sirguessalot

i think that when forgiveness is longer considered a miracle, to us but rather, becomes something we simply practice doing, also (though it may seem like one, when it rarely happens) we are finally pushing that old god-button on our selves the central note on the flute we could call it our capacity to forgive then...add this to the autonomy brought on by rational thinking and finally have what the scriptures were talking about in mythic ways which is agape...surrendering love...the most reasonable ends of the outcome the widest embrace which is more of a post-rational stage or state of being and NOT the old old mythic brotherhoods most religious people interpret it to be even today in our modern world reminds me of the stories when the kid freaked everyone out by simply openly forgiving someone as if he has realized that it has always been his inherent ability to do it this was obviously so radically new it was more like a terrifying mork from ork alien invasion than a holy messiah though the kids and ladies and elderly catch on quickly regardless of reason they already know what the kid was talking about

i think the truth of a lot of things depend a lot on who and what and why we think we actually are and then all the many ways we interpret and re-interpret our experience alone and together i think it helps to get beyond the myth by also using the wisdom of the myth itself and so in a very classic sense... our faith is described like clay, or mud, sand, glass, stone and if we find an aspect of ourselves to be a cracked pot we need not be afraid to smash it to smithereens again and again and again til the end of time if we must there is a new level of liberty in knowing that "god" doesnt mind you playing with tools and blades here this is the garage this is the studio this is the shop within is each of us is some sort of domain where our view of god and ultimate truth is simply brutally tested and our faith IS the shape of our own final answers like the gold that is purified seven times i think it can be a joy to learn that we truly can be gods of our own sense of faith even though our "final answer" has just stubbornly moved on us yet again a "god" that remains is the ultimate bounds of our concern and cognition and selfsense, among other things it is part of why they say "god is now both father and son in one" because our own sense of self changes it like being given a key to a furnished room we have never really seen we have a "work shop" where we refold and refold the steel of our own person cutting edge of experience to the depths and degrees to which we are brutally honest with many new layers of things we will have truer and truer interpretations of all our experiences of course, any new thing can come as "christlike" to us at first which is like saying..."the birth of a baby new belief system..." any new level of belief can come as a surprise and blow your mind some even sit you down and confuse the heck out of ya some new belief systems are tragically forced upon us there are a lot of disciplines of being brutally honest with the many layers of this aspect of "god" ...art forms and time-tested and peer-reviewed schools of practice that better allow us to approach an occasion of "belief-change" with more options (like being given a new shop full of tools) i would even go as far to say that practices of deeper levels of ordinary self awareness bring us closer to what some of the ancients described as "holy temples and palaces and kingdoms" if the "father's house" is our "inward human nature" the skeptical objective aspect of ourself is one of the "many mansions" also, this sense to unfold and penetrate all the layers of darkness and deception is more or less an expression of our erotic, or masculine-love drive to fix and build and improve which is why its classically associated with fatherhood and sonship and brotherhood and ascension as it was interpreted then today, i might say it represents the basic evolutionary impulse to build and climb anyway, i always think things gets much more interesting where the topics of science, sexuallity, and spirituallity merge

JJ wrote: then i would simply find a way to smash that nagging suspicion, as well

