sirguessalot

dang, girl... thank something yes B) & ty

um...lol...omg...ok i dont think you guys are even talking about the same thing here no, i know yer not or maybe you know, but simply dont care or are too lazy or helpless to react any other way probably lack the education, information, morals... i dunno but nonetheless, you dont seem to realize it so i feel somewhat obligated to say something and am embarrassed for ya as a friendly fellow human being btw - i figure this is the tongue some of you enjoy using why not speak it and see if it gets thru, no? cant blame me for wanting to play the same game, can ya? gonna cry fowl? that sounds like some pretty lame lies to me, sudo your eery slick fake concern passive aggressive projecting sickness must be "folks like you" or sumthing, i guess and somewhat ironic...how you imply clay is mentally less fortunate than you if ya know what i mean (wait, ummm...maybe you dont) ok...heerz a request why not try stepping outside of your self here, too cut Clay some slack on a line of thought he is obviously interested in expressing and exploring or at least own up to why yer being a jerk about it (without blaming others for what you allow yourself to do) (and please dont tell me you dont think yer being a jerk to the guy..cmon) i mean, its like yer stuck in the same ole poopy joke and damn rootin tootin flag waving proud of it (and yer getting really really good at it...practice, i guess) donthca think it makes it tougher for folks to gather around a quiet table and chew the spiritual cud if you pretty much know the usual punks are gonna come spit in your food, and publicly sneer and mock you?speak out of the side of their mouth i mean, how much you want to bet you dont feel good right now, reading this? maybe even yer highly selective heart is racing more than you wish it would right now whether its from anger. sadness. hysterical laughter, doesnt matter... just feel it, would ya? for such an enlightened one in the biz of helping people stoopider than you i would hope you would stick to the things yer good at and recognize when you simply suck at something but keep doing it at the expense of others at least, get a cream or something for it something sheesh shazbat dang silly goose whatever btw - i'm not merely defending my friend clay (heez one hugely forgiving dude, imo) nor did he enlist me in any way i'm more interested in what more could happen with this wee corner of this wee forum if we could all agree that simple conversational manners are still worth something in this world ...it is 2005, after all... not everyone starts a thread in order to pick a fight most of you are much older than me i almost feel embarrassed to remind you big boys of things like common decency and owning up to your own crap (oh hell yeah...i think it was worth writing)

fart is kinda funny or rather, that it is included hohoho :P

more babbling on "why religion?" whilst i pass on by...read slow if you must... B) if we can consider how, like individuals, the world's average level of understanding development evolves in stages, building upon the previous lessons, there really was a time when mythic fundamentalism was truly a step beyond the egocentric behaviour of warlords and whatnot. kinda like when a criminal mind genuinely moves beyond thinking they should be violently selfish simply because they "find Jesus" in a church. It was not the actual Jesus that saved from ultimate hell, but the symbol of him and various father figures used in church that saved the criminal from simply a prior hell, and gave him something to rally around for once. And...this could have been just about any functioning group-think who succeeds at lifting that hellraiser a notch. Though one can then also get stuck in this stage the rest of their lives, too, having mistaking that single glorious victorious rung for the whole darn ladder. But the selfish are not going to be able to skip the group stage and jump right into the more rational world-view. In a sense, like how something cant simply move from atom to organ without first being some kind of cell. There is an inescapable sequence of growth in all things (though we can always and often do touch and taste and glimpse states beyond (and behind) our established footing for various reasons) but ah...to enjoy the benefit of a healthier group interaction for the first time...no wonder people get so excited about it. and it typically takes a myth, or symbol, or metaphor to gather around...some sort of easily recognizable structure (for comfort and safety) to get us beyond the merely eating and pooping mind ...and of course, let us hope these leaps from poop to group and beyond happen well when we are still children, if nothing else...so those early mythic worldviews do not gain control of international political steering wheels. (oops, too late) :blink: also, to bring it back out to the collective again... from the histories of the judeo-christian lineage, i can see this leap recorded as: 1) wandering in egypt to 2) finally establishing the patriarchal temple structure which began way back with ole Abe's lineage of relatively revolutionary visions for establishing that necessary racial identity (before moving on) (though other lineages faced this shift at other times...such as how egypt seems to have done so long before the isrealites...but the problem being (like israel faced later)...egypt also happened to be stuck in those ethnocentric agrarian patriarchies, which is why they treated the "fatherless pagans" like lesser beings...slaves, heathens, sinners, workhorses, less then, etc...) ... again, if we can consider that, like individuals, the world's average level of understanding development evolves in stages, building upon the previous lessons, and that there really was a time when mythic fundamentalism truly was a step beyond the wilder and more egocentric behaviour....but now, the world has already moved beyond even that (perhaps first with what is often called the "great enlightenment" of the west), and is already "swelling" in another stage (which is even more open and free than the previous, especially as it pertains to freedom of information and speech and more public transparency and involvement than ever before) but to move it back to the mythic level, in our present context... if one believes that because the leap from self to church was a saving grace for human history, and/or simply for them, personally...it is perhaps because it truly is, and was, in part. but now, there is also this new arrangement of truths that the patriarchs of old did not have to face. namely...a new world whose average worldview has never been so anti-mythically rational, and even worse...more recent waves of greater openess and transparency in dialogue and communication. to die to one and move to another is like a baptism of fire, which hurts like hell inside until the work is done, like when faced with going from merely selfish to contributing member of a group (ouch), and then again faced with going from myth to greater reason (ouch), and then again when going from control of reason to greater overall concerns for freedom of information and speech and beyond...(ouch and ouch). there are those ever-renewed humilities that are required of us by God...not once, but again and again and again, til the end of time, it seems. ... finally, to use a great gem and gift from that mythic age, it would seem that all these early dueling worldviews were also represented as far back as the prophet Ezekial, in the likeness of four beasts (though old eze's model seems to have identified a large part of the nature of man's trouble, he also seems to have lacked a fuller spectrum of the picture as represented in those later, more infamous works of heavy heavy revvy metaphor.) B) ok, i'll try to be done sorry if it sounds like a lecture i am just a troubador, really just trying to be useful its better to light a candle than curse the darkness ...someone once said ...which sounds true nuff to me peace

