sirguessalot

some scripture to go with it Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come, and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne 1:5a And from Jesus Christ who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, something i find interesting about this is how Jesus the Christ (the demonstrator of "Christ in us") is called "the faithful witness" ...that highest aspect WITHIN us that is always observing, always aware (if interested...look at the message to church #7, and see what comes into view immediately after that message) 1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks something i find interesting about this is how he had to "turn" to see the 7 and this turn was like repent or convert or REturn or turn back which is also like turning inward, like turning one's face inside out or, according to some rabbis..."to look at things from the other side of God's face" which is pretty much the purpose of meditation and contemplation ....when we stop looking solely into the exterior for Christ from Strongs... transitively: to turn to to the worship of the true God to cause to return, to bring back to the love and obedience of God to the love for the children to love wisdom and righteousness intransitively to turn to one's self to turn one's self about, turn back to return, turn back, come back if it is true that Christ is within us here and now and Christ is the only way to God and when this writer somehow turned in a way to see Christ and also saw 7 golden candlesticks where are these 7 spirits? and how do we get there? and where is this throne of God? and what is it to speak in "tongues of fire?" is there not a "tongue of flame" atop each of the 7 candles? (once they are lit, of course) ... Goey, I hope this helps you see a practical sense in all this, and a bit more about where I am coming from

to expand on a paste from an earlier post in this thread: so...perhaps we can be "monochromatic" in more than one way for example...in terms of the above list of expanding levels of care... ...if only #1 and #2 are the ones that are mostly fully "open" we might look like a selfish sports fanatic but we do not care to accomplish much ourselves...#3 and we do not care (#4) much about anything outside of these two circles (self and group) and we may not care to know much about much else...#5 and we may not care to be creative...#6 and we are more or less lacking self-awareness...#7 ...if only #4 and #6 are the ones that are mostly fully "open" we might look like an isolated soft-spoken starving artist but our own health may suffer for lack of self care...#1 and we may be a loner...because we dont care for membership...#2 and we dont really care about accomplishment...#3 and we dont really care to know much about anything else...#5 and we dont really care to know more about ourselves...#7 ...extreme case...if only #7 is mostly fully "open"...all our problems our compounded and we might look like a crazy old man living in an abandoned building we dont care about ourselves...so our health is suffering and we might stink real bad...#1 we dont care about membership..and so we are loners...#2 we dont care about accomplishment and are poor...#3 we dont care about anyone cuz we are mean ole cusses...#4 we dont care to know squat, so we are ignorant...#5 we dont care to be creative about anything...so we cant do anything new anyway...#6 but...we are mostly aware of all these aspects of self (#7) and so are more or less up to our necks in hell and so...what is it to "work out" our own salvation? and what is it to "have an evil spirit?" ...i think this kind of thing brings up all kinds of interesting questions...biblically and otherwise

what i think we should want is wellnes in each aspect of our being which, i believe, starts with simply being aware of them and of how they are all important and harmonize and not only how this may be true inside of each of us but how society is then also a collection of all of us

heerz another monochromatic problem that comes in with level 4) when we simply value everything and everyone in the world so much, that we come to hate all distinctions we reject all notions of hierarchies, we reject all attempts at classifications we reject the value of economy and science we reject the value of membership we reject the value of individualism but in our hypocrisy...we actually cause a breeding ground for narcissism and we are blind to the membership we have just created and we are blind to the gifts of business and science we see it when people gas up their car and stop at a coffee shop on their way to a protest this is what i would call monochromatic green an attempt at radical inclusivity...that forgets to include a whole lot of important things

