sirguessalot

well, Danny, one of the major distinctions i see going on here is how some prefer to discuss interpretation of scripture from the research and accuracy point of view and some prefer to express their experiences of scripture without all that pressure to be so correct (and of course, some want to play in both modalities) but if those who lean towards the research and accuracy modalities do not see the value of other modes even to the point of casting doubts on the soundness and safety of other modes of discourse and interpretation or suggesting that posters are unsound and conform or move to other venues because of it... ...i do reserve the right to stand up and shout a bit from time to time and for specifically personal reasons even to the point of casting doubts on the soundness of that behaviour and rightfully so, imo btw..love the comic as well as your insight and i must say that i do sincerely appreciate this remark you made, Goey: because i think it really speaks to what i am saying hereand what i see my friend Clay saying and doing here and what i am fighting for, and the distinctions i am trying to call attention to peace to you privately, of all the forms of hermeneutics, heuristics, semiotics, eisegesis, exegesis, contemplations, deconstruction, pesher techniques, narrative and meta-narrative paradigms...and yada yada what not, i prefer an integral approach to art and literary criticism, particularly favoring a healthy blend of semiotics and post-structuralism but i find trying to explain or keep track of all the many different modalities boring, tedious and quite the yawnathon at most cocktail parties and so i stick to simple original poetic expressions of my spiritual experiences, lest i find myself having to defend someone other than myself and i highly enjoy finding others who like to do the same forgive for wishing outloud for other children to play with and for a place where the adults will at least take their shoes off and sit on the floor if they insist on being there

sincerest apologies, allan i have forgetten how wounded you already are i'm sure the last thing you need are more threats of humility i just wish you could see yourself as others do, here and i wish you could put yourself in others shoes, here who knows..maybe you can, and just dont have the heart to care any more, being the self-proclaimed a$$ that you are either way, i thank God hardly anyone takes your slander or insight very seriously

i will say this...that if one stops seeking exterior proofs and textual evidences of the inward man and enters what is described (in scripture and without) as the narrowest path to God (within) eventually, the meanings of the Bible text are going to change before your very eyes the compelling evidence will hit you between the eyes and in the heart and there will be little you can do about it vp was mostly wrong because like Jesus said...the new birth is very much like the old it is bloody and messy and very obviously not some hidden thing much pain and suffering involved in the new birth the pangs alone will rock you..or you have missed when that that Christ that has been conceived within us from the dawn of time will be born within our very hearts with many signs and wonders there will be no mistake...but you must believe before you see unless it comes upon you by surprise but the actual practice is what is missing and we mostly only talk about spirit

i find it odd, too how we dont see how we have gotten into this habit of asking for proof and evidence of spiritual things? how scriptural is that? when will we learn to lighten up, and simply let people weave their musings on God? comparing spiritual things with spiritual things and what can you all say to all those ladies who responded to this thread positively? did Clay consider it a crime that they claimed they didnt get exactly what he did, but got something out of it? are you trying to protect them from being tricked by Clay? lol i can imagine this might be the knee-jerk reaction after our twi experience but am i wrong to suggest that we can also try and be aware of this reaction? how is it that we have come to stop trusting our own interior spiritual experiences? and even worse, extend our own mistrust towards that interiors of others? well...we kinda know how, i'm sure "to die before you die" is the result of an interior path of contemplative practice and its sad how anthropologists know this about the religions and most the modern religions don't know it about themselves

Oak, i know you didnt address me but i want to point something out that i think you may have entirely missed the point of the thread and jumped the gun there is nothing accusatory or mocking with this statement you have overreacted to it, and compound your own mistake if someone is not ready to consider such a thing..so what this can be guessed or sensed by someone else if someone says there is compelling evidence that comes from within...so what scripture (and science) testifies of this all over the place if someone says that it is something you have to see for yourself...so what its the same damn argument used to disprove a thing if you have never had a specific kind of interior experience...so what its almost too simple to argue with..unless the idea bothers us personally why make all the presumptions without even bothering to investigate maybe Clay can't explain himself as well as you like and admit it, maybe the oft hostile dialogical environment around here makes it difficult to do, anyway and yes, failure to see someone's point can be a failure to think about a certain thing and..."i dont understand what you are saying therefore you are wrong/crazy, etc..." this is not a sane conclusion, either is it possible that other people understand Clay's point? what will you do then? i think it would be wise to simply inquire and not from a confrontational place but like the spirit says..with the spirit of peace yes..you know...it becomes quite obvious when someone is asking with an agenda as opposed to sincere inquiry just as it is quite obvious when someone really only wants to argue and never really intended to find out what was being said or maybe simply stops trying to figure out what was being said...for whatever reason i can understand why Clay stops trying to explain what he is getting at to some people we all do this...i think it is a healthy choice to make...when we reach our limit and you or I know when we reach our limit more than anyone else... though others may foolishly claim to tell us what our our limit is there comes a point where you have to ask..."why did you bother posting here?"