for what its worth... (hope it makes sense to someone) like most all big big old old traditions, discussion of relevence or value might want to consider that any such experience of it is going to be an increasingly narrow slice of whatever that _____ism is or ever was or ever will be, in any sense of truth. i doubt that any such religious tradition has ever been so historically consistently like-minded and monolithic as their ardent critics often describe them, even from one single genuine life's experience. being old, they are big big with many twists and turns. exotic is the word is prefer to use. like any decent wilderness or garden of critters. diverse mixtures of genius and idiocy and truths as they were lived in each vessel, broken and respun over and over again, only to be broken into pieces and reborn in some new generation. swapping spit with other breeds over and over again. also, i doubt that adherents of any degree are likely to know of or able to take into account ALL of the many strands and lines and movements associated with even their own religion (be it given to them at birth or taken by them later), let alone all the many strands and lines and movements associated with the dozen or more other major old old big big branches of planet earth. - also, none of tjhe big big old old are getting much smaller any more. and none of them have stopped changing as the world turns. and none of them have stopped splitting into more and more pieces. like some crazy hydras who live largely via entire languages. and how the fish doesnt know how truly and fully wet it is doesnt seem very useful (for very long, anyway) to try and dismiss any such "it" as "bad," nor render "it" supreme as some monolithic pinnacle. like the roots and branches of a small forest of many species of trees that have been here longer than any of us. living languages like neutral vessels, each full of both mystery and wonder and b.s., by sheer volume alone, if nothing else. in short...i guess...even the "mere" topic of catholicism is such a vast vast vast and evergrowing tapestry of human experience beyond even a die-hard life-long catholic's comprehension, let alone an often shadow-boxing critic. :blink: that said...i have recently discovered a very small couple of truly wonderful catholic lives via their writings, ones that anyone anywhere might learn to enjoy. worth googling, and following then the white rabbits down the cyber-hole...lol ...thomas merton ...father thomas keating also, i believe that the catholic tradition has so so many historically relevent folks worthy of being called "saints", in the most general sense of the word, whose wisdom and lives alone are worth reading and considering, and being thankful for, regarding in prayer, etc.... (oh yeah...one of my other favorite catholic laymen...JRR Tolkien...B)) peace

