sirguessalot

too true, too true...and then some. language and definition and concept is just a tool, and never the same as the actual substance of what we speak of. faith, stages, states, moods, attitudes, levels, etc... even then, we havent really left english yet what really helps a lot, for example, is when you know that I know that you know that we are not attached to our own labels when we are talking. We become more free to speak of spiritual things without all the usual conflict. another thing to keep in mind is that we can use this spectrum to describe/find our general stage of being but we can also have and experience specific talents and altered states that temporarily "spike" beyond our established stage (such as from illness, drugs, fasting, falling in love, fame...you name it) but how we interpret or explain our peak experiences to ourselves and others may always come thru whatever our established "stage of faith" is in other words...if i see and feel some angelic presence, but i am mostly egocentric or ethnocentric, i may turn around and say that god has chosen me above everyone else or that the angel has come as a sign of my group's superiority (much like how vpw misunderstood the nature and purposes of whatever visions and insights he actually had) yeah, i am speaking in somewhat old mythic terms, but not very uniformly, though, either. cuz i dont want to give the impression that what ive written is some lock tight thing. so i kept it kind loose and informal that way and...it would probably take me weeks and months to compose even something small and "perfectly worded" and also cuz i rather enjoy the language of myth and magic, as much as science and beyond and...i dont want to put anyone to sleep with some alien jargon but if we take this back to the scriptural Genesis model, perhaps we could say that these stages of faith "came from nowhere," one by one on each of the days of the lord...each building upon the previous, and answering for the lack of the previous but even that is more free and easy ways of describing such things because perhaps we could also say that all 7 kinds of faiths came on the 7th day and everything prior was of those things i mentioned being below the spectrum (such as the "faith" of a star, or moon, or blade of grass, or sea slug) but regardless, i think that how we can recognize such wavelenghts in life NOW both within ourselves, and out in society and culture is perhaps more important and valuable than finding out "what Moses really exactly meant" (even tho advances in research and history and lineage are also valuable ways to keep people from pawning off opinions as accurate as well as reclaim/preserve some of the authentic wisdom of the actual traditional lineages) yeah, kinda. which is what we may also want. something i try to keep in mind, is how ALL of these "faiths" are present in each of us now to some degree or other whether we are waking or asleep but deep dreamless sleep is definately where we are "forced" into the 7th state, whether we know it or not, or like it or not, or are "awake and aware" during it or not, etc... (most of us sleep thru it) but ideally, i think we can practice resting in this 7th stage of faith throughout our waking AND sleeping lives and ultimately, i think if we can see our engagement with this spectrum as a continuum, where we are not only ascending the "stairs" (eros) but descending as well (agape) poor vpw could only descend from where he was, which was the first 3 rungs and his attitudes towards death and hell kept him from going anywhere else i would even go as far as to say he was typical of carnal monochromatic man in that he was both very afraid and jealous of higher stages, and considered any expression of them to be a part of his pantheon of evil spirits come to deceive good question, allan i would say...all of them...and then some i think what i wrote to Danny points to some things worth considering also, i think that if you look at one of the books where Jesus faith is MOST revealed (imo) (interestingly enough called "The Revelation of Jesus Christ") you will see within the first few chapters that his faith included the full spectrum from the initial image of him with a rainbow about his head to the 7 churches, to the 7 angels to the imagery of the 7 eyed lamb to the seven seals (of the inward man) yada yada... :) sorry if i come across as too long winded for anyone maybe just read slower, or just ask me wtf i am talking about etc