ok, here's some thoughts... (tho I failed miserably at keeping em short and simple..as usual… please forgive if i seem to repeat myself from different angles) How can we believe? Most generically, it seems, is by practicing getting comfortable with notions like pain and suffering and enduring and surrendering and allowing, even to the fullest breaking of our own hearts and souls, if we must. In more traditions than I can count this IS what is considered to "die before you die" ...which is kinda like saying "to meet or experience God" or some other such sense of "ultimate source" or "original face." This kind of state of awareness has been called things like “the boundless heart” Although, its not mere magic, not mere myth, not mere science …but higher sciences, using natural human talents and the ability to touch and taste and experience death by practicing leaning into a fuller spectrum of suffering and the death-like states that surround it. :mellow: huh? wha? Yikes! What nutcase would do such a thing? Let alone condone the practice of suffering? …and then to intentionally and more deeply feeling pain…?!? :( I know, I know...to be honest, on the surface, it doesn’t sound very good or sane or pretty, to me, either. It’s like someone suggesting that we drink a cup of molten lead then chase it with a bowl of live scorpions and snakes right before we dive head first off a cliff. It’s no wonder how guys like jesus made so many grown men cry …when the good news came across as real real bad bad news. But the payoffs… …traditionally, the payoffs have been called things like “heaven, salvation, redemption, enlightenment” yada yada… (though modernity and post modernity also have many great languages of their own)… But to be more direct... ...it is how we find even deeper personal freedoms from all kinds of self-deceptions and all our various natural death-grips on the ego …and it is how we actually simply feel and experience and more-or-less “activate” a greater sense of compassion and awarenesses with bounds that expand far outside of our conventional sense of self... …and its how we quicken/hasten our "ultimate release" by actually tasting and touching the essence of the process often called "death itself," but in very real ordinary experienced occasions (which occasions, imo, remain quite worth calling something like “sacred” …because of what they offer us is specialized…and thus, special…and in a class of their own) … There seem to be thousands of ways to practice and direction to approach this one kind of damn-near terrifying thing ....via arts, sciences, schools, beliefs, practices, ways, methods, instructions, styles, etc... There are so many simple and effective ways of consciously learning to “die before we die...” It’s kind of like “the final lesson” or “last stage” of the “first full backflip” of our entire natural human self awarenesses where the universe literally becomes new to us again via the additional layers of new experienced perspectives. all of which then tends to increase our capacities to live and die with a fuller sense of grace and richness and more capably maintain a sense of equanimity during the occasions of birth and change and loss and death And so I cant help but also call this way a gift… this access to a real live felt-sense of “death being swallowed by love” through a door that is always already simply just there, within …via your own heart, your own breath, the air you breathe, your will, and all the many many complexities and systems tied to that package. my oh my….how they all become more important…yet again, again, again the ways we feel when we breathe the ways we breath when we feel the ways we think when we breath the ways we feel with our body the ways we think with our body the ways we feel with our mind the ways we feel what we see the ways we see what we think the ways we see what we dream the ways we see what we remember … Looking back at that pair of infamous exemplars in an era in which this kind of interior practice first seemed to emerge we see that the pattern is fundamental to both original christian teachings and original buddhist teachings… ...the crazy idea that pain and suffering are “a gate” to some new level of experienced freedom and awareness and that such a “bloody red road through hell” was more or less the one and only "entry gate to heaven" such language is mythic, of course, as were the times these truths were realized But as with all experience, they were interpreted and expressed through the mythic and magic eras they emerged in. And as we learn more and more about the truer reasons for the things the ancients were trying to say ...the writings become even more valuable to the post-modern sciences …especially as it pertains to the notions of a “boundless heart” … Traditionally, to “repent,” or “turn completely around” is NOT to find some correct outer direction, but an actual turning your perspectives inside-out, also. This is the direction Moses “turned” in order to see the “burning bush.” This is the direction John at Patmos turned to see that radiant figure who took him on a grand tour of reality. It is to enter a realm of your own interior self and start practicing forms of “higher science” in a new frontier (“higher,” in that it is literally subtler, using the most delicate and sophisticated and sensitive equipment known to man: the interior and awareness of your very own human being) Mere mythic interpretations aside… this is something that could literally be called: - one’s own “personal narrowest only perfect truest path” - your “one and only way to heaven” or some other sense of “personal route to greater freedom” There is literally only “one true way” for each and everyone one of us to “enter heaven” and experience the “boundless heart” for ourselves and we each obviously only have one true inward direction which need not be mistaken for anyone else’s (though it often is, anyway) And scripture or no…this seems a lot like what the kid and his buddies were trying to say Funny too, how most all deeply effective spiritual practices that i know of, are typically characterized by activities that any ole human being could do while naked and alone in the dark… And again…scripture or no…this seems a lot like what the kid and his buddies were trying to say Which is all just more good news on top of good news, imo…in the most basic of ways. The “boundless heart” is a new frontier, where the unexplored darkness is NOT outside, but WITHIN the actual breathing, pulsing, body and heart and mind of each of us. The very contours and textures of our truest selves are revealed to US via practicing ways of “interior illumination,” and no other way In other words…if you don’t claim your free ticket, you simply do not get to go But if we find a good way to go there, one thing we will find is that we also have this amazing sense of “felt intelligence” than can be consciously enacted, and almost radically so, with instruction and practice And what this does is basically more deeply introduce us to our best teacher and wrestling partner …our own personal interior shadows as they interact and relate to the truths of the outer world. talk about a brave new world… and a warning: just as the skeptics often say about their own favorite domain …it is also true of the boundless heart…once you enter, there is no turning back and it seems best if we find ways to ease into this fiery realm one little ooh-ah at a time, if we must happy new year