It seems there is A LOT of misunderstanding of Buddhism (and all its many various practices and beliefs and histories) beyond the popular notions in the west. Regardless... Though this is a simplistic use of two very complex terms, i can see a lot of value in this model. Perhaps it can be restated as the difference between interior and exterior sciences, or objective and subjective scientific modes of inquiry. Also, to unpack it all a bit further, perhaps the areas of human concern can also be seen in collective and individual applications (although the individual and collective exteriors kind of run together, giving us 3...the science of the I, the science of the WE, and science of the IT) The "science of the I" is seen in things like meditative and contemplative inquiry (seen in most all wisdom traditions, Christian, Buddhist, Islam, Aborigine, etc...but often mistaken for mere dogmatic religion by the less-informed). Psychology, also, would fit in this mode of subjective inquiry, although less focused on higher spiritual states, but more fully completing the lower rungs "the chain of being" (such as in childhood development). The science of the "IT" is the one we most commonly associate with "cold hard science." 3rd person investigation of 3rd person realities. Deals in what Buddhism calls "gross," and what Christianity calls "body" or "flesh," and what western calls "matter, energy, physics, biology, neurosciences, etc...." The "science of the WE" is more cultural and social, and perhaps one of the least explored territories of science. I am guessing it is the newer frontier in human evolution, one where femine energies play an important role (such as the science of transforming dialogue). Also, considering that the WE is a collection of "I's," this is a mode of VAST potentials in Intersubjectivity, such as collective intelligent processes (along the lines of Peer-to-Peer processes, think-tanks, and OpenSpace technology). These are the 3 areas of human concern where i think the Dalai Lama was getting at. But part of the problem/solution of dialoguing these topics are in finding clarity regarding our actual personal applications of the labels "science" and "religion," which is where the "science of the WE" comes in handy (where WE understand each other's meanings clearly before WE take another step...from a more common ground) Also, perhaps you can see where any of the 3 modes of inquiry has its problems/opportunities.

yet another blah blah blah from me on this... another common travesty i observe... is the often growing degree of many elbows and disconnects between what fundamentalists claim their sacred texts mean, and the actual historical/philosophical/psychological significance of the characters and events and wisdom within (and it seems that in this earth:2005, not a sacred text or tradition has been spared from this, to one degree or another) and this only seems to fuel some skeptics' misplaced antipathy towards all such texts and traditions particularly when they will only cite the worst case examples for their arguments and refuse to further examine the subject of religion/spirituallity from most any angle (a subject so broad and complex i would call too wildly exotic to be so quickly reduced) quite a circular mess, it seems not to mention the ongoing problems of fragmentations and infighting and more recent hyper-fragmentations within each tradition and how most all of human language itself is taking some abuse and going through some major metamorphs in forms of dialogue ... peace all

when it comes to religious and ritual acts such as baptism, sometimes i think this simple distinction can help: 1) are we trying to add meaning to a ritual? 2) are we trying to add ritual to a meaning? ...neither of which are better than the other ...both of which can be abused ...but both of which can bring profound benefits to self and others for what its worth

Another of the common problems with the rational arm of modernity when it sees itself as superior, is when it cannot tell the difference between pre and post-rational. Strict linear logic might see non-linear logic (such as higher forms of "vision-logic") as mere "religion" (which is a form of travesty, because it was this post-rational "gravity" (such as Einstien's) that lifts/lifted awareness up from pre-modern to modern in the first place...and continues to do so) Also, when/if the strictly rational voice decides to somehow silence the pre-rational voices (and often simply for not being rational "like moi"), it may draw some to modernity, but the most pre-rational will simply dig in and try to get better at being more pre-rational (which illustrates quite a non-rational act on the part of the rational, to which problem they might simply respond with some sort of violence or force or immoral suppression as a last resort).

there was a pre-modern era in human evolution, it seems, when art, morals and science were not seperate, but unified and developed together...the problem is that they more or less limited each other's growth by being so fully intertwined then came modernity, when these basic 3 perspectives (1st person, 2nd person, and 3rd person) were able to develop independently of each other...which allowed each to flourish greatly without the limits of the others...the problem is that they were now also often at war with one another (a war in which we hope no one actually wins). with post-modern thought, the best of both previous eras are recognized and integrated, recognizing the true importance of the I, the WE and the IT, without marginalizing any one of them, or ranking any as superior to the other. of course, with all new things come newer problems, and the mystery never ends...thank whatever... rather than being inclusive with continued rational evaluations...post-modernity (bless its heart) can also take this all-inclusive non-superiority stance to a level of flat non-evaluating, non-judgemental extremes. B) btw - i wonder what post-post-modern might look like (and what else it can be called...for fashion's sake alone, we cant just keep adding more "posts"... :blink: ).