sorry Goey, you can justify your habit to only argue all you want but you are NOT the one to define how dialogue works not all people start a conversation to have it tested by some antagonist and not all posts down here are "doctrinal," per se its just the name of the basement where all kinds of spiritual off beat topics are discussed for people who like to compare notes, and yes, even get only positive feedback the world is not going to end if someone simply wants a little confirmation and comraderie especially considering the oft confrontational tsunamis we face in the world yes some people come here for PEACE and a friggin BREAK from the confrontational world can that be ok with you? please relax lighten up yes, some can talk of God and spirit and death lightly i suggest you reconsider what you think this venue is meant for in terms of how it is wanting to be used by members rather than how you think it to be used also, just because someone does not want to be challenged in the way that YOU challenge does not mean they are against learning, or closed off to further info some people may simply not like you not because they think you are evil but because you may seem to them more centered on what you want than anyone else more intent on being right, as if it is the penultimate thing also, Clay did not respond to your posts at all, anyway and i dont blame him, considering your pattern of dialogue yet you took the opportunity to keep on it until he slipped but its NOT yer job, Goey..to hang out and point out what you perceive to be faults in character and weaknesses in logic frankly, i dont even believe you come to Clay's threads to discuss, anyway and just because you can restrain yourself from cussing does not disqualify you from rudeness rudeness is not defined by simply getting mad and cussing there are plenty of subtle ways to be rude in a conversation some people are not always as good as keeping their cool when prodded can that be ok with you some day? and dont tell me for a minute that that isnt a common pattern at the gsc, or any forum for God's sake, we gotta learn to let people fail sometimes

man oh man...wtf? mr. allan w....Clay and i are good friends who met here and share some experiences and values. and if you want to continue to make that into something it isn't...or otherwise poke fun at it...i will humiliate you. I promise. i dare you get on a crusade against me or Clay like you do others and...i am deeply torn between leaving the forum for good :( or embarrassing the pi$$ out of some of you guys for the way you continually bait and mock and heap up piles of argumentation and basically justify your manner of dragging down threads you dont agree with or understand whether you realize it or not....some of you guys can really be a rotten spot in this feast of agape and need to sit down, shut up and return to the milk of the teets before you say anything else you think is somehow spiritual or Christlike and once i have decided and have set my mind to it....I will outlast you, i promise and i will draw from more scripture and sources than you can imagine and at this point...i dont even care if you understand why i am responding like this or not ...who can afford to wait for you to understand such things? oh yes...there are times when it is valid to say that someone does not understand something and it does not mean one is "being like Mike" (poor Mike)...my oh my...what a joke of a sideways accusation, Goey cuz if you guys cant even understand (or are pretending not to understand) why someone would cuss someone out in sheer frustration......your are ignorant about way too many important things for the common good...and your hearts are obviously numb to something important, and it needs to be broken for the sake of everyone else this.. i can and will do...trust me...even if my reputation goes down in flames with you all i will consciously and intentionally mirror your behaviour and interrogation styles i will ask you many questions you will wish i would have never asked cuz this kind of bullying badgering crap has got to end or our dialogue here becomes a useless pile of noise and a waste of mental and emotional energy where even physical health issues are compounded wtf? wtf? wtf? yes...i am a sensitive guy but with more patience than most ask anyone i know...you have got to have some serious problems to push me over the edge and God save you when you do and if some of you guys want to fight and argue and see this as a good opportunity i pity you...and i will stand here anyway

