even animals and trees "meditate," in a sense its just that some racial lineages excelled at developing more effective means of entering the dreaming and dreamless sleep states and some excelled at recording and/or expressing these methods also, in our age of hyper-languages, the word "meditation" is used to describe a wide variety of things some meditation methods will get one in touch will "soul" some will destroy the soul some will go farther than soul a lot of strip mall "meditations" and "yogas" these days seem to lack the traditional depth (and patience, affordability, etc...) materialist meditations, materialist yogas, materialist churches, etc... some good questions for Christians might be: Did Jesus "meditate?" Did he teach his disciples to "meditate?" Did Abraham meditate? Did Moses meditate? Did Solomon meditate? Did Ezekial meditate? Did Paul meditate? Did Peter meditate? etc... and what might this mean to our modern christian states of mind? (and sorry if i derailed yer thread, johniam...but i've seen some strong connections between of the crude way VP taught "speaking in tongues" and various refined methods of meditation. which might benefit some here. a distant latter rain parallel development, if you ask me...kinda like ive described in the "vps spiritual spike" thread...which also has something to do with "waking up woozy" and human capacity to have visions (even of snow) and such, and many many other various states of mind can we read of in all scripture (1 Cor 2:13ff) and experience in day to day life)

in fact, the ole lo shanta shanta style "speaking in tongues" has played a role in some kinds of meditation for me as it all pertains to "waking up woozy"...i have had some real profound and often startling "successes" in playing in these states since i started practicing

rascal, i am not sure what else to say to you on this...so please forgive if we get clumsy with each other...im willing to try but haven't you yourself just now theorized and guessed that Galatians is VERY clear on the subject, thus, explaining away someones willingness to indulge in evil as simply being a matter of "they are evil?" they are evil because they are evil? they are selfish because they are evil? they are evil because they are selfish? where is the nourishment in that? is your argument because my "theory" (which i'll edit if that word bugs you) is a bit (and only a bit) more complex than the ole "good and evil" theory of things? why would you argue against greater understanding of what simply is? do you not want to understand bad behavior, low moral fiber, and lack of good character? of course it should not be acceptible. but how can you help and heal and know why if you do not first understand the problem as possibly more complex than good and bad? i thought we werent supposed to eat from the good/bad tree for knowledge besides, where do i justify their behaviour as godly? where do i call them prophets worth following? where do i contradict Galatians and suggest we believe in false prophets? -->

But rascal, isn't "speculating a person's spirituallity" pretty much the same as "letting the (spiritual) fruit say it all?" what is the difference? how does fruit speak? i mean, what exactly is it that you are arguing against here? -->

interesting, cm, re: India. cuz VPs India fixation and experiences have puzzled me. its almost like he was "shadow-boxing" something, and calling it "the work of the ministry" and just in case anyone has missed my main point (due to all the excess verbage...i know), i'll try and restate it... ...perhaps anyone (like VP or LCM) can have a genuine spiritual "peak experience," which, for whatever reasons, does not stabilize into a plateau. And then so naturally, this peak experience can only be understood and applied and expressed, by them, from and through that particular "God-view" where they have reached some sort of plateau (the religion of our upbringing), perhaps even stirring and exaggerating any unresolved BS in the process...like egos and lusts i dunno. perhaps re-consider OT and NT records in light of this, and see what happens (btw - i hope it is obvious that i am not a vpw apologist. i think the guy turned out more like a vampire, myself. its just that i am also interested in why and how this happened, spiritually, without all the cussing and sneering..though i can also understand why many of us cuss and sneer too ;)-->)

Yes. A few different kinds, for different applications.