man o man, thanks you guys (sniff sniffle) for helping me feel at home

My purpose for this thread is manifold. For one, I simply need to express what I’ve come to know before it “burns a hole in my pocket,” and I do so with the hope that it contributes to whatever “awakening from the dead” we are each and all presently a part of. Also, I feel a strong need to address an important angle that seems missing from most doctrinal dialogues, not only down here in this basement, but in the dialogues of most religious culture today. And this particular void, I believe, is one of the major contributors to our lack of discernment in spiritual matters in TWI and beyond. Perhaps you will see it too. And honestly…my hope here is to also engage you (typically male) prolific doctrinal posters…who always also seem to avoid my threads, and have even gone as far as to suggest that I am too hard to understand (although without ever actually asking me to clarify). So, what I will try to do here is produce a clear and easy primer for what I hope will be a lively and mutually enlightening discussion. In other words...Feel free to ask me what the heck i'm yakkin about. :) ok… It seems to me, that the most debilitating factor in most doctrines, is the monochromatic nature of their foundational concepts. Which to me, says carnal…and as in carnivore…and only able to see color-stripped black-and-white (mere good versus evil) versions of truth/reality. And I think this monolithic approach to interpreting scripture and life in general is a huge part of the same old cause for failures and spiritual ignorances and confusion, and man’s inhumanity against man ever since we walked out of Eden. So, as a primer for contemplation, what I want to do is present a brief and very simple summary of what a spectrum of faith might look like…tho, keep in mind that the map is never the same as the territory, just as scripture is never the same as the inward revelation of the people who wrote them. Also, this list can and does apply to an individual, just as much as to an entire culture And…the actual “bandwidth” most likely extends both above and below this crude and limited list. 1) The first faith we find is in our own lack and need. And so God is our personal magic wish-granter. “The power of believing” is a mantra of this basic babyfood level of faith, when all we want to do is get get get get something to take care of our suffering. Although, some children are taught NOT to want things, and so this vital faith is smashed at an early age, and can never be built upon. But also, some old men never leave this faith, and have given the world its selfish and violent warlords and narcissist egomaniacs. 2) The second faith that came to the world, is the faith in others. And so God is a mythic distant otherness who grants our wishes, but also often only grants it to our special chosen group. This faith is only one step beyond selfish, because we have simply learned how to be selfish in our group, rather than selfish alone. Racism is the hallmark of this faith. As is modern fundamental religion, where both God and devil are mythic “other.” 3) The third faith that came to the world, is the faith in reason and logic. Beyond magic, beyond myth, America was founded on this kind of faith. Science and industry are based on this kind of faith. Faith in the tools of skepticism and proof. The great independent man of the west has this kind of faith. Rugged individualism and economics rely heavily on this kind of faith. It is my opinion that vpw/twi/pfal/tvt (and most christianity today) has never really moved beyond these first 3 faiths, and even only barely touched the 3rd with those feeble attempts at "mathematical precision in scriptural interpretation." 4) The fourth faith that came to the world, is the faith in a kind of love beyond death. It is the great equalizer of all, and that faith which deals with the grim reaper and hell itself. It is faith in equal rights, and lends to greater medicine, women’s rights, children’s rights, and gets beyond racism, scriptural or otherwise. Imo, this kind of faith was beyond twi doctrine, but not beyond all individuals in twi. This is also a big part of the level of faith that jesus introduced..but not all it, of course. This where we know how to die with grace. Or perhaps even to "die before we die." 5) The fifth faith that came to the world, is the faith in integration.. It is the faith that comes once the death grip on previous faiths are let go. Beyond selfishness, beyond family, beyond proof, and beyond fear of death itself, this faith brings us a freedom to reshape our faith at will without all the terror. Greater free flow of information is a hallmark of this level of faith. Higher science and a rapidly increased capacity to know. Increased complexity does not confound, but enriches. Innovation abounds as "miracles and wonders" 6) The sixth faith is more abstract than before. This faith can see and feel the generalities, now that one has allowed all info to flow free. But this faith does not study the nature of water itself, but observes the movement of the ocean. This faith sees and FEELS the trends and patterns. This is where dreams and visions are observed for subtler value. This is where the inner artist lives, and where soul meets spirit. Our ability to predict things increase, because of our greater awareness of trends. 7) The seventh faith is the faith in silence and stillness. The highest reaches of consciousness, and an awareness of our own true spiritual nature. This is where we meet God, and from where we can observe all our previous faiths as they still exist within us and the world. This last faith is the simplest of them all, and that which holds them all. But not only “the top,” but the actual ground of all the others. This faith is the Witness, where we are to rest. Of course, I have just described a mere ascending order which is only half (or less) of the story. and its one thing to learn the basic notes but quite another to learn how to play a song and quite another to learn how to play on time and in tune and even quite another to learn how to write a new song and yet even quite another to learn how to live in harmony like the good book says we can and should ok what say you, peeps?

of course, i also realize that to some pfal adherents and ilk any notion of inquiring as to greater possibilities might come across as if i'm some sort of devilish agent trying to seduce people away from God or some such thing if so.. please forgive but also, if so... do please reconsider your freedom to ask cuz this crazy friggin world truly needs you to be BOTH wise AND harmless and perhaps even more so than ever before peace...