sometimes i wonder if "death" is a euphemism for "spiritual sleep" rather than the other way around as if being asleep to spirit is a more harsh reality than being dead to it that the spirit is missing and must be found seems easier to swallow...easier to claim...easier to avoid ...than it being already always being within me and around me...and I simply havent woke up to it yet Ro 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. it seems as if there is a deep shame tied to this...tracing all the way back to eden i mean, who can bring themselves to admit that such a thing is possible? perhaps this is the kind of foolishness that God enjoys...the admission of our own

just thinking of that sacred question again..."what does it take to change your mind?" it would seem that we must at least first find our mind or find the nature of our mind, prior to changing it and i think that this also points at true "spirituallity" of the world's great traditions and finding out how our true spiritual awareness is the most obvious and unavoidable truth because once we take that step back and are actually observing our mind and our soul that naggin question still begs to be asked..."who is it then that is looking at my mind?" is my mind looking at my mind? is my heart looking at my heart? is my soul looking at my soul? is my body looking at my body? is my brain lookng at my brain? if i am not my thoughts or my feelings in my body... then exactly who and what is watching all this? what is this nature of myself that can observe my body and mind and heart and soul? we are like fish who do not know how wet we already always are

ha…too cool, Xena thanks again for the invite so, ok…a bit about maps first, I think it’s worth repeating how the spectrum may be a sort of divine ruler but we should keep in mind that whatever we find to measure with it is but a fragment of truth are we measuring our inherent interior nature? or the sequential stages of our interior development? are we measuring some sense of our overall interior development? or a single line of growth (such as cognitive growth, or moral growth, etc..)? are we measuring individual exterior behaviour? or the activities of systems and societies? are we measuring the dominant aspect of a group? or the state of the planet in this era of history? etc… in terms of practical work here are some basic ideas that apply to each layer of our being and ideally, we should want to be mindful of every aspect in order to be whole 1 – practice healthy eating, healthy breathing, exercise, and good hygiene 2 – practice family rituals and traditions, better relationships, healthy sexuality 3 – practice rational thinking and responsible relationships with material possessions (this marks a sort of transition from bodily to soulful awareness) 4 – practice compassion and surrender and higher forms of open dialogue and communication 5 – practice learning new things and gaining new knowledge 6 – practice dreamwork, shadow work, journaling, creativity, etc... (this marks a sort of transition from soulful to spiritual awareness) 7 – practice meditation and contemplation even as overly simplistic as this map is I think it also points to a lot of things particularly the role of actual practice versus the empty religious yackity smackity and a blah blah blah And I think that as we contemplate the distinctions and implications of this little spread and we sense an adverse reaction to any level (which is typically an actual felt bodily tension) we have just touched some sense of shadow within ourselves which is pretty good news, imo because we will then also know something very valuable about our interior selves and know where to start, if we are interested in changing our lives and "the master is in the garden" as they say and his lesson is about leaning into pain...not fleeing from it "to shine a light in a dark place" has more to do with illuminating interior salvation (wholeness) than foolishly rushing out to pull the motes from the eyes of so-called infidels of course, this map can and should be taken out and shattered as better maps form and arise in our life it serves us better as a sand mandala ...like the reworkability of the potter’s clay ...a doodle in the sand of the soul ...a holy child's coloring book...and we are the child, the crayons and the paper