i'm not sure how to respond to all that, rascal its like you're arguing against a bunch of things i didn't even write and it reads like an angry postcard from Hell i'll try though I agree with what you say Galatians VERY clearly says about many things I agree about staying away from dudes like this (though we disobeyed, didn't we) I agree that they lose their "inheritance in the kingdom of God" (though i might disagree with what that means, and when and how it applies) But I will disagree that all theories and guesswork are invalidated by your theories and guesswork (think about it a sec) And I will disagree that "anything else" (i.e. what ive written) is an attempt to "rationalize away" anything (not even sure what that means. read it again please) And I will disagree that anything "is and will always be" inexcusable, Biblically ("father, forgive them for they know not what they do," remember? not in Galatians) "Morally" and "ethically" do not equal "Biblically," btw. the morals and ethics of the Bible changed more than a few times, if u recall. one day it was ok to condemn. another day it was only kind of ok. another day it was ok again. another day it was off limits. another day it was forgiven. and if vp and lcm worked so hard to earn your scorn and condemnation, then by all means, continue to pay them for their services. scorn and condemn until your spleen rots out. cuz in doing so, you still serve them, it seems. they earned it, right? btw - what does the Good Book say about scorn and condemnation anyway? (its not in Galatians, i dont think. try Romans or something) honestly, rascal, can we not spiritually discern the subtilties of spiritual cause and effect without simply resorting to the blanket scorn and condemnation of the flesh and souls of these men? sure, they were aholes, but that doesnt mean they couldnt saw a few legit fragments of things with their ahole eyes, does it? this is kinda what i am getting at have we not been equipped to so discern by the Good Book itself, and the Lord that bought us? i think we have, and then some

Theories on Victor Paul Wierwille’s Spirituallity For what its worth, here are some recent developments in my understanding of what VPW (and LCM) received, retained and released. I’d love to see what kinds of discussions might spawn from these things. And I am trying to present these unfinished thoughts as simple and summarized as I possibly can, so feel free to chime in, disagree (constructively or otherwise), or ask me to clarify where I might not be clear enough. (warning, i might repeat myself a bit...which i'll try to edit it out as i review a bit more) :)--> I believe that what eventually grew into the doctrines and institutions of PFAL and TWI, was instigated by the authentic and relatively profound spiritual experiences of VPW. As with many spiritual “occasions,” these experiences were brought on mostly by VP’s desperation, poverty, personal suffering and seeking truth and meaning in the majesty of Bible scripture (though he was also reading quite a bit outside of the Bible for truth, it seems). But even moreso perhaps, these experiences were invited by those many sleepless nights and all that grape-fasting. And these experiences came to him in the form of things like: new visionary thinking, strange inner visual and audio phenomenon, rapid series of “aha moments,” and an increased ability to hold these budding fancy new complex models and concepts. After all, he was also meditating and praying on some of the richest and longest-lived spiritual texts of history (and so these experiences naturally came through that same frame) But these experiences were only spikes in VPs awareness of things, not permanent spiritual traits or any sort of developed habits (which spikes more or less graciously dropped from the sky onto his head). Because he seemed to lack the will, heart, discipline, integrity, and knowledge to maintain that level of spiritual clarity. Although he also seemed to have experienced a haphazard series of small peaks and peeks throughout his later years as well...especially as he neared his mortal death. And these experiences, being mere peeks at universal truths and not the steady plateau of what might come from a disciplined one, all that VP heard and saw in those days was then expressed and practiced solely through the limitations of his old natural filters, or those lower states of being he was most comfortable with...namely, his old ways of selfishness, pridefulness, rashness, legalism, exclusivity, racism, controlling, lustfulness, materialism, etc... And he also interpreted his peak in the only cultural language he knew....the language of a midwestern German-American Christian farmboy/preacher (which in his earthly pride, he seemed to think was somehow superior to all else) Which also seems far, far from the universal language-set of Christ, and more like a sub-sub-sub-district of our modern Babylonian religious linguistic confusions All of his momentary spiritual experience was crammed thru these old filters, still clogged and encrusted with his earthly fears and taboos and shadows And none if it was very new to the world, but simply new to him (which is perhaps why he claimed it was such a monumental uncovering of first century truths). Big difference, yet, another layer of his limited thinking projected onto his genuine spiritual experience. And so once VP left off of his fasting and praying and other spiritual struggles and sufferings, and returned to fattening himself up like an old patriarch/pharoah, he could not see anything new of significance. Only little puffs of phenomenon here and there for him to brag about, all the while bemoaning the lack of vision he once held briefly, and that “man he knew to be” (whenever he found a window of honesty again). Which is why, however crude and sloppy the written and spoken expressions of his spikes were, there are obviously some truths to be found in PFAL and VPW’s words. And so it should come as no surprise, that if one examines his works long and hard enough, they might even see beyond those institutions he set up, and perhaps even see more of that template he originally snuck a few glimpses at. But its like refining a ton of ore to get a only sliver of gold. Sure, its gold, but there are many far richer veins in the vast mountain of God. And that VP could not maintain that spiritual peak of his “glory days,” reflects strongly in his works. As with his own personal limitations, his doctrines provide no substantial “praxis” or injunction to enter the states he claimed and once experienced, though he genuinely knew they were available. His works seem to teach us to struggle and beg like he himself was, still trying to get things, from that book, and from a distant God. And so he could not provide a demonstration or evidence of much of what he said was true, because he probably did not understand how he once got there in the first place. All he could seem to do was provide yet more mythic translations and feeble models to explain his hit-and-miss experiences. I would even go as far as to say that LCM had his own authentic peaks and spikes as well, and also without a way to maintain the plateau long enough to unravel them any further. And so likewise had a subsequent falling back, and then expression of his own series of genuine spiritual experiences through an old clogged filter Both of them, like horny kids on Porky’s, desperately and briefly peeking thru a tiny window at something genuinely wonderful. Its just that the nature and form and manner of their seeing was incomplete (i.e. sinful). So I no longer condemn either of these men for what happened to them and us. It was only natural, it seems. And I hope these theories might help us to see why there is such a diverse blend of reactions to "it" all, and why all them can be honored as having some sense of validity (yes, even Mike's, imo). ;)--> Peace,