CM, this ground this love this God you speak of reminds me of a lot of things...too damn many, in fact..lol which is a big part of why it has my attention but so i am not sure which way to approach it from here but i would like to share with you all that i know, too as well as help draw out the wisdom of everyone else only, i am not always sure how to go about it other than babbling like a stream without end which annoys the heck outta me too and so i was wondering if we could try and focus the lines and circles of reasoning somehow maybe give some sort of form and flow to the discourse for example: maybe we can find a way to speak in a more "positive neutral" from time to time like...in order to temporarily answer "what is a boundless heart"...maybe we can assume that this notion of a boundless heart is neither a religion nor a belief, nor is it owned by any one religion or belief...but is some archetypal pattern of our natural normal human capacity which has been expressed throughout the history of human experience (whether "it is in God plan for us" or "it is a product of evolution"...or something else) and considering that "how" is perhaps one of the most potent little words to start any sacred question with (which is another thing about this thread that got my attention), maybe let us ask things like "how might we refine good questions into better questions?" like "how CAN one believe in a boundless heart?" which is where i would like to go with it from here but with my own voice, in the ways i have come to understand it

hi jj B) i have found that the meaning of "God" can simply keep changing from faith to faith to faith, as it were each faith is actually a layer we shed once it has done its job and the difference between layers are not small or subtle but rather, each is a stark drastic shift in perspectives and values and expectations and understanding i would even say that God wants us to smash our faith in God to smithereens over and over and over again and in one sense... ...we are not done until there is nothing left to smash

ok, here goes another rant for the wall… in trying to get closer to those "doctrines of a boundless heart" together… first…sorry if i came across like i was getting in your face, Tom Strange. I know how a list of questions outta-the-blue can come across as interrogative hot lamp. it would be nice if we could ask each other anything, without having to flinch and wonder why and yes. thanks for that, Bluzeman…i think it’s amazing what transparency and respect can do…yes, i would call it friendship, too…common ground sought and found…some common language in play …a place where you find that your "maps" overlap...which just gets better and richer the longer you can sit there together and yes, too. like doojable said, lets do "this" as long as we can to which i add...yes...lets get better and better at doing "it," we should have done "it" more often, and sooner do what…? - find common ground…first. most common seems quickest and easiest to find - to see what clay is pointing at…beyond mereness of heart, beyond mereness of air, beyond mereness of life - like that book you mentioned, and all the other tons of links and white rabbits that came jumping out of the woods from that google - like how finding greater common ground is a major factor in any huge leap forward, personally, historically. From the new testament “revolutions/revelations” of the Bible…to post-modern advancements in all science and psychology and so…yes yes…more common ground, please…now, here, today, if we can here is a whimsical thread i started on the subject some time ago better questions = better ways and means to find more of this common ground rationally reasonably respectfully too make a wide open space and bring all the sciences and sciences of sciences you can and bring all the myths and lets look at them and don’t forget to bring all your wishful thinking and your always radically individual self and engage your intuition and a boundless heart cuz i tell ya from where i sit… So much has been already written about what has been called a boundless heart, over and over again, throughout both history and modernity, interpreted and re-interpreted through every stage human creation/evolution. The most directly scientific of which seem to be the plain instructional exercises and pointing-out instructions. And then there is also all the art and law and such…which touches the boundless heart from other perspectives But whatever one wants to call it now…this “boundless heart,” or “opening way”…in a very general overall sense…IS that which comes after scientific enlightenment (which comes after “mythic enlightenment,” which comes after “magical enlightenment,” etc…) in order to answer for the shortfalls and true limits and problems created by the true gifts of scientific theory and praxis. And it seems that this “more open way” has a greater potential to increase the values of science (and myth and magic), and is best when supported by science (and myth and magic)…all of which eventually opens up to even better things, (the most immediate of which, is to increase (deepen, multiply, magnify) the value of all existing and emerging language and information we allow…which is a big Homer Simpson “Woohoo!”, imho…). and, No …NOT by merely putting on rose colored glasses again…but by finding out how to take off yet another set of goggles…to simply see more (of course…then there are those other glasses, then those other glasses, etc..) Not easy either for the flat rational thinker…they would have to learn to play like a child again, in this arena…being quite new-again to an idea of there being rational value in notions of a boundless heart. and this is obviously not always an easy sell to the ego the mere mention can even cause severe negative reactions but the ability to play together in higher states and stages of post-conventional thinking is another good reason why pre-conventional lessons (such as myth and magic) are highly worth keeping around To put it all another set of contexts: i also believe this “more open way” is what was and has been kicking at the heart of American thought all along, although it might not always seem so to everyone. But that evolutionary impulse has a way of forcing its new freedoms (and problems) through whatever cultural/social template already exists (which in the US was a lot of new rational rugged independence as much as good ole mythic fatherland stuff). of course, there is even a limit to greater openness..which is when and where it is not fully open (like when it rejects science and myth, making a playground for narcissism and extremes of egoic decadence and waste of resources…and god knows we all know there is a heap of that going on in this crazy country and world) btw…i truly am sorry for losing anyone with my blather. and i am not here to be pedantic or snobbish and superior, though i do know i am probably coming off this way to some, in all my mirroring and shadowing and pugnacity…please forgive for feelings i have hurt which is why i do prefer play-mode over war-mode when it comes to solving, exploring, investigating especially when it comes to written dialogue because i have seen and do believe that practicing having an open heart simply works better gets us even closer to the heart of any problem more effectively than mere truth can