thanks Goey well. i have written a lot on this and other threads already..but i'll give it another shot anyway ok, an example of monochromatic 2)...a doctrine whose drive for wholeness is founded on getting people to join (and stay in) an exclusive group. Now...the actual nature of this joining and the nature of the group can vary wildly. From racism, to bibliolatry, to national pride, etc And the doctrine can and does include all kinds of sub-interests from the spectrum...even nazis care about eating. But the bottomline of the doctrine gives it a distinctive cap. We may have compassion, but our compassion is limited to the bounds of our group doctrine. We may have individualism, but it is only allowed to be expressed within the bounds of our group doctrine. etc... It is fundamentally about membership, which is only one step beyond egoic selfishness of 1). And this membership can described as christian, islamic, buddhist, atheist, sports-fanatics, mac-users, gender-based, diet-based, music genre fans, etc...but membership is the "deal-breaker" for rewards, values, etc... Why it is monochromatic is because there is nothing wrong with membership, just as there is nothing wrong with the color orange...but when (1) individuallity is rejected or suppressed, or (3) actual good achievements outside of the group are discredited, or when (4) compassion itself is twisted to suit the needs of the group...yes, our ability to intepret life will be dull...as in lacking sharpness, lacking distinctions...like having dirt on all those other particular lenses. Its like putting on a specific kind of glasses. One may be looking at the full spectrum reality, but can only see and evaluate it in terms of how it relates to their favorite color...and all its relative gradients of blacks and whites what i would do to correct these doctrines, has no one simple answer. But to give you a simple answer, i would start by unfolding the doctrine a bit more, so the doctrine holders can see where membership fits in a spectrum, so as not to remove it. But to restore it to "the wholeness." ... another example of monochromatic #3...would be a doctrine that will only accept things that are proven. "Forget the value of myths and legends, forget the value of creativity, forget the value of radical compassion...but what is tested and proven in a controlled environment...that is ALL that is important and valuable. Everything else is worth less." this shade of belief is based on truth, and exists for a true reason. We dont want to get fooled. But when it becomes our sole note on the flute...so to speak...we have a monochromatic doctrine..or rule for life. As much as a large segment of our population suffers from monochromatic membership, perhaps even a larger segment (including some of the membershippers) suffer from this workaholicism, achievement addiction, extreme skepticism, etc... I think a lot of what we saw in TWi was an overlapping of monochromatic #2 and #3. We were anal about our biblical membership (2)...to the point of wanting the theology to fit with an exact science (3). And so all that mattered was "the word," (2) and how perfect we could get it (3). ... of course, no one person or group is completely monochromatic. its the LEADER of our consciousness that i am speaking of...our Lord..the dominant aspect and the doctrinal (formal or informal) lense thru which we view the world. and it can get trickier...where one can say that science is what they believe to be the most valuable...but the LEADING reason for this belief...is because it is valuable to them, personally, and serves them personally. So now we have a person driven by 1) but claiming 3) (in a sense) ... imagine (Behold!), if you will...that you and i are already living rainbows...already all colors of the spectrum. But when we live only from one of the "colors" most of the time...we are being monochromatic, in those times and i say "most of the time" because certain situations can send us into another color real quick. Such as things that gets us angry...such as what happens when we feel personally offended...when are not normally like that...but something that draws out our "red goggles." but this is a temporary shift ...because when the situation is done..we will return to our favorite everyday color again more later...