i'm glad this thread is staying alive. forgive if i "go doctrinal," but heerz a crude summation of what ive learned and experienced. maybe some of it will address some of the points brought up: it appears that we move thru approx 3 states of awareness each day... ...waking, dreaming, and a deep formless state these are often called things like: body, soul and spirit, or gross, subtle and causal realms (though there are a thousand other sets of terms and models throughout history, these seem to float to the top in the east-meets-west discussions) we "move" thru each of them in a sense, every day, in that we relax into (or literally "sit in") each state for a period of time most people (modern or ancient) naturally do not practice or seek much of the latter 2 state and if they do, its usually only the soul/subtle, and even then, only partially, or accidentally, or perhaps even addictively and so we usually miss out on being aware in the soul and spirit realms, pretty consistently throughout our lives. and the causal/spirit deep formless sleep realms are about as close to "death" state as one can get, and the way we often fearfully approach death and dying reflects our lack of practicing maintaining awareness thru "dying" on a daily basis throughout our lives for an adept at resting in the subtle realms, one pretty much knows they are in the dreaming state. they do not forget they are dreaming and believe they are in it. they are in the audience watching the sublime flics of their soul with a box of popcorn in their lap, taking notes (like saint Peter, when he "entered into that closet") for an adept at resting in the causual realms, one is still aware when the dreams fade and come to an end. infinite bliss and radiance is how its been described. no mind, no body, no time, but wide awake...and then watching as the soul and body fade back into awareness we simply usually just miss the latter 2 states due to lack of practice, education, interest, religious/cultural taboos and ignorances, etc... but we can and do peak/peek into these realms often. drugs, fasting, trauma, etc... can all kinda throw us into these states while still awake, even though we have not made them a habit of our "being," if you will (and so we "fall" back out) also, to say that we "move thru" these states every day is one thing, but the truth is, all of these states are active and present during every breath we take. the result of practicing them is that they eventually all become present in our moment by moment awareness. we became acutely aware of ours and others' "layeredness" (even that of cats and dogs...;)-->) and imo, it was this kind of inner salvation and wholeness that allowed the saints of the first century to do such amazing and wonderfully good things. i mean, when you no longer solely identify yourself with your waking/gross/body state (or just body and soul states), there is a liberation that bleeds into your behaviour and interactions. what you are simply willing and able to do and say and sacrifice expands quite a bit.