gotta love yer enthooziasm for this kind of thing, xena much gratitude for being so direct, and so interested your invitation means a lot to me, especially coming from you i do suffer from a certain inability to act without being somehow invited to "come out" and please know that i'm not as hung up on words like "apostle" and "intellect" as most others seem to be although i do understand how "an abundance of vision" is a reality that some people face and can be a terrible curse and a burden, even unto physical illness especially considering how unbelievably common it is for society to apply fear and shame towards this and other things in my case, most of my life, most of my emotional and intellectual energy has actually been spent withholding, "hoarding" and otherwise resisting the outward flow of almost constant streams of creative energy from deep within me so i stay on the surface, hoping someone is interested enough to look into things for themselves i dont have the energy to sit around all day defending things from people who know little to nothing about them..but have more energy than i do to argue about things they've already made up their mind about and so if it seems like i am holding a lot back...its because i am which can hurt like hell...and even seems to be aging me in ways though i am learning how not to hold back...God help us all and am also learning how to recover from many years of being in this state man o man...that is a most sacred question if i've ever seen onea true word of wisdom untouchable for being so touchable unbreakable for being so breakable i dont even need to answer it, really because just from asking the question, things will begin to unravel on their own to whatever depth and degree and duration we sit with the question the truest teacher will teach us in other words...you can take this one "to the mountain and back" like a personal key...it has its own personal value...and how we choose to go about answering it is up to us this is a big part of what it is to be "free indeed" when you become spirit...you become the widwife to your own heart and soul of course, one could handle such questions like Jesus or an aborigine would...and take the question into nature for 40 days and 40 nights ...although i will also warn you and say that your life will be dramatically and radically altered if you do or, to make it fit more easily with our modern schedule...one could sit with the question for an hour or two ...contemplating the question...nakedly witnessing what arises...without judgement...without shame not as easy as it sounds, of course and i know this is a pitiful excuse for an answer but i am actually writing from within a whirlwind of activity and i will try and spend more time with it when i can oh my...you are asking a lot the best i can do is point and compare my map with yours again...i will get back on this thread when i get a chance

well..i actually think i do agree with you, X..and i like how you put it... that denying death is one of a zillion droid activities that we have woven into our everyday way of being. sorry if i wasnt very clear i actually study ars moriendi (the art of dying) at the feet of some world class teachers and so i typed a real long post on the denial of death...but discarded it cuz i think the subject is a bit too deep for this thread...and really deserves another and its not a casual subject at all...perhaps even one of the least casual perhaps addressing one of the most urgent issues of our time especially how our manner of dying relates our manner of childbirth and how unresolved grief contributes to masculine violence i would rather approach it a bit more mindfully...which i hope to do someday real soon ... but what i was getting at is how denying death may not fit the idea of being monochromatic as i've been playing with it here...as being limited to a specific level of faith because the denial of death is not what we get from being in an exclusive level of faith, per se ...but what happens when there is a vital level of faith missing its more like what we get when there is a shadow being cast over a specific color "the shadow of death" is not a single color, but a lack of a specific color "a dark gap in the rainbow" in this sense, one can be in a state of monochromatic red, and deny death one can be in a state of monochromatic orange, and deny death one can be in a state of monochromatic yellow, and deny death one can be in a state of monochromatic blue, and deny death etc... and so...to agree with you...we can be in any monochromatic or multi-chromatic state and still exclude that level of awareness that is able to process death we will be "monochromatic" in a sense that we have this monochromatic avoidance and aware of, or interested in less than a full spectrum of being and not just from a denial of the death that comes at the end of our lives but as a denial of how to die to aspects of our self during life and if we cant die to things during life...we can't transform our lives very nice...may your wish be granted

i wouldnt say that our modern denial of death is a monochromatic trait but what happens when we silence that vital middle note the cross the heart the holy grail and so the fourth horseman rides

Xena...much appreciation for your continued engagement on this yeah...except when "livin life" becomes another hard label stuck on a multi-chromatic but less than fully-chromatic perspective. cuz as the questions continue to evolve...at some point, it becomes less a question of whether we are being monochromatic but to what degree are we less than aware of our being wholely-chromatic we can go from warring with and running from shadows to actually seeking them out and walking into them with peace ... and i think of how we can freely view any truth/s as both absolute and relative once we can comfortably wrap our minds/hearts around the paradox i would say that both good and evil are relative but only good is absolute of course, such a statement might be hard for us to handle or digest maybe even painful, whenever we react as if the reality of "evil" has just been denied to exist ...when it hasnt been denied at all though we may want to reconsider the value we place on the nature of "relativity" itself a negative reaction to the idea of "relative evil" seems very closely related to how we think of things like "relate," "related," "relative," "relationship" perhaps we could say that to take (or be stuck in) a "monochromatic view" is to take (or be stuck in) some limited sense of relativity ...while claiming to have the absolute view well..what if we were to take it up a notch? and imagine "tree" = "system" and "the system of life" is simply another way to describe all of creation/the whole universe as a singularity i am really starting to see how this the common view at the heart of most every spiritual tradition this big IT is not merely symbolic...it simply literally IS whether we like it or not IT IS right here and now always and forever. amen..all that and there is even a spectrum to where we draw the boundaries of our sense of "self" within "it" but regardless of where we draw those lines... whenever we hold any "broken branch" of the "system of life" as if it is THE absolute map of all "faith" or "reality" it's as if we consider that branch to be "the absolute system of knowing good and evil" ...when it is not of course, the piece we are holding IS also undeniably absolutely true and divine in origin but our monochromatic stance mistakenly calls it the whole thing...as in the "holy thing" and so "relative evil" is mistakenly considered to be "absolute evil" and "relative good" is mistakenly considered to be "absolute good" and tho this should be avoided at all costs it simply cant be avoided because we are naturally born in this state of having a monochromatic perspective and so life is a process of opening in manifold spectrums of perspectives the wider the spectrums of perspectives one can freely take the easier it becomes to see more relative goodnesses and relative evils reminds of sayings like... in the beginning...one became two, and then the two became ten, and then the ten became ten thousand or... one is all there ever was, and the one becomes three, and the three becomes seven, and the seven becomes the uncountable