ha! nice B) i was waiting for someone else to google it, too nite clay

partially...which is good, imo seems to me more like an attempt at the art and science of play at self-inquiry via discourse in just about every culture and tradition, old and new and newer there are all kinds of simple and effective methods for subjective and inter-subjective exploration and discovery where asking better and smarter questions is more effective than coming up with final answers though answers also abound some thoughts...try not to let the answers upset you too much or take anything as seriously stay curious and get as specific as you want "tag-poetry" is a fun way to put it, though but it can and does go way way beyond that higher, wider, greater span and depth of dialogue and value for the participants yes..and...also... why not find a way to get good at straining all the gnats we can without taking ourselves too seriously? without shadow-boxing ourselves into the same circular arguments? personally, i cant wait to get the to subject of a boundless heart :P btw....wise old owl... just how many licks does it take to get to the center of a boundless heart? 1 (lick...) 2 (lick...) 3 (crunch!) hmmm seems to be 3 or so

Tell me, Strange Tom, why do you ask about LSD? and...is it also fair for me to ask what kind of drugs you have done in your life? or ask what drugs you might be on now? i mean, are you simply curious? i want to know why you ask? i dont want to assume anything which is why i am asking you to clarify so i can answer you better also, the topic of drugs and consciousness is an interesting one maybe start another thread and invite me to it i will tell you as much as i can if you are more clear more specific besides, this is not an honest question but a loaded one wherz the luv in that, man? help me see why you see that it has to do with a boundless heart

ok, dont let me stop you guys from leaving this one, this time but maybe this might help you/us line things up and figure em out a bit more (ok...imagine i'm speaking with a sleek mellow feminine european crystal clear computer voice, if you will) :mellow: it could be said that simple subtle things like air have long been found to have values that are simply and radically more good, more true, and more beautiful than your persent personal beliefs and cultural/social threshholds will allow ...as they are being represented here now correct me if im wrong, but you seem to insist that we must conclude that air be only merely true or only merely beautiful or only merely good to be sane or rational which is just another flavor of crazy and that you seek to intervene and repair and otherwise affect serves a true as purpose as anything else but your typical limited partial prescription for healing and well being does not work as well as you realize, (or are willing to admit), nor does it seem to provide an explanation for every available perspective and state of mind as they are becoming known to humankind, in general yours is more like a half of the story (and constantly getting less) yet claiming to tell the whole shebang besides, not everyone in playing candlyland needs or wants an anal-probe or poolhall banter (both of which are always just another man's candyland, anyway) it has long ago been proven that a greater sense of self-awareness and mutual respect provides more leverage for greater reaches of most lines of intellegence, in general and...again...thank you for going away because others and i just want to actually really truly have this kind of public con ver friggin say tion (oops...crazy man voice slipped in a sec...back to the alien tour guide) ...conversation about a boundless heart, air...invisible things one can only feel (unless one changes lenses, of course...then we also see it) yes...it is true, some genuinely feel they have a right to talk about mere air and the possible reasons people cant believe there might something more to air that might be worth talking about more :blink:

...to you, i would add which is where a big part of the disconnect is, it seems but i'll try and step out of the way and let Clay speak for himself

yep...clink, thank you i like yer last resort a lot i wish you would use it more often lets make believe we are sharing a beer :) tho, i am curious how you decide whose pain is needful and whose is needless? imo, an example of your distraction is when you bring something entirely new to the argument...outta the blue...without addressing whats already on the table..simply adding to the burden of the existing discourse you dodged most all of the issues ive raised you offered a distraction...a memory to convey something you seem to want me to do (which is quite beside the overall point, i think) i want to know why you want to write about having a beer, here? what does that have to do with clay's thread? and...is it possible that you have assumed and continue to assume things in error regarding the original nature of the thread? can you pretend for a moment, that something might be more serious or complex to others than they are to you? and give more respect to that? in this public space? i dont know how i can be clearer than that not everyone has a problem reading what ive written don't you wonder why that is? with all your funny hmmmm? hmmm? hmmms? i believe there IS such thing as harrassment conscious or unconscious its not always hard to miss i am doing it now, in fact but i have also been focusing on a very specific context such as this forum discussion i am not harrassing you in the name of evil atheism everywhere thats not my gig at all i also know i am henpecking you like yer momma and papa it was a decision i made to be this way, here, now i had to barf somewhere, too but tried to keep it more closely related to why i felt i needed to barf in the first place im actually trying to help UP-level the dialogue around here without always having to run through a gauntlet of scopes and knives i would prefer things to be more brotherlylike but that would require a more open equal way of interacting as a first measure, too not the darwinian discourse that usually takes place again im not sure why its mostly not clear to you but mostly clear to not only a few others again...thanks for the clink