yeah cm and sometimes i think the value is simply not recognized like a thin layer of dust hiding streets of gold

just saw this posted on another thread like scripture (thanks highway) like a fish does not know he is wet our bodies may know not know it swims in soul do we dare mingle our waters into one fishbowl? if even only for a song or two i wish you were here (and so...where is here?)

yeah, cm even simple fear...like shyness, timidity, shock, being wierded-out, or strangeness important question: how can we make it easier for each other to come near and "disrobe" for a "new garment" of the soul. this seems important. what offering would be holy enough to prove sincerity after all we've been burned by? i mean, how can we repaint the temple and spruce up the cushions? what sort of transparency and openess might entreat by revealing that "there is no hook hiding in this worm" :)--> oh yeah...what does all that have to do with sexuallity and spirituallity in communication? if masculine "fallen"...communication will be mostly competitive and argumentative. and some top dog will sit atop his pyramid like a pharoah and want to control communication via this upside down half-tree and call it a tree. and so if the feminine is also "fallen"...communication for the fem side will be like birds chirping over the top of each other in natural sub-circles. like an excellor session, or loud twig/cocktail party but if masculine is "risen from this death"...he will use his gift of single-mindedness lift the feminine dialogue upward, and marry the types for a 3rd type (i.e. "son of man", or simply, the offspring or product of the balanced union...a single step (but never last) in spiritual evolution). Try reading what Ephesians says about marriage in this light. as long as the masculine soul can sit without flinching and hold open some sort of space for the "birds," they will come and light on "his" branches (those branches being the very soulish channels of communion via dialogue i have been describing). this is something any man or woman can learn to do (as both have a masculine "wing" within). as easy as eating a new cookie recipe and digesting it. (btw - when i speak of men and women...i speak more or less equally of the masc and fem in each of us and the masc and fem of flesh...like Ezekial's first vision)

consider this... seems to me...that a large part of the struggles of any religion and faith rises from that primal intersection of the sexuality of its communication and interactions of the members of all pairings from eden, which is most sacred? which is most fundamental? which screams the loudest when it is damaged? which most fosters (or threatens) the advent of divine offspring (Christness) one initiates and single-mindedly leads ever upward the other spreads outward in folds and ripples to embrace it one is simple the other is complex one is hard the other soft if successful, the result of the marriage is an equilibrium, a unity and so, the ability to simply move differently like giving birds pairs of wings this is true of marriages in earth of trees in the elements of dreams in the void ;)--> but the locus of this harmonious union's potential to do good outwardly, spills most directly from the hearts and minds and mouths of humans together. any truly holy communion will allow the widest and heightest and longest and deepest range of its dunamis, if you will. and i believe the scriptural accounts of "speaking via tongues of angels" has more to with what we've been dabbling with than any silly lo shanta shantas which is why there has to be an method of explaination, or "interpretation," or newcomers are confused and might even call you crazy as it is written, it is more than just how well we eat with each other that pollutes the temple, but how well we talk to one another :)--> and sure, the hard body is a functional leverage point over the soul, just not the most efficient way to move things. in this, one can succeed and fail in one stroke (as in: "we got Saddam didn't we? i think the bombings worked pretty good. he he") because the more liquified nature of soul has much more leverage over the body (whether applied accidentally or consciously) and the tangible mediums (like oil paint or clay or blown glass) and channels (like river beds or branches or streets) of our souls are quite "real" and rational and measureable. and organs like eyes, tongues, and hands can all be considered kinds of tongues for manipulating this "actual stuff" of soul (direct heart to heart via string theory, and as in lines, waves and ripples) and so...just as a claw can reach out and manipulate a tear into someone's flesh, the tongue or eyes or writing can reach inside of another's being and manipulate a tear in the soul or reach out and massage a sore in the soul it is written, out of the hearts flow streams of living water flowing into an open sea perhaps ask yourself...what is the actual substance and location of that sea? :)--> to somehow finally come to believe and understand that how we naturally speak is yet a birth and death away from how we can spiritually speak...not, not a condemnation of the unborn, but a call for the unborn soul to leap and leap in the womb of the flesh if its ready. a call to start tick tick ticking away at that egg shell. and that this same "leap" becomes more of a little step, that is so unbelieveably already sooo near to our hearts (via these tongues as ive described them)...this is good news, imo. a heralded bulletin board account of a "new" and better fertilizer for positive spiritual growth, if you will the only thing really special or strange about it is that its missing from the equation hidden in the shadows of the dirt, waiting to be uncovered our own true faces (not faces of flesh) like a circle of angels standing on a lake of glass looking down (or is it up?)