cm, sounds kinda along the lines of what i'm trying to get at on the eros and agape thread her...always meant to fall in agape him..always meant to climb the erotic climb...starting in red and we move from thesis...to anti-thesis...to synthesis

wow...xena very interesting "what ifs" like yer shootin off fireworks or sumthin i think you've really kicked open some real interesting doors and i really dig what you wrote about eve...and the trees i think it would be good if we could find ways to set those timeless words free again ...free from all the old and new ways we've learned to drastically reduce their meaning (for some reason) it pains me sometimes, to see how much we've done this kind of thing and at the expense of some of the greatest and longest-lived contemplative practices of judeo-christianity ...especially considering how these same traditions were most likely the dominant spiritual forms in play during the writings of most all these scriptures we hold sacred today. :blink: and ok...why would we even want to argue against wanting to understand how things like rainbows and tonalities might apply even more deeply to interpreting and applying scriptures and life? cuz biblically, scripturally...seriously, playfully...however you are with it... ...this book of books seems more than obviously dripping wet with color...from gen to rev Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God manifold= "much variegated...marked with a great variety of colours...of cloth or a painting " this line seems to be pointing "off-screen" to some important aspects of this writer's more chromatic revelations ...details that were not included in Ephesians, for some reason more... 1Pe 4:10 As every man hath received the gift even so minister the same one to another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God interesting too, how manifold is also used referring to lusts, diseases, temptations more... Eph 4:3-10 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. measure=an instrument for measuring - a vessel for receiving and determining the quantity of things, whether dry or liquid - a graduated staff for measuring, a measuring rod - proverbially, the rule or standard of judgment - determined extent, portion measured off, measure or limit - the required measure, the due, fit, measure reminds me of the "ruler" we use to measure things like light and sound and this is interesting, too: Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ Rev 21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. hmm so, what might that do to these... Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light Eph 5:13-14 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord is it even possible to speak (or write or move) with any sense of "spiritual melody" if one isnt first, at least, willing to wrap their heart/mind around the gist of spiritual harmony first? why does it seem like we have forgotten (or maybe never knew) how all those sacred ideas behind "many-colored-dreamcoats" and "divine ladders" were NOT invented during the excesses of the 60s, NOR were they invented by 80s preachers in rainbow tights?

glad you enjoyed Roy

Roy...yeah, when i saw that thread you started, The Box I was once in "The Way Box", i saw it it reminds me of how the spectrum of reality might unfold in a non-linear and non-flat way but as a nesting sequence of wholes (boxes) ...alpha to omega...every whole being a part of an ever greater whole

well...i just want to say that i hope you guys can find a way to work through these misunderstandings perhaps find a way to keep peace...and maybe even part in peace...all that jazz i honestly dont know how to help without causing more trouble and misunderstanding

ok allan, but i didnt ask if you believed something was true i asked if you believed something was possible and Goey, please bow out without making further accusations on your way out the door ...i reserve the right to respond and i will, now, by saying that i have not responded with esoteric jargon, but with plain ole' english