then dodge distract evade...like a smeagol with some kind of obsession no, i dont know you, garth i am addressing your written behaviour with my written behaviour which is neither you nor i but what comes out of us all yer whining and crying and pitching a fit about religion and things that confuse you... yes indeed get over it get over it get over it especially "it" cuz you too, are the proud owner of a boundless heart, imo you just havent unwrapped it all the way yet and try picturing me saying this as an atheist, if it makes you feel better, and helps you see

ha. i AM coming back from a vacation, Chief. and to participate in this thread, specifically and btw...just because YOU dont understand me (or care to), doesnt make me crazy, dude in fact, that is kind of a crazy way to be, imo ..."i dont undertand you, therefore you hafta get a grip for my sake..." classic dodge to go with your lame advice nice try...slick...but you dont do fake being pious very well, either "what? what? i was just simply saying...." yeah...right thanks for clarifying your intentions but your unbelief does NOT apply to every time religious language is invoked and your opinion of religion does NOT cover every kind of religious dialogue

because, for starters, that phrase "the time of christ" does NOT equal what you imply that it doesnot to me, not to many yes, and no, for more reasons you probably care to hear.. - for one: finding out what one means when they say "God" seems higher priority than premature blah blah - another: the notion that "god" is some "thing" here or there does not cover all concepts of "god" - and then there is all kinds of other stuff... again, comparing apples and oranges. and its not that simplebut also, making a very naive assumption that nothing improved in any category whatsoever or that the "dark ages" is some sort of monolithic singular event with one linear cause and effect event besides, evolution is a fox trot affair. it rises in waves and leaps at times, often including periods of evolutionary regression, which provides oomph for more leaps and like ive said before...but you continue to ignore...rational rugged individualistic thought evolved from the limits of mythic family structures...but this new stage has its own limits, which has produced higher (more effective) structures, which also have their new limits but overall, the earlier structures do remain vital, for reasons you often seem quite disinterested in. but a lot of it has to do with healthy community behaviour, and healthy childlike behaviour as they come through the increasing higher structures (just as rational thought and behaviour gets more valuable as it comes through even higher structures (such as greater equality, more inclusive rights)) geo, i think yer a very smart guy. most clear with yer intent, of the skeptical and cynical crowd maybe try reading and thinking outside of your comfort zone or something i repeat...not all mentioning of "god" is the same thing though i will agree that the flat groupthink mythic family aspects of culture and the flat narcissistic personal magic friend aspects of culture are getting out of hand, and are clashing with a lot of flat conventional wisdom right now (which has a lot to do with the limits of all parties involved, when they are flat) like ive said all along skepticism is a vital part of our overall being i promote greater skepticism but in a way that does not reduce "truth" but rather expands it i have never said skepticism is to be marginalized i love a really sharp set of knives

ha! yet most all that comes out of his mouth is "crap! crap! crap! crap! crap!"who cant see the "poop" everywhere the elephant is in the room, garth and your posts are that room so i am going to return the favor and crap on you, too ...say "cheese" did you notice that the word "infidel" has not been used here by anyone, except YOU? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? i tell ya, all this may be "normal" behaviour to you, dude which is a travesty btw - i never called skepticism "poopy" either i dont even believe that and i dont even think yer an infidel atheist or rather, that being one is wrong or evil heck, i am an infidel atheist, too but im not gonna badger the *%^#* out of someone over it i just think yer rude and getting ruder, and disrupt the flow of conversation, overall but somehow simply cannot will not admit that you are responsible for it you reduce and mock and ridicule to cover your true reasons for posting (unless ridicule and mockery are your only intent...either way..it sucks) so, i am intentionally in your face being rude, dude because i think your very specific manner stinks up the place consider my behaviour an exaggeration of your behavoiur in a funhouse mirror i think its more about a sense of style and greater respect for everyone including youself for gawd's sake please learn a new note realize that not every conversation started is your personal playground to crack beer jokes though you may even think it is your patriotic right and duty to do so there is some more bs...you know itfake pious crap, too this thread never had a chance from the moment you touched it yep. like i said above wild-eyed war-painted GWB-style over what i see as massively disruptive behaviour at least i own my crap yes...i am being a mean nasty bonehead because i too, have had it, and am also sick to my stomach and i wish i could vomit on your lap right now like yer drunken date toasting beers in order to insult and devalue someone's opinions... is the same as getting "panties tied in a wad" its just that one of these is more fake and i tell ya, overall you make the same mistake as the other guys over and over again by misunderstanding the subject matter and shooting off yer mouth yall jumped the gun on this thread based mostly on illusions in your own head im not sure if its because your too lazy to investigate things or have simply given up looking for anything altogether either way, im sure it takes a lot lot lot less energy to respond the way you do like taking the easy way out i am here to ask you to stop thinking you have the right to push blame for your suggestive hmm hmm behaviour onto anyone else, while you needle away at a conversation... (like i am doing now) accusations of insanity and mental illness and worthlessness suck especially if the loudest mouths are ignorant and no longer interested in the subject matter which has as much to do with psychology and perception as it does spirituallity and religion overall, i think garth just likes to banter a lot a lot a lot which is not always called for, or welcome, imo