hi sharon i hope there are more, too tho i'm not sure if i will be holding any spaces this week or this weekend, but i do intend to try some new formats someday soon. maybe not as much here at the gsc, but at some other venues. if i do, i'll still post an invite here. (btw - that is one of the coolest things about making open space...all you really need to start one is for someone to invite others to it and simply go. most all of the details arise at that time, in that place, among those present. just start with an invitation to a crowd) on a side note, as i've stated from the beginning, one of my wishes for the gsc is to pass on the knowledge of the processes, in hope that they might catch on independent of me. if nothing else, by providing some simple demonstrations for us to consider. and sure, the sessions can and does function like a therapy of sorts, and there are plenty of wonderful open space support groups and AAs and therapies and such in this world. but as a "spiritual doctrinal group therapy," if you will...now there is an angle i have yet to see much of in modern Christian application. Christianity seems to prefer either the single MOG in front model, an inner circle-only "open" space (i.e. a cabal), a friendly-only panel of "experts", conversion-only driven groups (which are primarily agenda driven), etc.... and if an open space environment is functioning at all in Christianity, it seems to be restricted to things like a group of women deciding how to put together a meal or event (cuz the feminine is already naturally a natural at such forms of "holy communion") i like to think of it as more of a salon. a think tank. present day prophets and saints reasoning together by following unrestricted lines of inquiry. sure, that Controller within is present, but tamed and subordinate and subject to our more creative and compassionate inner natures (i.e. "Christ within, the hope of glowry"). on a personal note, i am still somewhat disappointed (which is my own fault) that none of the usual fundamental biblical doctrinal posters of truth and righteousness and such never even bothered to at least post on this thread regarding the subject. i long for a constructive dialogue within Christianity these days, but i think i may have perhaps cut myself off from that here over the years (here, at least...who knows) regardless, i think and hope Christians (especially American and Evangelical) have a lot to re-learn about the good Book we hold. especially as it regards use of the tongue. and i hope we do it soon, before the isolation gets worse (and it can get way worse), thereby further postponing the fabled "return of Christ" we so long for. as it is written: our tongues are connected directly to our hearts, and our hearts are connected directly to our tongues. and so, knowing it is such an unruly beast, why not teach it a new trick? a new song?