imo, the primary thing he taught us that the only way out of suffering is through it to say that we each have a cross to bear is to say that we are each at an intersection...now where we are on this side of suffering and our freedom is on that side of it no one asks for suffering and no one is free of it so it truly is a universal lesson and a baptism of fire and blood that fact that he dared to stand up and teach such a horrifying thing in such an unforgettable way provided the seeds of possibility for such a radical change of heart to take place in the entire world we are renewed and resurrected to the depth and degree we endure this mode of transformation

thanks for bowing out, Goey and offering some explanations as to why you dont participate in my threads but i also want to make it clear to all... there is NO secret decoder ring and Goey did NOT provide reference to the plethora of esoteric jargon i used and he did NOT provide reference to what ive written that is "impossible" to understand besides, just because someone can't understand a thing does not make it impossible for everyone to understand i gave quite a variety of detailed examples of what i am talking about and...am still here and more than able to clarify

even our ideas of "salvation" can come through a spectrum of meaning 1) salvation = MY rescue, MY answered prayers, MY afterlife 2) salvation = "I'm in the afterlife club" or "i'm in the moral club" 3) salvation = a sound foundation for civilization 4) salvation = our hearts are fully open, we are free from hate 5) salvation = we are free from ignorance and prejudice 6) salvation = wholeness/holistic wellness in all parts 7) salvation = I AMness/free of duality/presence again, a very simple run thru could apply to islamic notions of "salvation" jewish notions of salvation buddhist notions of salvation etc...

allan, is it possible what you are waiting for is already here? now? and as long as you believe it is in the future, you may never bother to look? which would also pretty much guarantee that it remains in your future?

First, i would hafta say that really there is no such thing as a singular "Christianity" that agrees on the nature of salvation or Jesus Christ. And as it sits, the idea that "salvation is only through Jesus Christ" is empty of meaning, and requires someone to explain what they think that means, practically, doctrinally...which pretty quickly reveals the lack of singularity that i mentioned. i would also go as far as to say that the idea that "salvation is only through Jesus Christ" can come from and be intepreted at each and every level of the spectrum. in other words...the meaning of that idea is determined by one's frequency, or combination of frequencies here are some very simple ideas of what i mean by this, using the same basic model: (and by no means exhaustive...one could unpack each of these indefinately) if "salvation is only through Jesus Christ" is believed to mean that my own personal savior will grant me my personal wishes and desires and saves me from hell when i die, no matter what anyone one else says or does...one is speaking from 1). This doctrine is as diverse as there are people. or if "salvation is only through Jesus Christ" is believed to mean that by some specific manner of evoking that specific name from an exclusive book will make you a part of an exclusive group, and get your name on an exclusive list, either now or after you die, and that we must get others to join this group in order for them to be "saved"......one is speaking from 2). This doctrine is as diverse as there are groups in this category. or if "salvation is only through Jesus Christ" is believed to mean a logical response to the historic records, where one has sampled some of beliefs of the world and saw that this one made the most sense, and is the best foundation in an age of reason...one is speaking from 3). or if "salvation is only through Jesus Christ" is believed to mean that one must live and express the same level of selfless and universal love and compassion that he did in order to follow in his footsteps to the afterlife...one is speaking from 4). btw...I believe this is where we really start getting beyond mere ways of translating...and into the transformational aspects of "Jesus as Lord." To practice universal compassion is to be a disciple of compassion. And there is no law against this. And although it doesn't sound like much...it was a very new idea to most of first century culture. or if "salvation is only through Jesus Christ" is believed to mean that Jesus the Christ taught and demonstrated a specific caliber of doctrines and practices that were after lineages greater than himself, and unless one also practices and lives at that level of spiritual work, one will not experience the level of wholeness he described and experienced, one is speaking from 5) and beyond. ... but keep in mind, that all previous "levels of faith" can remain intact as we climb the ladder ...because they get grafted in to the bigger spectrum, and stripped of their exclusive identification with that "color" no longer is 1) a desire for selfish salvation, but a desire for personal wholeness and healthy self-care as it relates to the spectrum. no longer is 2) a desire for exclusive membership, but a greater inclusive membership (which i believe is a huge paradox of the bible message...to deal with doctrinal and spiritual racism, mostly). no longer is 3) a desire for the most rational answer, but a way to support the spectrum with greater rationality, and a way to expand the divine mystery etc... its when we climb the ladder and reject the earlier levels is when they come back to haunt us