this is a big part of where i think you are being dishonest, my friend cuz i basically agree with your overall arguments here but it DOES NOT always apply to every use of religious language yet you keep repeating it like it DOES always apply...like a broken record which is dishonest, even if you are deceiving yourself in this, you are ignorant, imo and dishonest about the possibility of your own ignorance your refusal to address your own slick reductionism is also dishonesty in this regard, imo also, your persistance to repeat yourself is telling, imo and your refusal to address this kind of stuff and how it tends to shut down dialogue that might be meaningful to others imo, Clay's notion of a "boundless heart" has very little to do with what you argue against and you either dont know it, or refuse to acknowledge it, or something this is also dishonest, imo regardless, you keep pooping on a table where some folks wish to sit and break bread in peace and you seem quite oblivious to where and how you are confused about the actual subject matter and more or less oblivious of the actual intentions of many if not most of the participants (yet keep claiming you know them, and that your reduced versions are somehow adequate)

Sudo, why do you bother? really? you talk about brutal honesty, yet... you are so dishonest about this subject in so many ways, one could dedicate an entire thread to it and you basically only repeat your same limited bitter reductionist story ...which, btw, is so textbook and typical of one who is highly uninformed as to what science has discovered regarding human thought and behaviour and consciousness ...i am almost afraid to tell you (not that you would listen to a punk like me) i mean, what is at stake here, for you, anyway? what keeps you hounding and picking away at the conversation with no new information and new point of view? and for as much you like to poop and spit on the tables other people have set your truer intent is still hidden behind your suggestively loaded questions which is just creepy, imo btw-did you read the cynic entry on the wikip? doesn't that pretty much sum up what you probably look and sound like to others? or can you even see yourself from the perspective of others? btw - i would still like to have that conversation on the boundless heart some day but all it takes is one "wailing banshee" to shut down the whole thing (according to the studies) to finally see that there is no god as described by the mythic believers is a good thing, but it produces its own new problems, which requires even newer structures of consciousness to solve (if they are even allowed to come...which, in cynical doctrines, are not...). and so, depending on how one comes to this stage, here are two extreme interpretations of the same conclusions: 1) there is no mythic god, and this is horrible news, and i am ....ed off at everything and everyone 2) there is no mythic god, and this is good news, because that was not what most of the traditions were talking about anyway to one, the value of myth remains, as well as the ability for social activity and sharing and wishing for things together... to the other, our personal mythic self suffers, and maybe we can hardly stand the thought of breaking a wishbone... basically, something was broken on the way up jacob's ladder, and it comes back to haunt us til we comeback down to deal with it (which typically means making the cause of the anger a "mine" rather than an "it" that you blame on "other") ... socks, i really like your own words on it: Reminds me of what has often been called a "book of God's memory" in many traditions. The view that everything that ever has been simply always still is underneath. In other words...in one sense, how nothing ever goes away. It is all just added/consumed...universally, which means this one "tree" is huge huge huge and blossoming very rapidly right now ...always getting more huge...this is the awesome might and terror of god ...where answers naturally get dramatically less simple as creation/evolution marches on (though, thank god our capacity to process the info tends to increase, too) Ive also heard it called the "Akashic" record, in some old stories. The notion that what is, simply is, and always will be, just like the Bible stories try to get at here and there ...even skeptics might agree on this one In one sense (in some places in the texts) what some of the ancients were often referring as "God" is also this very "tree." This one single thing that simply is if you simply include everything...every every every thing but that is still only part of the story because the question remains...who or what is it that looking at this grande "it?" and when you wrote this: ..it reminded me of how the this "one tree" is best observed. And that is from a timeless, choiceless, radically neutral perspective that can be defined as presence, really. An infinite, wide open, clearing..."nothingness" and "emptiness" are other words often used, but more hindered by stigmas, it seems this is the condition that predates the big bang this is the condition that fills every cell and molecule Here and now, there is no past or future, both are just useful illusions in our head (or illusions that torment, in many cases) Each moment is the only thing that exists is right now, in a sense ...which is always everything when we can fully relax into this, we are witnessing with the very "eye of God" the prophets were referring to only, it is no longer a mere mythic otherworldly place anymore, but a native generic perspective where even our own thoughts and feelings are not