something i posted on the current manifestations thread in the About the Way forum that seems to fit here as well i want to offer a quick sample of an idea of how the manifestations might actually make more sense: 1) if left in the order Paul wrote them 2) if looked at in terms of always already present nature of reality (all of which is already always spiritual), and not some exclusive gift given to an exclusive group...but the everpresent truth of God (that man simply falls asleep to when we enter any sort of monochromatic worldview/Godview.) 3) if looked at in terms of sequential unfolding...how each manifestation comes through the previous manifestations, and builds upon the quality and nature of the previous manifestations, and so the quality of the resultant stack of manifestations can be traced back through them all...maybe think "conveyor belt" or "spiritual continuum" ok... 1) word of wisdom = asking a question. the foundations of our spiritual self always starts with a simple question. A crying newborn is the earliest example i can think of. The art of asking a newer and better question on the spot. 2) word of knowledge = finding an answer...which naturally comes through word of wisdom, and hopefully produces more and better "words of wisdom." 3) faith = the results of all our questions and answers...which is something we can rely on, and have confidence in. Faith is never perfect, and always has an element of gambling. In this sense....science IS what is meant by faith, especially when our private questions and answers are compared. Faith is that which has been proven. 4) gifts of healing...the results of better questions, answers, and faith (science) naturally leads to better ways of being born, living, diet, wellness, wholeness, healing and dying. Better medicine. Which says a lot for the importance of quality in the previous 3 manifestations. We may not even always know why healing and wholeness comes...and who cares...its a gift, regardless. 5) miracles...the results of all the previous 4...great advancements and wonders in healing, science, answers...even amazing new questions we may have never thought to ask come like miracles. When we apply all the previous together...things tend to break loose. And who cares why...if it works, it works . if it doesnt, it doesnt. 6) prophecy, forecasting, predictions...with the increase in quality of the all the previous 5, greater patterns and trends emerge. This is where we sense how every thing moves in waves, tides, and seasons. 7) discerning of spirits...the art of science of studying the super patterns and super trends in terms of spectrums of reality, and of whole truths with many parts. 8) speaking in tongues...the art and science of speaking of the spectrum of reality. In this sense, each level of the spectrum is a "tongue," or voice, or tone of an "angel." 9) interpretation of tongues...the art and science of explaining the overall spectrum, which is to explain Christ as the inward man, and its relationship to the outer world. To speak of the Christ, is to speak of all "angels" at once, as a whole, and how they work in harmony. again, it seems as if each manifestations comes through each other in an unfolding manner but also...tend to support each other in the reverse order as they unfold peace

i usually save this sort of thing for the doctrinal dungeon but it seems to fit here as well i want to offer a quick sample of an idea of how the manifestations might actually make more sense: 1) if left in the order Paul wrote them 2) if looked at in terms of always already present nature of reality (all of which is already always spiritual), and not some exclusive gift given to an exclusive group...but the everpresent truth of God (that man simply falls asleep to when we enter any sort of monochromatic worldview/Godview.) 3) if looked at in terms of sequential unfolding...how each manifestation comes through the previous manifestations, and builds upon the quality and nature of the previous manifestations, and so the quality of the resultant stack of manifestations can be traced back through them all...maybe think "conveyor belt" or "spiritual continuum" ok... 1) word of wisdom = asking a question. the foundations of our spiritual self always starts with a simple question. A crying newborn is the earliest example i can think of. The art of asking a newer and better question on the spot. 2) word of knowledge = finding an answer...which naturally comes through word of wisdom, and hopefully produces more and better "words of wisdom." 3) faith = the results of all our questions and answers...which is something we can rely on, and have confidence in. Faith is never perfect, and always has an element of gambling. In this sense....science IS what is meant by faith, especially when our private questions and answers are compared. Faith is that which has been proven. 4) gifts of healing...the results of better questions, answers, and faith (science) naturally leads to better ways of being born, living, diet, wellness, wholeness, healing and dying. Better medicine. Which says a lot for the importance of quality in the previous 3 manifestations. We may not even always know why healing and wholeness comes...and who cares...its a gift, regardless. 5) miracles...the results of all the previous 4...great advancements and wonders in healing, science, answers...even amazing new questions we may have never thought to ask come like miracles. When we apply all the previous together...things tend to break loose. And who cares why...if it works, it works . if it doesnt, it doesnt. 6) prophecy, forecasting, predictions...with the increase in quality of the all the previous 5, greater patterns and trends emerge. This is where we sense how every thing moves in waves, tides, and seasons. 7) discerning of spirits...the art of science of studying the super patterns and super trends in terms of spectrums of reality, and of whole truths with many parts. 8) speaking in tongues...the art and science of speaking of the spectrum of reality. In this sense, each level of the spectrum is a "tongue," or voice, or tone of an "angel." 9) interpretation of tongues...the art and science of explaining the overall spectrum, which is to explain Christ as the inward man, and its relationship to the outer world. To speak of the Christ, is to speak of all "angels" at once, as a whole, and how they work in harmony. again, it seems as if each manifestations comes through each other in an unfolding manner but also...tend to support each other in the reverse order as they unfold peace

funny Danny "the paper god" if paper is dead wood and wood is an idol and we cant beyond the paper in our head perhaps it is time for a baptism of fire and... is it possible the "the word of God" is simply what God reads? and the whole universe is His book? i dunno... it is written...all things are possible with God so who knows?

