sirguessalot

though i'm not one of your "fundamentalist friends," Mark i hope you won't mind me responding sometimes i wonder if a "day and night" applies to the single revolution of the entirety of creation accurate measurements for such an entirety are not required to understand what it implies i mean, if we can assume that creation/the universe indeed unfolded in some sort of sequential rush it would seem that the primal universe/creation grew vastly and dramatically with each turn thus changing the relative nature of time itself with each turn, just as dramatically and maybe it wasn't until the 4th or 5th "day" that the actual 24ish-hour period as we know it had settled in on little ole earth in other words...perhaps in Genesis, the meaning (and length) of "day" shifts from "day" to "day" btw...maybe look up "gathered" from Gen 1:9 in the Hebrew

nice one geo

well, here is an old old twist we are not likely to see in our modern medical models... ...in some parts of ancient greek culture, folks only paid the doctor if they stayed well can you imagine?

well, i can't help but think that this topic is perhaps one of the most difficult topics to discuss without a lot of dramatic misunderstandings and offensiveness (accidental or otherwise) though sadly, it may be one of the most important and needed lines of conversation for our times, especially considering how many opposing and contradictory forms of fundamentalism (even within the umbrella of Christianity) hold keys of power (politically, economically, medically, militarily, socially, historically, etc...) so, i am going to try and drop out it but thanks for the replies, greek2me i just can't see a way to respond to them without committing to a much longer conversation than i can afford right now peace (btw...for what it's worth...i do consider myself a deeply devout Christian)

:blink: lol...ok, I had the pleasure of knowing Mr. Vader (and his wife and children) for a while and he may be misguided and reeling from a TWI hangover and socially clumsy to the point of being one rude dude and he may be a bit of a quirky eccentric type but he is no monstrous threat to society and ok, so as not to derail i confess... ...i tried to teach the entire PFAL class to a (female) friend as we got drunk as skunks in a nudie bar and to make my sin worse...i never once made a sexual advance towards her

well, Pipes...my rhetorical questions are more of an exercise that is actually designed to point to something we can realize and experience right now after all...eternity exists right now but aside from that...the stuff you and Tbone just posted reminded me of this quote from Thomas Keating... "The spiritual journey is not a career or a success story. It is a series of humiliations of the false self that become more and more profound. These make room inside us for the Spirit to come in and heal." it seems, that a large part of what it takes to change our mind is to find out what and where our mind really is because our very sense of self-identity is all wrapped up in this quest to define (as well as undefine) the boundaries of self and so we might ask...am I aware of that part of me who carries the two pictures in my head? i mean...how honest and accurate and courageous are we, really? btw...i'm not saying this is easy or fun, either...more like being eaten up by a T-Rex also...i think think of how leaning/falling into pain/fear (agape) is the opposite of fleeing it (eros) but most importantly...how life is best as a balance (healthy marriage) of the two