i hope i didnt step out of my space-keeping role too much for anyone. sorry if i did. the topic and discourse was quite inspiring. besides, i'm quite the novice at all this. :o--> a few thoughts on making space... it seems to me that the idea of spaciousness and openness and inclusivity is akin to what we seek when we speak of things like love and holiness and Spirit it is some sort of clearing that we either make or find or are given like the womb - a holy space given for our physical and spiritual births or a clean clear altar of the soul - where we make our sacrifices or a black hole - where stars and galaxies are born it was the eye of the whirlwind where God had a chat with Job it was a place of silence and stillness where prophets saw their visions that nothing is there, is what is so special about it there is a freedom in that a liberty when we speak of spiritual things...what is it but vast clarity and emptiness of form and comeliness? no ugliness. no beauty. no judgement. body is not clear (but full of .... and blood and bones) soul is not clear (but full of feelings and thoughts and dreams) but both of these manifest in some sort of space some sort of much much thinner medium spirit itself manifests from nothing and nothing is not an evil word it is neither dark (black) nor light (white) in a sense "to create is to bring into being from nothing" is just as true as when it was taught in PFAL, but perhaps for more reasons than ole vp himself had respect for like the pupil of an eye without such a space, one would not see without such a space, one would lack the clarity to percieve of much at all deep down inside, do we each have such a space in which to defrag our hard drives? is not this space our truest most reliable selves? what would happen if we were to practice manifesting this spaciousness? this graciousness? this inclusivity? this level of love? in such wide open space...agape love does not need to be lifted up it simply choicelessly falls everywhere like rain from above then lifts us up like a flood

i guess i'm just wondering... did they ask the air? did they write the question down and burn it in a fire? did they use those yes/no stones? did they simply repeat the question over and over in prayer until someone spoke back? cuz this isnt hard for anyone to do no need to be a special race and also, when it says "and the Lord replied..." did this come to one of their minds? did this come to all all of their minds? did this come to their ears (so that a passerby could hear it too)? i mean, how can we rely the record of this "the lord replied event" as from some sort of ultimate God? could someone have recorded some sorely limited spiritual perspective of a somewhat obscure genocide of history, and its been in the Bible all these years, confusing the heck out of us? the various causes and effects of the record seems to hinge a lot upon who is actually talking to whom and for what reasons and if we try to apply this less-than-clear cause-and-effect relationship with heaven to present-day political and cultural environments... i agree with this line of reasoning. perhaps divine rules are simply seen very differently for different eras of humanities development? they dont change, per se, we just express them through different sets of goggles

:)--> that was cool up to 5 peeps at once, almost 2 hours of open space dialogue... thanks to all for being there

either or, i guess or anyone who makes this statement or what the bible means by it but ok, most specifically, the one who wants to answer it you posted the author's statement, but we cant ask him :)--> (edited for confusing typo)

thanks a mil, square p btw - for anyone interested or curious...there are 3 in the session now, and we need at least 1 or 2 more to get started however, an even slightly larger group will have more ooomph

hi Mark what does that mean? or what did it mean to them then? curious cuz i think it might add light to the conversation by just asking it (seeing how it is used as some sort of The Reason for the problems they faced)

a quick oops...i meant 8pm eastern time for the 2nd session (which ckeer got right), due to abi's request. and so, if no one objects...i'll be there 8pm eastern time to facilitate :)--> a few thoughts on this morning's session... in case i haven't said it enough...i really dig the live nature of these open space sessions. cuz live seems to more easily draw out the deeper layers of our spontaeneous, authentic and unplanned selves. more quickeningly, if you will. and also, that quickening of the co-intelligent and collective-soul type atmospheres. all the while, retaining the strength of our individuality standing alone together, if you will or standing together alone (though i still think we're barely scratching the surface on this kind of process..which is natural, considering how little time we've been at it)

i was gonna point to that too. not as intense, but at least of the same state or substance or medium but i also think Peter (being a disciple of Jesus the wilderness wanderer) was highly disciplined at sitting cross-legged and staying awake as long as he could. no food, no sleep = drop awareness of your body and time and such. and so...no wonder the jman needed food and sleep and medical attention when he was done with his 40 days and nights