Heerz a paste that might help...

once again, Geo (and Sudo), you seem to have reduced your definition of "religion" to your least favorite simple exclusive mythic theism (which, btw, only covers only a small fraction of what we call "religion", and...for some reason (unless i missed it) you've never really responded to this observation) perhaps this might be worth reading: Wikipedia: Religion of course, there are countless obvious gifts of conventional rational thinking (gifts that keep on coming, too), but the new problems come in when things like skepticism get pathologically reductionist and exclusive and bitterly cynical, and somehow thinks this is the new pinnacle of thought that addresses all levels of human experience...when it simply cannot (though without healthy skepticism and rational science, we are also sorely lacking...have i said this enough?) NOT all religious practice and behavior is "the opiate of the masses," although, when and if this kind of dissociative "storyline" is promoted (again, i am talking about the pathologically exclusive kind) and spreads to any sort of dominant status in a culture...we will see a new kind of dark age of supposed rationality, perhaps even one where physical death is not the main problem (though some might even prefer and pray for a plague to come)

some links on the subject: Short Quotes Some of Einstein's Writings on Science and Religion More Quotes Einstein and Buddha: The Parallel Sayings Albert Einstein Quotes on God, Religion, Theology & Science peace... enjoy... B)

what a great thread, imo heerz my present rant on the subject... Evil may be relative, but the relativity is a true thing which then makes evil a true thing relative to the bedeviled thing like when an innocent snake bites the most ignorant and innocent man...;) seems quite natural to me, for the ignorant man to blame the snake but another thing altogether to understand why it is a good reason to be thankful and pardon them both also (but not exclusively), i think its interesting and useful to consider the cast and props and plots of the early chapters of genesis as more representational of certains stages of our interior "spiritual evolution." where there is this garden, wilderness, whatever full of a jungle of instincts, including all this primal sexuality and this single-minded snake that is always flicking its tongue and asking sinful questions and these growing systems of life and knowledge and whatnot and somehow, we gotta get this "snake" out of the dust and somehow lift it up in the wilderness get to those better temptations deeper questions etc... :blink: on a side note...socks, i think this is cool: i've heard it likened to a deeply romantic relationship with a text where, at first, all we see is the skin of the lover's hand, or only the eyes of the lover's face but with longevity of inquiry, "new" and better questions arise more and more of the lover's "body" is revealed from one structure of faith to another like a series of many good and useful "failures" and "breakings" though this can be most true of the world's most enduring texts but also, if enough time is invested, any piece can be subject to such higher spiritual eros (such as PFAL, Dianetics, Shakespeare, Star Wars, anything...) regardless as to whether the "suitor" is aware or concerned with the actual details of the author's intent (which is often a different matter entirely)

thank you, Chatty Kathy and i am sorry if my writing lacks clarity

George, i was referring to what religion got us out of, which took place at least a millenia or two before the dark ages. You picked such a specific historic context to disagree in. Not moi. (although, i will agree that religion can retard the development of greater reasoning) Also, all i said was that "better" things came of the move from egocentric to ethnocentric...not the "best things." Because yet again, the move from mythic to rational thought provided exponentially better inventions and discoveries and cultural arrangements, eventually leading to even better things. Also, just because a society may have a center of gravity at such and such a level, there are individuals that operate at higher levels (like how scientific thought emerges in the mythic world...and the popes and kings could get better gizmos to pope around with, ya know?). Also, before either of the words "religion" or "science" came along and picked up such narrow conventional definitions, many of the greatest thinkers dabbled deeply in and beyond both (and still do). There exists deeper relationships with the spirit of the texts that endure beyond mere mythic translation. There exists deep spiritual experience intertwined with great scientific advancement. And I think that if you continue to unscientifically reduce "religion" to such a narrow bandwidth of experience and expression to suit a bitter argument, you might remain quite mystified by it. Not all "religious" practice is on the same level. Within even Christianity, you have selfish seeking christians of the base kind, tribal christians, group-think christians, cultural christians, rational christians, political christians, selflessly giving christians, monastic and contemplative christians, christianity-challenging christians, etc... Likewise with Islam, Psychology, Feminism, Yoga, Neuroscience, Buddhism, Atheism, etc... The truth of the level of behaviour always transcends the label. Even scientists can operate at a fundamentalist level, and there is a point, it seems, when science stops being as scientific as it claims. i dunno, i guess that along with the limits of dogmatic religion, i have also outgrown the limits of reductionism in conventional science. There is almost always more to the story. And there are scientific methods of inquiry that can re-illuminate the truths of the texts of the wisdom traditions in a rational and post-mythic way (though this is off-limits to the purely objective.)