well...i just hafta say that it seems to me as if Jesus's views of politics were (and are) worlds beyond (but including) our notions of "liberal" and "conservative" values of today i think such attempts to tag political bumper stickers on the stories and wisdom of Jesus is a shame and a travesty, and only serves to increase our hatred and ignorance towards each other...and double-standards abound besides...2000 years have gone by...and the world has dramatically changed too many times since then. what was ahead of its time 2000 years ago is not what is ahead of its time today i mean...if someone brings a post-post-modern message to the pre-modern world, how can we compare it directly to what that same person would do in a post-modern world? any attempt at a direct connection seems either dishonest or uninformed, or a stab-at-the-dark it's as if we have mostly lost our sense of our actual place in time in this era of hyper-change and our collective sanity is being quite swept away by it i would say that most all religious systems of today that are based on ancient texts, are too far removed from their roots to claim a direct connection to the teachings or practices, either politically or religiously. this seems a dominant trait of our post-modern funk...and quite natural, considering human nature, and the endlessly growing mountains of history we must contend with yet it seems today's religious forms are already too supported by and into their system and puffed with pride to admit such an increasing radical disconnect ... and i find it amazing how easily and how much and how many ways we celebrate our sense of pride in the name of the Bible...and strangely, to the point of being proud of pride i mean...who could take the shame of a true radical humility, now that all these centuries and centuries of claims have been made (and killed for)? if many evangelical politicans/ministers could bring themselves to honestly look into fields like cultural anthropology and evolutionary psychology, and apply them to the biblical records and integrate what he found with his beliefs...they would have to live a lie...or reshape their beliefs ...which of course...might feel too much like dying inside ...like shattering the heart like a clay pot but if we are honestly following in the steps of Jesus...this is something we would do daily, hourly, moment-by-moment...with joy and gladness if nothing else...in order to avoid the trauma of only doing it once-in-a-lifetime or at the end of life ... and too...from what i understand, our present day clash of ideologies is not about the usual and over-simplified "left versus right," anway, but more like a clash between at least 4 highly partial value systems...and none of them are inclusive enough to be called "spiritual" in any classic sense of the world, though a few of them are relatively new to human history (each of which is both an improvement, and a new set of problems) ...a clash of many competing instinctual goods (like the ole' lion versus a calf versus a man versus an eagle, for example) yet still...there are simply no political systems today that represent the individual radical philosophies of that infamous kid from Galilee his included aspects of so many things...the original "catch me if you can," perhaps he was so free from the institutions, that he could serve them all, to some degree and so its no wonder we always fail (and fight) when we try to pin down the values of the "prince of peace" and when there is a system that can live up to that caliber of universal care...it might be safe to say that He will have returned to the world i think we will know it when there is real and actual worldwide peace and joy (don't hold yer breath, right?) ... but that aside...i do think the world is in dire need of a more effective level of international dialogue about the relationships between politics and religion (and business) but i am not sure if enough influential people are capable or willing...let alone believe such a thing is valuable or possible sadly, these days....such a dialogue may even cause more war, not less (and so we mostly only talk about religion over here, politics over there, and business over there) and especially sad if those who hold the keys of power do not even believe that there are values or morals higher than (and complimentary to) their own...they will simply never bother to reach for what they will not consider...how can they? but having said that...things are simply more complex than they ever were and psychological and cultural and social and technological diversity continues to explode and frighten the heck out of most of us

I am not speaking metaphorically or poetically here, either...but literally Do we literally touch each other's hearts via what we read and write? Does some actual aspect of our original intentions actually move through these avenues of light and electricity, and then enter our soul through our eyes and thoughts, then finally coming to actually touch the heart and soul of each other? If so...how often do we take this sacred and naked act of communion for granted? And if so...is it possible to pollute each other? Do each and every one of our words continue to live and have a kind of life of their own once they leave our heart and mind and body? If so...are we responsible for them?

well, hell...i sure wish i knew how to write what i think and feel and know about all that ...and the things i wish i knew at least i dont feel bad for hoping you were wrong, dear Bramble ...maybe some day

i hear ya i guess that's why i started this thread, dear Bramble with hope of inspiring greater possibility in spite of the gloom

something else from another forum that i found useful... and from here...The Key to Effective Religious Dialogue A few things that stuck out for me that might help us here... 5. Each partipant should be allowed self-definition 6. There should be no preconception as to areas of disagreement 7. Dialogue can only occur between equals 8. Dialogue can only occur where there is mutual trust 9. Participants must be self-critical of their religious beliefs ...which came from here

oh yeah...very cool thanks, Bramble now, i know and agree that more rules are not what this board wants or needs but for the purposes of this thread, which is to explore possibilities i think it might be worth looking at them and asking ourselves if they might have any value not as rules, either and not because we are somehow supposed to do this ...but because we can and because things like this might actually work Beliefnet: Rules of Conduct i think the first five most apply to interfaith dialogue and here is what googles: Interfaith Dialogue

yeah, moony...i am looking forward to learning from Dr Byock, especially in the context of this program. from what i understand, he will be spending at least a few days with us and i agree with your assessment of it being a meaningful vocation but even more...there is a direct connection between our quality of dying and our quality of living (not to mention our quality of birthing) and how things like masculine violence and greed have been shown to be connected to our growing inability to process grief so perhaps even more than a meaningful vocation...our new world needs badly to at least REgain the level of dignity and grace that many of the old world cultures had already learned about dying heck, even Dame Cicely herself said that the modern Hospice, as amazingly widespread as it has become, had still failed to come close to the quality of care it reached in the 11th to 15th centuries, and is at risk of being absorbed (and weakened) by the western medicine modalities i mean, consider how wonderful the modern hospice movement is and has been for millions...then multiply it by ten or more ...cuz this points to the caliber and degree of care for the dying that was found in places like Spain, France, Scotland, Ireland, etc... prior to the 15th century, and then going back thousands of years

wondering... what are the tools/"secrets" for dialogue between people of different faiths? what value might such a level of dialogue have? what benefits? are there examples from history we can reflect on? are there examples in the present day?

