sirguessalot

oh man..that would be way too cool to chat with you live again, karmic...hashish or no hashish even if it is only hypertextually live but...there is nothing to sign on this one, of course rather, its we who are ourselves who are each the teachers, the class, and the crew (but I know you already know that...doh) and so...all you have to do sign up for a deep chat with me...is look for me in the chat rooms and pop in and if i'm not already at it, say "hey, dude...lets chat about something deep" or some such thing

correction...and big duh..doh..whatever...and its too late to edit my post ...Live did not work with Johnny Cash on their version of his song

well...how nice to see you again Roy :) off the top of my head... a tennis ball for you to smack back to me if you like... i dont think there really is such a thing as a straight line not in "Nature," at least and even when man makes them they are only relatively straight or relatively small lines or a radical quantum of countless curves but there are direct lines which i believe is probably closer to a spiritual meaning of "straight" and very curved lines can still be quite perfect, still not having a bend in them but even then everything eventually bends just as everything "sins" it seems God makes it all work out thank God ... as far as poles i really dig what yer saying and could probably yak for days about that one but ill say this for now cuz its all i can think of at the moment as that there are countless poles and polarities in the body and soul in people and the world and the various kinds of bodies universe and a countless number of points too with which to draw cardinal directions from but if we can find that ultimate ground we will have an ultimate reference point and will better be able to handle the extraordinary complexity of what IS in our hearts and minds without wigging out over all the paradoxes that may confound us when east and west unite and the north and south are no longer at odds and up is both down and out and down is both in and out... ...and it doesnt bother you anymore... ...maybe we can finally say we have left middle earth behind without having gone anywhere at all

seeing as how the manifestations came up....if anyone is interested if am gonna stick my neck out and point yall towards a related thread in the dungeon rather than just waste as much server space on it here here is the thread and here is the part i wanted to copy here:

personally, doctrinally, practically, i would answer...a constant "no" and ive had some doozies, believe me and i would also add more questions to Mike's question such as... ...should we ever stop REinterpreting their own profoundly undeniable experiences? or...is it even possible to stop reinterpreting our experiences? or...is it possibly even spiritually dangerous to stop reinterpreting our experiences? etc...

i think that because pfal has its own sort of structure its gives the impression of soundness which impresses people who are in need of sound, simple concepts but this soundness only stands up when it is not compared to concepts outside of itself just as a well thought out fiction world will be a good story to the degree that it doesnt break its own rules also, concepts are never the same as the territory they describe and until we can get off our arse and get beyond mere conceptualizations of God we are subservient to our own minds and thoughts in an a$$backwards reality men, mostly, have this problem, it seems stuck in our head as if it matters more than the actual felt realities of the world and pfal had us more focused on the past (fall of man) and future (gathering together) than the present moment which is where God lives, imo yep. because the intent and awareness of the one doing the speaking, changes everything about what is said if i say "God is love," or you say "God is love," or he or she says "God is love" well...there can be 3 or 4 different truths going on behind the same wording and more questions need to be asked of the speaker's intended meanings (if the speakers can even handle people asking them questions)

one thing i would like to say about the speaking in tongues and intepretation, tho in terms of the spectrum is that i now think that the speaking in tongues of acts and corinthians was no where near the same as the prayer practices as we were taught in pfal (tho that kind of thing is beneficial, but more like an esoteric and overblown contemplative practice) but to speak in tongues, is to speak of life in terms of a spectrum of realities and to interpret tongues, is simply to explain how this might work not a supernatural power, per se but a big big step into our greater god-given/inherent capacity for greater transmission of understanding between humans via dialogue .... also, i have seen that another enlightening way to use the spectrum is to look at stages of care and concern 1) we care about ourselves 2) we care about our group 3) we care about accomplishment 4) we care about every living thing, including ecological concerns 5) we care about organizing and connecting as much as we can 6) we care about what is new and emerging 7) we care about awareness itself and so take a look at this list as if were 7 switches and consider what it might look like, for example if a person or culture had only switches #2 and #3 on or perhaps only switches #1 and #4 on or perhaps only switch #7 on and so... what is it to be whole? or sound?