to help shift perspectives a bit and help keep from leading into more monochromatic holes i want to play out an example and how there a useful range of ways we can see the spectrum of things 1) each human being has a variety of aspects...morals, perspectives, agility, social skills, self-awareness, etc...and EACH of these lines unfold along a spectrum, giving each of us many different "branches" of various lengths. And depending on the model you find/use...some have named over 10 different aspects. 2) each of us also has an overall depth and span and weight in the universe...which would not be a single color or anything like that, but what dominant traits comes out of the composition of the whole picture of all our aspects. We become works of art with many striking features and contrasts...and no one on earth could possibly be monochrome, though we may see ourselves and others that way. and some may actually get close. 3) every circle of people is a also combination of its many "works of art"...but now we are talking about flowers in fields, and observing patterns in the greater complexities 4) there are ever greater circles of circles...which gives us super patterns and in super complexities...oh my 5) and keeping in mind, how in each of these distinctions...the seasons and tides come and go...and each aspect is also engaged in a play of eros and agape... its no wonder the wisest men found some kind of new kind of peace in calling "the truth" a mystery that never sleeps...we will never know all the laws of God amen, brother clay thanks Danny reminds me of something how there is nature, Nature, and NATURE ...depending on how we use it

here i am in the wee hours sitting with that thread..."what does it take to change your mind?" and i cant help but notice how that title just sits there like a white hot jewel of holy wisdom ...sizzling little candle in the dark "what does it take to change your mind?" sits there like a toy koan, a divine riddle, "duh moment" divine like forgotten mommas milk for the bones of our soul simply holy for having that subtlest shift backwards in punctuation its the punctuation that makes it a sacred thing not the actual words which makes any good question into a sacred question and a perfect example of how eros starts at red and learns to climb the spectrum and how our "original masculine duty" is never to forget how to keep lifting this "baby serpent" higher lest it become a "big old bad red dragon"...and the cause of most angry and violent suffering and death simply by asking higher and higher questions we lift ourselves with higher and higher eros so... i hope you dont mind if i bleed on the pages a bit with this little rant... its amazing how deep the first level of eros goes lets see if i can compare the biblical myth to this map a bit more i would even go as far as to use language from the Corinth letter can call it "the first manifestation" ..."word of wisdom," simply for being a question rather than an answer in other words...wise words which, if you think about it is quite an ordinary everyday thing which is what makes it divine tho there sure can be hell to pay when we forget this one it is perhaps the first and oldest lesson there ever was in any one's life the one ephesus should never forget which is to never stop asking better and braver questions which is like a star saying to tongue of fire..."never forget to love as light loves and always be ready and willing to leap off into the darkness" child's play, really not even that..but baby play not speech, but crying the second manifestation comes through wisdom which is why its called word of knowledge, i suppose ...it comes to the depth and degree we have actually leapt and landed we somehow asked a thing until we found AN answer though we may not have the true interpretation ...that comes last and so wisdom continues to unfold from there as does knowledge and so on, and so on faith manifests THROUGH this tree...this body...of wisdom and knowledge ..which is confidence, and science, what has been proven in a peer-to-peer environments to the depth and degree that we have shared our questions and answers greater healing, obviously, follows good science...good faith...good wisdom... better ways to be born better ways to live better ways to die then greater miracles come THROUGH that then greater predictions greater maps greater languages greater music and art and holier writ these things simply come through each other and agape is what experiences each of them at each level agape is the texture of our subjective self i think this kinda thing also serves as a good example of how underestimated that first lesson is because all along, being the firstborn spirit of each of us that first lesson is always the oldest brother blood red king oldest eros our deepest grandest canyons when our highest levels of eros are still just scratches in the dirt picture this like a rose budding each level of eros opens up within each other the quality of our "red" is always our own personal base the original scar the shape of our original mortal wound question is...is this little lamb covered in his own blood? or the blood of another? and by blood, i mean...who has suffered for our own unanswered questions? more later...