hehe...this part just reminded me of something else i'm not sure if it was Jung or Einstein who said it, but from what i recall, they said: "in the 21st century, our scientists will become mystics, and our clergy will become psychologists"

thanks Sunesis well...to add...i think that Christianity has already experienced some deeply mystic and monastic waves (which were most often quite seperate movements from those of common church history) who had a lot to say about the benefits of a kind of spiritual death in this life ...not because of what they found in word studies...but from actually having "touched" it for themselves here is a wikipedia article on Christian Mysticism check out the (hugely incomplete) list of Christian mystics towards the bottom of the article some of whose writings have been available for centuries ...which, of course, were off-limits to us in twi (except as advanced class junk table material) some of my favorites from the list are St. John of the Cross's "Dark Night of the Soul," and anything by (or about) Thomas Merton or Meister Eckhart and too...considering the cultural roots of Jesus, its hard to completely seperate the lineages of Christian mysticism from those of Jewish mysticism (such as the Kabbalistic movements and those crazy Essenes) in this sense, Christianity not only took some old traditions further but also stands on their shoulders as somewhat dependent to them and to take it a step further...it seems as if many of the eastern lineages (including Buddhism) may have even been strongly influenced by the likes of Abraham (who was also eastern and not a Jew), which then also points to ole' legendary Melchizadek, and notion of an "Order of Melchizadek," and that kind of archetypal influence on such things... yada yada but of course, now we are getting way off topic so...my point...is that, even the past two millenia of Christianity are already saturated with genuine deeply mystic and spiritual lives and writings and experiences which have tons to say about things like "them which are asleep" ...though not to discount what Sunesis said about a present day awakening in Christianity...i see and believe this as well, to a certain degree anyway...by way of blatant reference to something i wrote earlier, here is my feeble attempt to stay on topic

yeah...there sure are things we still dont understand...the mystery never ends..thank Godbut we actually do know quite a bit more than we ever have...a lot more and...many spiritual traditions had already come to know a lot in ways that we have forgotten or otherwise disregarded consciousness studies, dreamwork, shadow-work and spirituallity have become a big part of my life since twi days though such subjects are never easy to bring up around here, for a number of obvious and not-so-obvious reasons a good place to start: Consciousness there are some great links at the bottom of the page, too...real white rabbits, i would call them yeah...and very directly related to the subject of this thread, imoi would even go as far as to say that there is a place beyond dreams where you are still there. (which journey is much like dying, if not part of the same actual processes) and this has been discovered to be an ordinary human capacity, though if it is not commonly known or practiced...it may seem extraordinary or somehow abnormal in a sense, part of our human evolution is to find that which has always been there ...which is the nature of awareness itself...I AMness we are evolving not just to become aware...but to become aware of awareness whether it is while waking, dreaming, or in deep dreamless sleep prayer, contemplation, meditation, etc...history and traditions are full of arts/sciences/practices that help prepare us to touch and taste this dying and what lies beyond...before it comes to us "outta the blue" as they say in this sense, our "spirit" is the very substance of our consciousness...which is the actual clearing where our body and soul dance together but if we dont believe such a clearing exists...we are like fish who do not know how wet we really are this is the essence of "spiritual unconsciousness" we may be aware of our body to some degree we may be aware of our soul to some degree but we may not be aware of the nature and substance of awareness itself the ancients practiced staying awake and aware even into the deepest states of sleep (sometimes called "climbing the mountain of God") only to find out that which already always exists everywhere ...the archetypal "big duh moment" the Biblical terms "rest" and "witness" have a lot to do with this state of mind...or "mind of Christ" "Christ Consciousness" it has been called anyway...that's my ramble for this morning