great gutsy thread George. many great responses, too B) for what its worth…here is my quick ramble using some simple models… According to many models of evolution, everything develops in a sequential manner, moving through stages, each structure building on a template of previous structures. Like going through preschool, kindergarten, 1st grade, 2nd grade, 3rd grade, etc... Stages cannot be skipped, though a greater cognitive reach may give better glimpses of other stages from “afar,” and any stage can be accessed as a temporary state (for any number of reasons, but typically causing as much confusion as good). Now, as this pertains to the evolution of human understanding and behavior, these "grades" are like cultural and behavioral structures that spread more or less “memetically” and continue to evolve from there (even if this evolution happens within a stagnation or pathology…for example: where a “hitler structure” can simply get better and better at being and disseminating the improved “hitler structure”) What we often call "religion" is usually referring to the "mythic membership" stage of evolution. This meme is typically marked by some sort of -theism, military patriarchies and sacred brotherhoods, agrarian lifestyles, ethnocentric values, textual fundamentalism...no matter what the language, skin color, historical timing, etc… And though this is something humans already wrapped our mind around a few millenia back when we moved from egocentric to ethnocentric awareness and cultural arrangements, evolution happens in overlapping and lingering waves, it seems. And all the basic structures remain (probably because the primary elements of them are still necessary and useful) And there is great value to the mythic stage of evolution, but also 1) all kinds of damage can be done there (perhaps manifest in a repression of that meme as one develops) 2) development can and does also simply stop there (giving us the hardened fundamentalists) 3) it can be suppressed and/or exploited by those of higher structures of consciousness 4) all kinds of other shyte, as usual On a more microcosmic level, this 2nd stage of development is something we also individually develop in early-early childhood, when we learn about notions of “us and them.” And there are notions that we move (or not) through the stages, including them (or not) as we go, as parts of a new greater whole, while excluding our sole-identification with them. Even the body-to-soul-to-spirit sequence is valid in this regard, in a sense. And to the rational minded "3rd grader," there are so many things that might look like more of the same ole "2nd grade religion", but which actually may be 4th grade and beyond (same texts and names used, perhaps, but way different understanding, intention and overall prime directives involved). So, then what is the value of “religion” as mythic membership? Compared to the more primal magic stages, i would say: better sex, better food, better clothes, better tools, better community, better survival rate, deeper friendships, a sense of safety, more children, more industrious and innovative (and all because we more or less agreed on the same mythic "other" God-father figure for this inherited exclusive family-ness). Without a few thousand years of this, “the brotherhood,” we would have never moved into our more rational era. Also, though hopefully, the understanding of “diety” and “divine” may expand and change through rational stages and beyond, the notions of family and brotherhood and gathering into groups for some mythic far-off ideal should always remain valid and vital, even if they no longer dominate. Of course, the 4th graders will not like my using any notion of grades at all, and the 3rd graders may like the grading, but might not like being given a grade without further proof, and the 2nd graders will refuse to believe that their family is not the highest grade, and the 1st grader could care less, they just want to know where the food is, or praise, or something entertaining, perhaps. …so sorry if I offend or seem cruel…kinda hard to avoid with this subject… Anyway, according to each of these basic "lower" memes, each of the other lower memes are simply wrong (and considered crazy). And the ongoing conflicts and relationships between the 4 most basic structures of consciousness are like the "four food groups" of the crucible of human development. What I see happening now, are some sudden swells in the 1-2-3 level, even as half of the world has and is already leaning heavy heavy into the 3-4 level (this age of rational science and economics and political/cultural pluralism and leaps in communication ways and styles). Another problem is, it seems, is most often, many of the “sacred texts” of the 2nd graders were often written by folks who were beyond even 4th grade, and their great wisdom and understanding is mostly off-limits to majority the population of the religion that clings blindly to it (often violently, as we have seen). Kinda how PFAL and VPs pseudo-science/pseudo-bible was rooted somewhere in the 2nd grade as he struggled to bring the 3rd grade down (to merge the mythical and rational worldviews). (Of course, we have also since learned that he spent a lot of time in 1st and 2nd grade…the booze and sex and vanity)). Anyway, a few valuable questions I have heard along these lines are: How might we help elevate those of the mythic stage to rational without damaging or losing the textual and traditional wisdom they hold? And how might we restore the actual rational value of the texts to the rational minded? for what its worth +ODD