us, but objects that arise in this clearing that we also are in other words...we are not merely our thoughts, we not merely our bodies, but we are also that which is simply observing and feeling them like when the kid and the others said "i am" its a burning bush fer sure, cuz in a sense, the great Everything becomes that burning bush in your perception all of reality becomes a fiery inferno engulfing itself nothing is real, from this state of pure "witnessing awareness" (which is still only part of the story...more later on that, perhaps) and it can be shocking to find out how most (even some biblical) ancients used very hard drugs to get here (like those altars of heavy heavy incense in tents, or some serious tobacco soup in peru) but some also did it by mere meditation, intense prayer, intense diets, fasting, various yogas and dreaming stuff and other methods of deeper interior exploration some of them...practiced ever cleaner and cleaner ways to literally stop their thinking in order to dwell in this thinnest highest state of awareness ...or maybe stay awake and aware during their dream states and deep dreamless states varieties of forms of mystic behaviour span all cultures and traditions, regardless of language, often producing the ground of both new science and new religion and as "history trucks along" (in other words...as this endless "tree" keeps violently exploding in every NOW) we are always adding new and crazier ways to reach this state of timeless choiceless awareness in fact, we probably have developed some of the most easy and direct methods to date this boundless heart, as clay so aptly called it, is a real state of mind and being that can be demonstrated, but requires a deeper subjective participation... but often times, all it takes is one person to effectively object, and the almost no one can get there ive read/heard of a variety of classifications of mysticisms: (most of which, many of us here have experienced and continue to) - nature mysticism - psychic and subtler mysticism - causal mysticism - formless mysticism - nondual mysticism (which includes all previous) again, these are not magic or mythic, but post-rational post-conventional states and stages of normal human awareness. though as human consciousness evolves, newer states and stages continually emerge to deal with the limits of the previous of course, there is a lot more to say on such a subject but that is what feel out of my head from what you wrote … to add, i think where people can really lost with it all and get very very bitter is when they are stuck with 3rd person of 3rd person perspectives and finding out that God was nothing all along and it comes across as real bad news that cant be processed rather than the good news it really is (once the language is unravelled a bit, and more brutal honesty (like shadow work) is applied) and another christmas wish of mine, i guess is to find ways to help bitter atheists become happier atheists by seeing the good news of greater inter-subjectivity and more skillfull ways of including the mythic and magic states and stages of life and find a reason to sit still and shut up and listen long enough to experience the boundless heart for themselves ...basically perform such an injuction for peer review, or admit you've never known or bothered to though i can understand why someone would become afraid of this, by mistaking it for mere mythic group behaviour

ha. yeah. sounds to me like something someone says when they are more or less stuck in a mystical state partially very very true but sorely lacking very very much

hi socks i'm not familiar with Henri Bergson, but i found this looks like a heck of a nice read, with all kinds of white rabbits but just in skimming it and going by what you have written here looks one of many many western mysticish thinkers and writers of his time his connection to William James is interesting, too especially considering that that second paragraph on the mysticism entry: "Mystics claim to experience intuitive knowledge of transcendent dimensions, beyond the phenomenal or material concrete objects of ordinary perception. The mystic claims to see things that are not part of ordinary experience. William James used the words "ineffable" (which means that something cannot or should not be spoken) and "noetic" (from the Greek νοῦς nous: "relating to consciousness or intuition"), to describe the mystical experience." as far as the rest of your post... as far as what i know of the states and stages of oneness and timelessness and whatnot.. ...i think it all relates very strongly to Clay's notion of a boundless heart a conversation i am also interested in having in more depth, some day though in a way that allows for more patience and curious ease with each other cuz i think we can also get even more skeptical and very specific with it all if we want, in that kind of space no...i know we can

this might help all yalls in expanding the definitions of Satori's observation: Wikipedia: Mysticism and Wikipedia: Cynicism

maybe it could be said that a mystic explores the inner subjective nature of awareness itself where a scientist specializes at exploring the objective outer perspective both can and do get stuck in their own interpretation of what is becauses neither holds all the keys to "truths of reality," and other silly notions (and then there are all those all kinds of all kinds of all kinds of other things) lol...Satori....yes, im being a very windy idiot also, i enjoy impressionism as much as i enjoy photography maybe stand back a bit more...lol thunder and lightning faboom faboom faboom