yeah, Abi...well said this is something i just love about some of the Rabbis i have met, and about those whose traditions are not as hellbent on accuracy and rightness...they know the importance of a good story, and a good, living sense of ritual...and are comfortable with a sense of the endless mystery and how, like our lives, all scripture (and sacred oral tradition) is really just divine story...and that could be more important and more valuable to us once we learn to let go of our death grip on interpretation i think we are somehow more free when we can be like this in our spiritual life

well, believe it or not, E...that means a whole heckuva lot to me, coming from you and btw...for what its worth...my mom's life turned inside out and upside down when she turned 50 (and in all the good ways) it was a real crossroads for her...when everything started to come together and all the crud and crapola of her early years began to change into her wisdom and her gifts ...and i think especially because she is actually watching it happen, and her kids are too anyway...i long for a world when growing old can be seen as the gift it is and to have the dignity and grace for when it is not a gift at all (gawd, E, i hope that didnt sound like i think yer getting old fast or anything....i actually love talking to you for your youthfulness )

no, allan...let me be very clear on this... ...mean and nasty only comes in when people deceptively reframe comments by putting words in people's mouth (things they DID NOT SAY or think), and menace them, and simply repeat the same kind of behaviour and statements over and over and over ...like you just did, and tend to do for the record (go back and read) i have never gotten mean and nasty when someone simply disagreed ask around dude...i have been posting here for years...and i love this place, and all the people here i dont go around attacking people's values or beliefs...we are all going through changes and though i may ask questions from time to time...and offer suggestions...i dont latch on or dig in and you are simply wrong on this...and may be the last to know it but if the moderators wont do anything about your habits...i reserve the right to get as mean and nasty as i wish and in your face if you ACT ON YOUR belief that you have some sort of right to continue to make false and deceptive statements about one's private life, one's intentions, and other stuff you simply do not know, cannot know, will not even look into, and would be dishonest to even claim to know there is a difference between stating someone's opinion about life and death and God and the Bible... and making personal statements about poster's intentions do you even know the difference? read the book of James, for God's sake please, for the Love of God...just write from your own truth and experience about things you understand, or stop typing at all observe, contribute, or move the heck on in fact, i wish you would start a thread about something you are interested in start a thread and write about something other than your negative opinions about a poster ...post something you believe in, and are interested in sharing something that is not about starting a fight, or a point of contention but about following the Prince of Peace, yada yada...

hmmm gratefully reading all the responses on this thread...thank you reality sure has a powerful way of intruding on well-prepared concepts and theories ...may we let them intrude that we may become wiser ...and yes...may we never cease to be amazed

i'm also wondering if it is necessary to make such statements what does it serve to publicly imply that "one must wonder" if there are other doctrines driving an interpretation? may i ask what larger doctrines and sets of doctrines you suspect? and i am assuming you are speaking about not only Clay's opinion, but mine, and anyone else's who may have recognized something that they can relate to in this thread but i will go as far as to speak for myself, and my self alone on this... ...doctrines do not drive me any more...i am free to fly (tho it kinda sucks to try and contribute spiritual thoughts and spiritual feelings to a public forum and having to defend one's words most all the time...as if in some sort of courtroom, rather than a cyber-cafe)

i cant help but wonder why you would make such a series of bold and absolute statements, Goey one can really only speak for themselves on such matters, it seems yet here, you seem to be speaking on behalf of everyone as if you are giving some sort of final word on this thread ...just wondering if you noticed that

thanks again, you guys and i tell ya...if anyone is interested...one of the most interesting and enlightening things i have been learning is all the many different merging and intersecting histories of the world's various healing traditions ...ranging from 3000 bc to present especially how there was some really amazing interfaith hospice work that happened in europe (especially spain) prior to the inquisition (when over 30 million books were burned throughout Spain) ...there were actual dialogues between jewish, christian, and muslim thinkers and healers surrounding hospice care in those days and there are a ton of amazing manuscripts, artifacts and relics used in the historical part of these classes, too where people from all over the world have just given this stuff to this center for the work they have been doing i actually got to handle one of those tear-bottles mentioned in the gospels (made from the thinnest roman glass) from the first century ..it even still has salt crusted on the inside for a kid like me...its kinda like being in an Indiana Jones movie..hehe ...i find this stuff almost as exciting and rewarding as learning how to communicate with people in a coma

ha..yeah very nice post, Goey worth a thread of its own, fer sure peace