Hi revvel thanks for taking the time I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "it," "it" and "it"......but yeah, i do want the truth ...but not only The truth. so...i hope you dont mind if i dont answer the rest of your questions ...though i still will, if you wish i probably shouldnt have posted on this thread it looks like you have a specific message and a lesson you want to get out ...some sort of polemic shout and i am being a lousy student and guest i am not even addressing the specific points you are making but responding to the overall genre of interpretation so...grace and peace...if that's acceptable to you +ODD

seems to me like the nature of manifestations and fruit got completely switched around in twi doctrine cuz fruit is not mere evidence we "operate" fruit we cultivate fruit we eat fruit but the spirit is already always manifest in every thing...including the fruit me too, ssuda

for anyone interested, heerz a small composition of thoughts on all this by way of a simple playful model of what i think the spectrum of eros might look like from the top and in a very general sense notice how the higher the eros, the greater the span of desire - clear eros - seeks union with/via agape and awareness itself, and seeks it in terms of universal cause - purple eros - seeks union with/via visionary and creative logic, and seeks it in terms of greater possibility - blue eros - seeks union with/via merging of all knowledge, and seeks it in terms of all modes of learning - green eros - seeks union with/via compassion, and seeks it in terms of all living things - yellow eros - seeks union with/via reason, and seeks it in terms of the tried, proven and tested - orange eros - seeks union with/via sex, and seeks it in terms of family, group and friends - red eros - seeks union with/via food, and seeks it in terms of self and sustenance and health - brown eros - general unconscious evolutionary impulse to seek, to leap, to spark, to manifest to be in agape on each of these levels is to inconditionally accept whatever state or degree of success each of these levels may be in agape is to feel, see, taste, touch, listen, and otherwise sense and know the nature of that level of eros and to simply witness whatever eros is doing...without flinching, without RE-action to shadows and taboos agape is a radical judging...one that is without a sense of condemnation for failures and weaknesses we really only have free-will on each level to the depth and degree we can act from a free place of agape on that level to put it in the great triune terms: 1) the initial erotic ascension would be the father-like, the causer, and the initiator of all levels of desire..to the highest 2) the grace that surrounds and expands to hold it all...is the mother-like of all...the comforter...the receiver 3) the result of this union is the "son of adam," which is a new kind of eros that is free to act from a place of being in agape to be "wise as serpents" is the process of ascending this entire scale from the bottommost and to be "harmless as doves" is to descend this entire scale from the uppermost down through each and every level in this sense, perhaps "our Father which is in heaven" is that highest kind of desire...which is the desire for agape

yes, very interesting stuff. and I just love the new ways that new technologies are getting involved in all things. also, how roles in childhood development and well-being are being considered. and how it really seems to be getting beyond all the typically "spiritual" narcissism of modernity. well...i hafta say, that "meditation" is HUGE umbrella of a topic, that spans many many cultures, many millenia, and is naturally suffering from the same kinds of post-modern shallownesses as too many other old and old old and old old old things. some of the meditative traditions are so deep and sophisticated as to be "buried" in alien language-sets, that the depth and details are pretty much out-of-reach of westerners, who quite naturally lack the decades it would take to study, practice and grasp but a narrow slice of what has actually been expressed in those traditions...and this could be said of the world's traditions...north, east, west, south and in between some of the eastern disciplines have mapped and compared the various layers of the vast upper atmospheres of consciousness in such fine fine detail, that they have developed dozens of classifications for what we in the west typically narrow down to a few. so, perhaps it's not a greater overall depth that heartmath provides, but a language-set and processes that speak more directly to the modern life btw...not saying heartmath does not go deep, or that it does not have an especially potent leverage for contemporary western minds, but that it naturally lacks the centuries upon centuries that the lineage-holders have spent in all the many various forms...heartmath (and the like) seems more of a post-post-modern synthesis...and a damn good and highly relevent one...which is very good news, imo and btw..i love EVERYTHING you have written here...thanks for such soulful nudity, truly oh...and another btw....have you ever heard of the game "Journey to the Wild Divine?" A beautifully interactive game world that responds mostly to biofeedback. I bought it when it first came out a few years ago. ...sorry if i get a little kidlike with this topic