Hi Sunesis dang, i guess i shouldnt have said anything about Paul's stuff because that is not easy to explain, for me so much baggage with the words, here and so, a lot of lot of work but here is an old thread on the subject, tho my opinions continue to renew and transform as the days go by and i could do a word study and rewrite it all again tomorrow without flinching much i have found that the maps overlap kinda nicely...but not perfectly...which is perfect, imo as they do with the days of Genesis, and all the rest of the Biblical (and extra-biblical) lists and numerical significances and that the manifestations seem to have very little to do with supernatural toolkits and exclusive special abilities but rather, a deep expression of inherent ordinary human capacities even though they may seem magic and in a sense, really kinda are also, i would probably do better to play hermit for a month (or a year) and write a small book on each of these and they would probably even look quite a bit different than what ive written there and not a precise formula, but more of a poetic way of comparing maps not that i think we should want to stare at maps all day but so we have a better way of navigating the territories of what we think we know and believe but mostly, i think i would leave them in the same order as they sit on the page in the Bible rather than rearrange them the way vpw did in pfal because they seem to build upon each other sequentially, anyway or rather...build around and within and alongside each other

no pressure, Danny, but i do hope you are going to take a pic or two and record something meanwhile, heerz what i found man o man...i just love the electric age

fyi...the big stink about this thing here..is that the band called "Live" already did this version of "I Walk The Line", and Chris's version is almost a damn near copy of it...bald head, clothes, vocals, everything a difference is...Live actually worked with Johnny Cash on their version, and released it before this season of Idol even began btw...dont get me wrong...i think Chris is awesome, and is good enough to win this season, but is gonna be a rock star whether he wins or not...but the producers, or someone, really needs to fess up about how original it is NOT

oh, ok yes, there are great spiritual dangers in life, including spiritual phenom, plus plus plus there are things i would call devilish doctrines, satanic influence, and spirits galore in this dark and twisted crazy world so yes, you are more wrong than you could possibly know on that but i dont think you care to hear what i think about all that, doctrinally, or practically but i do hope you are pleasantly surprised :) and about the other stuff... i think i'll bow out of the thread, like i said unless you ask me

sorry, Mike i wont talk to you any more about spiritual things unless you ask...which you wont, im sure peace, bro :(

who said this, Mike? it was sure as hell not me anyway, sorry man i probably never should have posted anything on this thread

and hey, Mike i hope you know i dont ask you those kinds of things because i want to humiliate you or save anyone from your doctrine etc i really like you a lot, and think you can and are quite brilliant at times and i just think it sucks at how much you require of others in order to fellowship with you

it seems your standard is extreme spiritual danger and fear then, Mike you, being a servent of God...are you still afraid of the devil and death?

the way some rabbis describe it its the divine romance with sacred text at first, all you see is her fingertips peeking out from layers of robes but as you sit, meekly, a little here and a little there more and more layers come off until, after many years, the deeper naked text is revealed its like there are many many books in one and we must go through many disillusionments with the text though each one was necessary point being... if you dont sit long enough you wont see much at all

Mike, well...I am not about to come to any conclusions based on vpw's very very limited experienced with a very very recent and limited sub culture of christianity also...one man's "HUGE storehouse of confusing and contradictory" does not apply to everyone and also...i think sound experience and sound doctrine compliment each other quite well...more of both please

but, and...couldn't this be said of any good old book? or any thing? what you wrote sounds pretty much like what some old rabbis say about the torah or even what happens when someone sits for years with something like Tolkien's work if...there is depth and truth in everything then the longer you sit with it the deeper it goes endlessly, really especially old old old books with a lot of lot of lot of rich and diverse tradition and history

ok...thinking about this topic a bit more and also thinking of it aside from the circle-type chat sessions idea ive noticed that most people go to chat most of the time to just chill and talk about the day catch up on whats going on with who...whatnot which is jazzy cool wonderful, imo God knows i like to yack about food and pets and cars and family and work about as much as anyone but i also like to yack about deep less-tangible things as well such as angels and demons and gods and devils and heavens and hells and dreams and visions, yada yada (although i think we would do well to keep this somewhat light, too ) and so what im trying to figure out...is how to get chatters who are also interested in such things (and i'm sure there are some) to meet in the subrooms so as not to disturb those who want to talk about "real, everyday" things the problems i am facing with this are: 1) too few seem to know how to enter the subrooms 2) few know to look (or even how to look) to see if someone is in a subroom 3) its not always (socially) easy to ask a crowd of ex-cultists "who wants to leave here and go chat about gawd and stuff in another room" without a wide number of misunderstandings so...any suggestions? and again...the reason i am so interested in this..is because i have seen that there are things about live chat that does what the forums do not...which have interesting implications for doctrinal-type discussions...things we've not really even explored yet, imo