i read stories about one of my first deaths saw it on discovery channel i was swimming as a school of single minded soldiers towards some singing object just over every horizon the first of us to see its glow, dove right in and starting digging i remember reaching the brightest layer and thought that i had won the prize and that i had reached my peak one of those moments when time stood still...and i bit ...but...one taste, then something reached out of the ground itself and grabbed me by tongue, snapped my neck and completely sucked me in and unzipped me, dead as fish bones, scattered like letters etched in the cemetary of headstones... (it wasnt til later that i found out how much older she was than me...) anyway, from there, it got really crazy really fast i thought i was dead, but what really happened was me and this new world went through this roller coaster ride of a metamorphosis which seemed to take an eternity compared to the first death we went through these stages like some mythical mutant creature but then things slowed down and we lost track of each other then came this laughter and love from beyond and sounds of angels singing through some veil glowing red warmth at times coming right through the wall i had finally really arrived this time but this world kept getting smaller and smaller things seemed to change less and less things get tighter and tighter still no questions answered until one day kerplunk woosh a flood tremors screaming an earthquake all my angels were crying then out comes this knife and chops me off... i was screaming bloody murder..... and then i feel asleep and it got better and worse from there ya see? i fell for it again lol and kinda funny too because this birth seems like its taking an eternity compared to that last one, too oops...i mean death or...um :blink:

Mark, not a big problem just a little banana peel i saw my point was...that our intentions (and blood pressure) are more or less invisible in mere written form, and it does not help to superimpose things that you might only be imagining going on top of a written dialogue, especially without verification, or at least the option of verifying... No need to apologize to me for asking the questions. like i said, the questions were not the "banana peel" you dropped but what it was that "seemed" true to you just a tip, really, take it or leave it we all do it on accident...some do it on purpose either way, its still a banana peel which causes confusion can i assume you value precision and clarity in any sort of doctrinal communal proceedings? B)

just a quick obsv...before i fully join the conversation Mark, you wrote... i think this is where good conversations can slip and go bad really quick i mean, you ask for substantiation of her beliefs, yet you seem to somehow believe that you raised Rachel's blood pressure, without substantiation of that fact...which seems inconsistent, quite dismissive of her question, and loaded with suggestion. no sweat we do it all the time kinda funny thats all thought id point at it before i joined the conversation

is that a Will Bullas, tgn? ...what a name for an artist, btw sspecially from all the bull ive seen in the art world :P and i like how you kinda brought us back, CM in such a flash... B) as simple as lighting a candle click, blink...a presence when its on its on when its off its off and sometimes its even on when its off ok, i'll try to stop saying "its" so much made y'all look though, i bet (made who look? look at what?) lol ok, permit an attempt at some jazzy riff... it seems there are many layers to all our subject-object relations but rather than merely climbing some linear ladder or flat list to some static point or place we are each a manifold and evolving system of lines and pages and bindings we inwardly lengthen and unfold along many stems, clusters, and roots we hold multi-layered structures of our clarity of perception alone simply being a variety of lines of kinds of knowing and being as exotic in lines of feeling archetypical neutral generic vast chambers mansions evolving complex but do keep in mind i am also only speaking of a single inward bush with this bare mention of the currents and flows that ascends and descends the tree in an exotic world of burning bushes most often hiding in plain sight and then... to bring our eye another radical step outward where we get to the physical world outside of our body add all that up, and considering that perhaps the actual magnitude of a subjective space is relative to the complexity of the object, the "truth" of "it" all becomes quite the fractal stepping back again, and "it" becomes another vast world of worlds filled with all the previously mentioned worlds full of worlds i thank god for a simple place to sit and simply view it cuz that mystery is never going to end anyway unless i simply learn to sit down and enjoy the view and swap stories because the temple complex has already been built and is right here and now and is already full of candles each of us like both a menorah and one to witness it and this is our most natural state, it seems...growing templates of manifold clarity and then embodiment of all that we simply already have and are like we need source codes that allow us to unwrap and unpack the seed that help carry us through our own living mythology i mean, what is it to repent? but to turn, or otherwise change what you are aiming at? sometimes we can stop trying to get out of seed and simply "turn around" and try to open it instead