Tbone..you wrote... though i could probably write for years on this one... ...a few thoughts...if i may the best thing an intellectual can do is find a practice that helps you become more mindful of simple bodily feelings and sensations and believe me...this is a deep deep subject..not shallow or unintelligent at all and such things are founded on the simple sensation of breathing and ways of practicing being mindful of the mechanics and sensations of your basic human breath and believe me, there are a gazillion ways to practice this...which is good news, imo my personal practice is a synthesis of more than a few depending on what i am doing (eating, working, sex, exercise, sleeping, dreaming, suffering, etc...) to the point where i am becoming more mindful of my breath pretty much throughout the day and its amazing how it doesnt take very long before one becomes unconsciously competent in this sort of thing and what these kinds of things do is bring the gravity of one's awareness from mere brain to the entire body/mind and more or less helps free us from the gift/schism of western duality and escape our identification with the thinker again...probably dont approach this sort of thing unless you are ready for some potent interior transformation and...like Gardner...changing our mind can have a lot to do with changing our perception of the nature of the mind itself...and our relationship with it and...kinda like what was written about the return of The Kid...how "heez gonna meet you in the air" man o man...all sort of stuff on this one heck...if you integrate it with the shadow journaling in my previous post... yowza...fasten yer friggin interior seatbelt

regarding journaling... here is an idea that will change minds (which, according to most traditions..."mind" included "heart")... when facing a problem with someone in the past, present or future...living or dead try journaling like this.... btw...probably dont do this unless you are ready for some unravelling and processing and interior transformation..this can be some potent stuff and...like most journaling...you'll get the best results if you dont hold back ... 1) journal your feelings and thoughts towards the person/persons/issue in 3rd person write about IT as a he, she, him, her, they, them, it, etc... this can even be about a troublesome positive feeling towards IT ... 2) journal about the issue in 2nd person where you write to that person as a "you" but do it in dialogical form, where the other person also addresses "you" and most likely even defends themselves like writing a screen play where you have to role-play the other's perspective ... 3) journal in the 1st person perspective of the other where you write as the voice of the IT ... 4) go back and read what you wrote take some time to reflect, and ask some good questions ... btw..yeah...a big thumbs up on the heartmath stuff

hm...interesting comparison wth what does it take to repent? a few important questions come to mind and not directed at anyone in particular ... just what does it take to turn our programmed thoughts and emotions around? our bent and broken habits and feelings and ways of being and doing? how can we turn our lives completely around? and find the key to newness in the inward man? that inward logos divine... are we not to be disciples of transformation and renewing and refreshing? are we not to be actual practicing changers and repenters and metamorphers of thought, heart and deed? isnt the good book of full to overflowing with scripture on this subject? on how NOT to stay the same old natural ways? and how to change change change without fear in the face of God and the Devil and the whole host of heaven if we dare? prior to sin...man was naked and NOT ashamed and so...how can we change our minds without shame? where have all these taboos come from? how can we repent without fear? how can we turn inside out and upside down? no, not just for our sake but for the sake of the world who has to put up with us and no not just once but with every breath of life that flows in and out of our soul if God is the God of the living and God is here and now right here on this forum... why do we severely restrict ourselves to only believing the books of dead dead dead men? ... not trying to come across like a hot lamp, really or expecting anyone to answer tit for tat like so many of the old proverbs say... the questions take us farther than the answers

seems to me, that heresy is rooted in choosing and that old habit of actually preferring doctrinal exclusivity indoctrinating exclusivity IS heresy, imo and to exclude exclusivity is to reject heresy

reminds me of that old story of the man who was seeking God but it wasnt until he exhausted himself with all his activity and journeys that he finally sat down and shut up and found that he had already been in agape all along reminds me of that great contemplative prayer: be still and know that I am God be still and know that I am be still and know be still be eros seeks agape, in all its many ways but agape just is, in all its many ways

dang, x...i'm not very sure how to respond to those interesting questionsi would say that being in agape can never be inappropriate, or applied wrongly and yes, i think we can be (and typically are) fooled into thinking agape is something we do, dream, believe, or otherwise act out it is the most radically neutral state of being there is and is already always presently possible perhaps, the only thing that can "go wrong" with agape is being in eros without a sense of it and in one sense, being infinite, agape is larger than all the finite motions of eros put together to the point of being immeasureable and for the strictly masculine mind... the vast freedom from being in agape can even seem as terrifying as the devil himself like fish in a vast ocean of agape we typically don't realize how wet we already always are hm...the way it seems to read, paragraph 7 has them described opposite of the way you just credited it for explaining a lot, Mark.