man o man trying to stick with the thread a bit i wonder how possible it is that vp (and those he copied from) was mostly completely wrong about the nature of tongues and most of the rest of the manifestations that what happened was perhaps very different in most ways ...just wondering if it is possible that we have forgotten how to wonder such things any more

as one who frequents the dungeon, i am somewhat torn on this one for one, a lot of doctrinal stuff goes on in all forums anyway, it seems its almost like there are multiple doctrinal forums going on also, ive always kinda liked the doctrinal forum being at the fringe at the bottom of the GSC robe so as to avoid posting things in ex-way mainstreet that gets you buried under a pile of hypertextual rocks but that being said...sometimes i would prefer a little stirring up of passions to getting little to no response also...it seems as if the atmosphere of the forums has changed a bit over the years i think it might be good to move doctrinal more up front especially if we can find better ways to compare doctrinal maps without devolving to accusations of possession, such healthier dialogical demonstrations might actually help people grow beyond the exclusivity taught in twi

maybe so...but maybe we should also first ask if "Christ is being preached" in the first place i mean....how can we even know?

btw...i hope my comment about wanting some of the usual doctrinal guys to chime in on this isn't misunderstood by you ladies. there are quite a few women here whom i have come to respect for their minds as much as their hearts. and i would love to hear what you have to say on this as well. its just that i am somewhat amazed at how the guys who usually jump at the chance to declare doctrinal soundness (or unsoundness) continue to pass on this more-or-less ubiquitous subject every time ive brought it up :blink: and another add.. i have found that Paul's listings of both manifestions and fruit seem to line up quite nice with the spectrum, as well but then again...so do the 7 dwarves

Do you think twi taught this so they wouldn't have to explain people's experiences? yes...when it came to spirituallity, twi/pfal was/is in way over its head Or maybe it was a way to prevent us from really been able to establish a true relationship with God? no...not consciously, at least Maybe another way to keep our emotions out of the picture? yes...there was/is such an ignorance regarding the value of emotions (and experience) in twi/pfal Or maybe a way to prevent us from hearing the still small voice? no...not consciously, at least

lol...my grandpa told me that the best way to catch a squirrel..is to sit at the bottom of a tree and act like a nut CM, some of what you wrote reminds me of a few other ways ive seen all this... ...how this spectrum of "faith" can also represent a spectrum of intentions, values, awareness...even a spectrum of morallity ...and again, how this spectrum is not the substance, but more like a scale that can be applied to ANY category a few very crude and loose examples of what im getting at: values... at 1) we may value our own interests above all at 2) we may value our group's interests above all at 3) we may value what is provable above all at 4) we may value equality above all at 5) we may value information above all at 6) we may value creativity above all at 7) we may value all of the "above" God-views... at 1) we may consider God to be a magic wish granter at 2) we may consider God to be a mythic other at 3) we may consider God to be the laws of physics at 4) we may consider God to be universal brotherly love at 5) we may consider God to be language itself at 6) we may consider God to be the force of creativity at 7) we may consider God to be all that which simply is (I AMness) societies... at 1) a society might be ruled by self-proclaimed gods, or ganglords (such as the day of pre-abraham) at 2) a society might be ruled by patriarchies and families (most of recorded human history) at 3) a society might be ruled by independence (such as the "advent" of the USA) at 4) a society might be ruled by democracy (such as many changes of the last century) at 5) a society might be ruled by information (some seem to want to be heading this way now) at 6) a society might be ruled by innovation and creativity at 7) a society might be ruled by a radical level of freedom and awareness that we've most likely never seen and like what i think CM was getting at...the spectrum is not the end result, but more like a portal to more than what it started out to be also...for the record...i'm not trying to fit everything into 7 boxes either...i'm just using the traditional and scriptural model as a mere measuring device, as i believe it was intended. for example...one could take 5) and expand it into 3 sub-categories or much like one could take a ten foot rope and cut it into 7 pieces, or 10 pieces, or 20 ...it doesnt change the length of the original rope