lol. Irisheyes. keep in mind...i wrote that very fast which sometimes is hard to tell, in this environment and the time/energy i referred to was what i would most likely have to spend explaining myself (which, who wouldn't love to try and do, in a more wide open space) so i am content for now to sing a song sow hope in things if i can truth is, there is a loose metre of sorts to it much like rap, or a lullaby like a word of prophecy in a sense in fact, there is an art form of "spoken word" sessions in the rap world part spontaeneous but from deep down but only the gist of something else really kinda like beat poetry or something or a ranting and raving preacher on a roll quite an ordinary level of play of human speech if no one takes it too seriously as for having more reason? go ahead. ask me a reason for anything i said see what happens i think i can interpret most of it cuz i probably have reasons for every single thing i wrote though i reserve the right to paraphrase to keep me from having to sit here all day i think that is an awesome "one little addition" amazing true lovely and whatnot amen amen and thank you for it :)--> a sign of something wonderful in you imo

ha. this thread reminds me of one of those chess games where ya kinda know that ya can walk away from it for a few days and the game might still be going..hehe :P--> this mystery reminds me of the book of revelation as if a Bill Murray pitch line ok, the story goes like this it starts with a guy in the dark in his closet or something in the spiritual place ya know? anyway he hears this voice from behind him, turns... sees this radiant being with some amazing hair and eyes and some candles then sees some messages and messengers and messengees singing in a choir or something finds himself in a throneroom full of many-eyed critters at a jimi hendrix concert finds some locks and keys and books and some easy little mysteries end act one and then it pretty much goes Jim Hensen from there on out i mean...huge huge cast. earth-shattering plots and special effects. smashing-ending our hero even meets some folks he thought were dead and pretty much give him a thumbs up and a notepad says good luck, see ya around that sorta thing but it all started with a guy who needed some candles to get started which meant he was most likely somehow in the dark quiet awake alone and the mystery never ends it just keeps getting more clear and vast and stubbornly so thankfully imo i wonder which way did he turn? when he heard that voice? was it like Moses? but different? :P-->

wow. groucho. that sure seemed like a nice heartfelt rant...bravo! :)--> and ok, so i wonder... first, would you do such things for free? and second, worse...would you sit through something if they paid you first? just curious

:)--> lol yeah…right most times it'll get ya buried in a pile of rocks (although most hypertextually, in this case) hehe and i don’t think i can spare the energy right now but I’ll say this signs are everywhere of all kinds of things a dream the weather birds and bees someone's breath the stars the news once a layer of that mystery is solved it is no longer a mystery but a wonder, i suppose always with a better mystery thank god i mean can you imagine what one culture might call the secrets of another when first introduced to them? like seeing a gun for the first time in an evolutionary sense and wonders and miracles like coincidences happy accidents luck fortune out of nowhere something good happens woo hoo that kinda thing or something new that has never been seen before something simply unexplainable the first wheels? the first man on the moon? or something beautiful a building a book a baby or tragic times of great change in history peace agreements even hellish wars great enlightenments yesterday's miracles are often today's everyday news but the miracle of plastic? wow and photography? the cutting edge head of christ manifest face new kid on the block son of everything ya know? for this to be manifest causes creativity and innovation etc... and for it to be recorded that such things follow some new movement of a school of thought.... says a lot. in its historical context they learned and taught radically new things (which are now radically old) and retaught radically old things (which must have seemed radically new too) no wonder they argued and got their asses kicked a lot even as they stirred people to come to together in new ways no one was in control of "it" either, it seemed those waves heck if you could bring peace to any place of contention and hold it for years... wouldn't that be a miracle? or sign of something wonderful? even if you dont know what that may be? one can classify and render official whatever they wish but that does not change what happened especially to those who actually touched it when it happened nor does it put some sort of gag and cuffs on God for 2000 years as if... --> but of the fun and flashy woo woo stuff that is usually associated with those 3 magical words.... yeah, therz plenty of that going around too all the time and its not always pretty or public information which is hard and then theres the sticks and stones again been there done that too but to say it straight as i can... we already know the truth of it but it hasnt set us free because what usually keeps people from miracles is "the devil," in whatever sense he can take any form "he" wants, right? any name, any face, any place to be free of that would be a miracle too, imo like i said i think they already abound :)-->