hey Mike for the record, there were 2 questions in my post the first question was regarding what is possible and in hindsight, i now think it might have been better not to have asked the second question

oh, i dunno, dooj sometimes i wish i could schedule a specific time to demonstrate what i am talking about but with my shedule these days, i dont want to make a promise i cant keep so im thinking that if i start this thread and let people know how im simply almost always ready and capable of demonstrating what im getting at ...almost at the drop of a hat i think a session can come together as spontaeneously as the regular chat styles and as there is no set time required the other styles i am thinking of can be demonstrated in a relatively short period of time so, i think...just hit me up if you see me in chat which is usually only evenings and weekends these days but not always just then, either and depending on the depth and degree of interest arising here i can start thinking about more specific scheduling and especially hit me up if you see that there are multiple people in one of the sub-rooms ...i can quickly debrief what is going on in a private chat btw...a very helpful thing to remember is that during any such session (if one should get going) that we are taking turns, kinda, or using some other pattern based on whatever pattern we've agreed upon and so some will probably learn most quickly whats going on if you just sit and watch a bit anyway i hope that helps without making too much of a ruckus about a new little toy

yeah, thanks, cm...deep but easy tom, mstar...if it helps, just know that there is a big difference between the large-party-all-chat-rapidly-at-once-over-the-top-of-each-other-free-for-alls (which i also love, btw) and the kind of sessions im taking about also, these kinds of sessions are not private or exclusive sessions, by any means all are invited and we take turns typing, which means slow writers have all the time they need but also, one can simply observe the process or even simply stop it by interrupting also, we are free to invent our own new and different ways to play along anyway, when i get home later...i'll see if i can find and post a link to the previous thread peace, +ODD

just a thought...as yall plot and plan how yer gonna save the world again again again just how possible might it be, that there IS, has always been, and will always be a vast vast vast vast vast vast amount of stuff going on with people and places and truths outside of your personal experiences? does it even matter any more?

ah ok... here is a shortcut otherwise on the main forum page just above the list of people in the chatroom is a line that says "Enter the CHAT ROOM" same thing

ha looks like we just missed each other

dang nevermind all the peeps i was thinking of for this who were online when i wrote it all suddenly vanished why do i feel like i farted in a church?

and by deep...i guess i mean doctrinal or spiritual, or religious, or philosophical, or theological or whateva ya wanna call it not better, just something different i see some of you usual late-nighters logged in ya know...for the heady stuff about gods and demons the universe heavens deaths spirits hells whatnot... cuz one thing i like about the chat is the live nature of it and what a different level of conversation that affords ok...so i'll stick my neck out and start by starting a room and staying logged in for an hour or so tonight see if anyone wants to take me up on the invite and if not tonight...then some other night..whateva if the idea even interests anyone maybe we can even revisit the chat session styles a bunch of us tested a bit last spring but rather than set up a specific time or subject maybe it is easier to just log in hang out see what happens btw no hidden agenda here my intent is to find different ways to compare maps of experience

hey hey wishing you a happy birthday, Lindy! and much fortune in the year ahead and wishing i was in yer neck of the woods again so we could sit for another cup of tea

hi Linda and Chatty :) thanks for the feedback i live less than an hour from Prineville, in Bend. and even tho im a native oregonian who was also partly raised in central Oregon, i'm still considered one of the big city invaders to some of the locals which i can understand...therz quite a land grab going on here in the "new west" and a lot of retirees taking advantage of the high and dry climate and sadly enough...gentrification seems to follow the artists which is why i also strongly support the local rural artists even tho my work is more contemporary i am hoping the contemplative aspect of my work resonates with the retirees of course, some of the elders of the Warm Springs injun rez just nod their head to all this and say "yep, now you are kinda beginning to feel and know what weer talkin about" so...i guess we'll see how it goes anyway...very nice to know you smiled, LZ and if you think they might be interested, maybe forward a link for the Sip & Savor to your cousins (and ex-husband...depending on how that is, of course) and Chatty...i'd like to post part of my response to your email here, if you dont mind "I just love the way you expressed all that. Truly. Such quality feedback in like manna to me. Because part of the theories that I study, is that artist, art, and viewer ALL play a part in the constantly unfolding interpretation of the work. And so…your contribution is an actual extension and continuation of the orginal work. Thus, art is always still a work in progress, and you are now a collaborator…bwah ha ha"

:) howdy gscers! it seems as if 2006 is hitting the ground running for my artistic path and so i thought i'd post an update here in this groovy little corner of the cafe in this groovy little corner of the w.w.w. where some of my favorite peeps like to hang out and if this should spark any interest in any sort of artistically bent conversation i'd like to try and stick around a bit before i'm off again to you-know-who knows where ...or some other such thing grace and peace, +ODD oh yeah...duh...here is a link to my online gallery and here is a link to this schwanky lil shindig where i will be showing next weekend...just in case anyone happens to find themselves in beautiful middle-of-nowhere Central Oregon next week

hey doodleys something some of yall might find useful... Home Office Ideas

as i understand what i think you are getting at, i think you are right on the money, TL without a doubt, there exists a classic spectrum of felt/known experiences of god, God, and GOD although, at any given moment, how we interpret and reinterpret this or that experience can and does often vary dramatically what i think we most often lack are more neutral and useful languages/ways/styles of sharing and comparing maps of our spiritual (and non-spiritual experiences)