i just wanna say...hats off to tbone and the rest for carrying this thread, fer sure i mean wow...gratitude all around i'm glad someone had the heart and courage to ask the question... the simple asking of "what does it take to change your mind?" cuz yeah...with all the names and books and fields of study popping up on this thread ...each one quite the "white rabbit" for googling ...now we're getting into post-metaphysics and integral psychology which gets into post-post modern science and spirituallity and all kinds of interesting stuff shadows and spirit and dreams and neurons...oh my! many things that could really help a lot of people get through our TWI experiences if one can make it through those feelings of "advanced class table" and too...when we get beyond talking about mere "brain science" and into the actual emerging sciences and practices of body and mind and spirit... ...yowza...welcome to the 21st century and in ways that seem to go really really good with a lot of the old and old old and old old old doctrines and practices imo i think this thread could continue to be a real live wire and really open up to a lot lot lot lot more links and subjects and writers and words, whatnot at least i know i hope to spend more time with it in this way and i hope we can touch this stuff here and handle the possible allergic reactions with as much compassion as we can muster

a tad wee hour ramble... to be in agape, in some domain is to be receptive to whatever is happening in the domain to be in agape is to be in a state of reception agape IS that state of reception perhaps it could be said that all eros happens within that ultimate radical field of agape the state of agape that exists prior to, during, and after all levels of eros and just as we can be in eros in a spectrum of ways we can be in agape in a spectrum of ways and we can cycle through levels of activity and rest in all our many ways of our being and this feminine agape i speak of is not to be confused with stopping or putting on the breaks...which is simply another form of eros, but a simple falling into what is like the rain falls into the world to whatever depth and degree that we are in a state of unconditional love and acceptance for all things one could say that we are in agape

hehe..danny maybe we need better mirrors xena, yeah...i think that is a really cool scripture seems to fit very well in some "divine" or "ultimate" moral sense, any evil thing is also 100% true regardless of its relative or current value simply because IT is it is a true thing and everything being also originally true, makes everything also originally good, regardless of its present composition so what makes it evil? evil is born from discordant degrees of monochromatic good ...the muddying of the water so that a monochromatic perspective may be true but it lacks depth of causal awareness which includes self-awareness and so tends to cause more discord rather than less which is then...NOT good and monochrome is not just one kind of black-and-white thinking but a spectrum of different kinds of black and white thinking that naturally find discord when they go bump in the night with other but to be able to see causal truth as a spectrum is to be able to untangle knots more peacefully and avoid causing more discord

hm i suppose the most direct way to answer that would be to ask that man or woman, allan

...thinking more about that last line in that quote from the catholic article: "On the other hand, man cannot live by oblative, descending love alone. He cannot always give, he must also receive. Anyone who wishes to give love must also receive love as a gift. " the way it is written, this line actually doesn't go with what ive written on this thread or with what ive come to understand about the ascending and descending currents of love to give (in the usual sense) is an act, which is more along the lines of being in eros. to receive is a non-active surrendering, which is more along the lines of being in agape even agape, as a verb, is a useful paradox...to actively rest in some degree of nonactivity which has a lot to do with observation and feeling as forms of reception of course, one could also say that being in a state of surrender...one is also automatically giving ....simply by not withholding and being an open space in which all things flow through freely (but i dont think this is exactly what the author of that article meant by "give") i dunno, i guess its a matter of semantics, and i know there is that ongoing dispute over the official origins and meanings of agape, which is no surprise, considering the often conflicting and contradictory ways it is used in and out of the Bible and other literature and cultural histories