ok, look… ive been hanging around here for years, just like all yalls I owe a lot of my life to this place, the experiences, the information, and the interactions that happen here (whether it am in them or not) learned a lot of lessons, and have made a lot of friends we share cultures, religious experiences same books, same arguments yada yada yada no? this venue is truly and personally valuable to many of us, and increasingly so, as life goes on here and there i also happen to know a thing or two about verbal abuse and manipulation as group behaviour, and different causes of family and community discord and disfunction so as for lightening up because of the christmas blues… i am hear to say that these dudes aggravate the christmas blues manipulative suggestive accusations argumentative reductionists often gleeful tormentors character assassination interpersonal sarcasm like worm-tongue cynical repetition masked intent yada yada this is not merely a point of view, per se but hellbent on getting others to feel responsible for their own disowned crap they might even be comfortable with how and why they are being this way and become more and more unconscious of their own behavior as they do it and maybe even more and more unconscious of how it effects others and better and better at finding ways to blame it on you and me always reducing all experiences and experiencers to as little as possible its just gross, and getting more gross as the years roll by, imo i also happen to think that there are many huge differences between men and women one of which, is how men typically do not take criticism from a woman and almost always blame it on mere moodiness or bitchiness but when a wise, caring, experienced woman stands up and calls em names her criticism may not be true, but the reasons for it sure the hell are also, its actually much harder for (and on) such a woman to dish out verbal abuse not to mention how she will most likely be dismissed for merely being deceived by feelings (which are also recognized as a legit form of intelligence) typically takes another guy to say something which makes it hard if the men are passive types in the first place (bullies prey on these types, more than others) my standing up is due to reasons beyond this thread because this thread never had a chance and, imo, is a perfect example and so, ex, imo, you don’t have to apologize for anything you wrote here or even apologize for apologizing i want so bad to talk to clay and whomever about the boundless heart even if i have to eat these guys for lunch in order to re-open the dialogue i will not apologize for this or my request for some transparency without all the stupid reduction that immediately kills the value of dialogue call it my Xmas wish for this corner of the forum addressed directly to Sudo, George, Garth and whomever else is my Santa, this year please oh please oh pretty please will you friggin learn a few more things! oh, and…unless i get banned for anything ive written (and i just might, which would pretty much suck) i’ll be back later with some more thoughts on the matter but, for everyone’s sake, i would rather not do the tit-for-tat quote and scientifically pick-apart-the-lies-in-court crap til the cows come home (though we could, and it wouldnt get any prettier)… i prefer to eat what they're eating and make a hugely egoic bonehead out of myself, maybe try the butt-naked red white and blue striped wide-eyed crazy man jumping up and down on the friggin table wagging my tongue public display in your face routine til you simply shut up and wilt away…even tho it might not even work btw, i think the value of “i’m just pretending” changes dramatically, depending on the the actual contours of the intent. I can also pretend i am also just a kid (and actually am, compared to most of you) picture me giggling and pointing at the kings’ exposed pee pees and laughing outloud ps…try not to worry bout the kings too much. and im not as concerned about them, for their sake…they’ll be fine... After all, they don’t even believe in a boundless heart. maybe someone will even show them the kindness they deserve, if their heart will allow it. im more concerned with how it simply kills communication and the flow of better information, here, now, and quite often. and i think whats really sad, is that after a while, we can all just get so used it, and defend it as “normal,” if even in order to help feel more sane in light of all the accusations contrary

hell hath no fury...they say...damn of course, even the Kid said it was ok to try and save an foot from a hole on a holiday... :blink: in short...this entire final statement is pure Sudo...who pretends to do these things for people he feels he is intellectually superior towhich is good, because to make believe and pretend is an important early early stage of every human's development, as well as an early early stage of our collective human evolution and a large part of why we do silly things like lift a glass in toast to things we wish we had, or wish would come true...and a way to thank something or someone we cannot see, for the good fortune of leaving savagery and solely selfish boneheadedness behind...if even for a day. all stages of evolution arise to deal with the limitations of the previous though owing their very existance to the previous stages which remain quite valid and vital to continued growth for example, the way the rational rugged individuals had to arise from the limits of the mythic family and the way post-modern pluralism arose to overcome the limits of stone cold convention and the way more creative and playful and informative networking structures try and arise from the wider open heart space made previously this story is doomed to continue, of course considering how dang stubborn all this seems to be god or evolution or dna or spirit or anthropomorphic fields or whatever... or all of the above and then some