i think this really points at it all from a whole nuther very important angle its an oldie but a goody...as we used to say worth a thread (or 10) all its own i mean, it can be a leap to assume for a moment there is no God but another to assume for a moment that God is NOT ethnocentric and never has been ...especially as it pertains to OUR being ethnocentric in our approach to the lineages of the world's spiritual traditions ...and in how we decide who is IN, and who is OUT, of the various classifications of whatever model of goodness and evilness we rely on

thought i'd throw this into the mix: a very good article on 'Esotericism' on Wikipedia Krys...i'm not sure what to say about you wrote...but i am so so glad you wrote it...truly because i think it speaks to a lot of things and as you know, i dont come out of the gsc basement very often but correct me if im wrong, that was a some sort of heartfelt shout you put out there anyway, i do hope someone can honor your requests i can see that there is a truckload of hints of a truckload of taboos being spread out here and if there is to be any public humiliation to be had i do hope it is mutual and kind and shared by all the kind that is full of joyful tears and renewed hope if ya know what i mean... we are always all in it together, whether we like it or not and big or small, everything comes and goes in waves, it seems

i was just thinking of that statement you made: "i wonder though if it took you over 20 years to forgive yourself for something you never did wrong" and thought i'd take it a few steps back because it reminded me of a few things like how people can and do pass on specific ways of blaming and forgiving in ways that continue for hundreds or thousands of years

thanks you guys...many mutual things going on here and sorry, e...for wondering off like that with your wondering.. lemme take another swing at what i think yer getting at... i think that points to what i meant by 'cascades of crimes' and how injury can go from bad to worse to catastrophic real fast the more layered and stacked and tangled things become navigating this knotted mess is a big part of our life's work ...all of our wisdom and peace and salvation is hiding in there and its the only knotted mess we have to work with and everyone has one i think that as we, the people, find more reasons and ways and means to simply trust each other more in everyday interpersonal ways our interest and ability to comb out the knots will increase because we will be able to see that we see each other...which helps us see ourself when we can more openly and honestly compare and verify our maps of experience ... btw, i wonder if it took an entire of culture of people over 2000 years to forgive themselves for something they never did wrong...

yeah. i saw that line. which is why i called it a soft conclusion anyway, nevermind... carry on

no, i meant your conclusion about templelady's thoughts and intentions... where did you get the information to come to those soft conclusions? as it seems to me.. being one of your kinder inquisitors TL simply asked you about 'stepping stones' but you respond as if she asked you whether you are motivated by spirit or flesh (which she did not) then, you went on to further reduce the possible outcomes of all possible meaning in the conversation and proceeded to imply that you have read her thoughts or feelings or something somehow under the impression that she is trying to trick you im just wondering if you think it is possible that you are responding to inaccurate information about TL's? motives ... and yeah...2 years or so sounds about right time is flyin

hey mike... long time no jibber jab, eh? hey...thinking about ya, dude reading along and something caught my eye so ok, im just curious...as usual where did all this information come from? just this how did you come down to such a narrow range of conclusions?

sounds very true to melets see if i can go there from here: not in this case. i knew him. and i pretty much blamed him from the get go. because there was obviously no reason for him to do it. and so he was to blame, as a person. he did it. and he had a habit of becoming a real mindless violent brawling $&*#, like a lot of people i knew and know. i also blamed the crowd for watching, and the cops for being corrupt bastards. i knew about them too. tons of history there. i blamed the hell's kitchen i grew up in for making this guy such a dangerous scrapper. cuz it did. but as life goes on, more things are believed, more things are said, more books are read, life is broken into more and more pieces, the blame simply spreads and continues to spread like wildfire, moving from person to person to gods and spirits and devils and demons and angels and freewill and fate and family and friends and technology and history and politics and race and money and psychology and drugs and booze and music and sexuality and nature and art and atoms and food and dna and biology and stars and moons and sounds and light and on and on and on and on... because i find that all of these things are to blame, too i/we/it/they all have a hand in it, it seems in this sense blame can be good blames within blames within blames like reasons within reasons within reasons cause behind cause behind cause we can eat the fish and spit out the bones but down in the nitty gritty of it all to blame or not to blame, in any personal life situation... to forgive or not to forgive... ...i think largely depends on how and why and where and when and what and who is saying or doing it and why and depends a lot on how and where each one of us draws the lines of our actual sense of self ...which is closer to where i think 2gray was pointing with his recent posts i think it helps to be able to speak and be clear regarding both interior and exterior realities as they relate to each other...not as they seem to contradict and confuse each other