sirguessalot

Joseph, plz pardon my exuberance in responding and thanks for starting this thread...really cant say i read or understand all of your story but it caught my eye like a hook catches a fish, i guess even asking who ultimately interpets a thing seems a valid question as how ...helps get us beneath things who is the ultimate witness of things like dreams and waking visions? ...is a very old and useful question in and of itself

this stuck out, too cuz i'm sure we all often ask...is it ok to re-interpret my experiences and stories of life? im also sure that who and how we ask varies wildly perhaps an even better way to ask...how can i, with dignity and grace, continue to review and transform my perspectives in a way that is without shame...and free?

there is, it seems, a relationship between form and formlessness that are described as masculine and femine in nature and both are always already infinite and everpresent as one a romance, a marriage, a balance, a polarity all singular notions these days, it seems as though we often only live as form in relation to formlessness (like fish who do not know we are wet or stars who are afraid of falling forever in the dark) "where is the darkness that yields to the light?" ...very good question one worthy of repeating to ourself without getting trapped in an answer another might be..."who are you to ask such a thing?" curiously precisely kindly and such as always we hope

seperation from God seems to imply some sense of otherness between you and whatever you find yourself calling ultimate reality much like the relationship of tree and leaf...ocean and raindrop how radically different perspectives are equally true

without context any single answer seems but a word in the sand as every word has its own story in every hearer seems obvious to me tho...that mankind is experiencing a new set of spiritual problems, anyway or rather...a cocktail of all previous spiritual problems...with a new twist, as always thank the holy whatever this is that i have found that my spiritual problem really my most direct path to man's overall spiritual problem. heerz 3 words have help me remember how to find out where my spiritual problem is today: ...curiousity ...precision ...compassion these 3 seem to go best when applied as one rather than alone

from where i am...there are notions of non duality that hold space for any number is there not already always a profound unity...right here, right now? in an ocean of profound unities? is there not already always a profound duality...right here, right now? in an ocean of profound dualities? is there not already always a profound triunity...right here, right now? in an ocean of profound trinities? fournesses fivenesses sixnesses etc... always true as such regardless as to whether or not we ever get around to measuring it there is a trinity in a cup of tea there is a trinity in the cycles of the ocean and rain if there is trinity already always everywhere big and small.... how could one not call it holy?

for what its worth..some of you guys might get a kick out of... a few things ive recently learned about that "original trip" as it happened prior to the days when the acid met the bluejeans in the vans by the river scientists in europe tripped over LSD in the 5Os some of whom have gone on to become pioneers in fields of psychology and other things including ways to recover prenatal and perinatal experiences via dreams and breath and whatnot as well as what i would call "deathbed dreamwork" or "midwifery into the afterlife" yada yada off the jungian deep end, fer sure and a little tribal at times so it helps to have a guide

...is never the same

welcome to the gsc, Joe just passing thru, as usual ...though more like a gargoyle on an abbey, perhaps and this thread caught my eye so...permit a tad rant... ive only read thru this thread once and i find myself agreeing with Roy a lot on this one and this stuck out, too... someone wrote: agreed...and too, we often reduce meaning to such things...but i find it less than helpful when we do cuz i would add that kind of experience to a long list of other very valid and real (and often painful) human conditions that can induce incredible dreams and visions, such as: + during pregnancy and birth (as well as being born) + in sickness and dying, during comas + long periods of fasting, lack of sleep + breathing techniques, or even lack of oxygen + meditation and/or prolonged periods of prayer + periods of diet change + medication, drugs, herbs + injury to head, birth defects, or sudden trauma + psychological pathologies, regressions and disorders + strongly transitional periods of life (typically dark and painful) + movement thru developmental stages of awareness etc... :blink: ok, for example... imagine if you will...a large tribe of emerging aboriginal jews escaping from an institutional slavery ...led by a man who did crazy things like fast on mountaintops...until he talked to a burning weed in the desert ...they created ritual ways of living such as building tents within tents and temples within temples burning A LOT of pure herbs in the innermost parts anointing with A LOT of very potent oils fasting for days praying for days singing for days dreams, visions, make abstract predictions... and all kinds of relatively radical behavior that supports an intense experience of dream life (sleeping or waking) yada yada yada etc... just go sit in the woods and starve alone for over a month and you are likely to meet some sort of dragon, too i would think yet many facets of our culture have come to fear and devalue even common dreams which is more or less making us even more sick and insane than usual and quite hypocritical...especially from any fundamentalist perspective and those various deathgrips on interpretation SOME rationales and motivations behind the "war on drugs" are as anthropologically challenged as they are scripturally and that era of acid trips often makes a good scapegoat :blink: anyway...our culture of shame, doubt, ignorance, taboos... we typically and foolishly reduce our spectrum of interpretive means in spite of the fact that we are up to our eyeballs in a very increasingly exotic reality particularly in the fields of human states of mind, heart, soul, dreams, visions..whatever but we typically flee from the deeper pains of being alive or try to get around them ...when we should be leaning into them so we can move through them and there is so much about those pains (mine and ours) are all tied up in and solved via our dream life and our visionary life and so... given the present reactionary and frantic state of the world... and the way we flee the darkness of our own dreaming and hoping souls... its no wonder we are so confused and insane most of the time ....we are drowning in our own cynicism, fundamentalism, narcissim, isolation...and other post modern meaninglessnesses...where religion alone is failing, as is science sometimes i feel that if not for the grace of God we would merely be doomed for what its worth... space and grace, +ODD

hm..yeah a few thoughts... Abi, you have reminded me of how words like "spirit" and "soul" are really just interchangable labels and the way they are used really is wild and varied, from person to person and tradition to tradition and as you have pointed out, some traditions have come to use "soul" for what i have called "spirit" in this thread and there are at least a dozen ways "spirit" is used and has been used throughout history (with hundreds of correlates in other languages) and sometimes the meanings are in direct opposition of each other ...and there are perhaps at least twice as many ways "soul" is used and this linguistic condition was already "bad," and has only gotten "worse" with post-modernity, it seems but i would think that as long the listeners/readers are are clear about the intent behind the word being used there should be no confusion because i'm sure it is ok with God, that we can call something whatever we want or need, as long as everyone knows what we are talking about and sometimes, the regular ole' common vernacular language becomes such an impatient inter-ethnic re-hashed over-bashed global puddle of re-re-re-regurgitated kaleidoscopic jargon and inuendo....that we almost need to invent new words that have never been used before in order to speak with any sort of meaning at all along these lines...in working with the dying (which, in a wider sense...we are all on that road, to some degree) being right is not important as simply listening deeply to what is trying to be MEANT, and it's amazing how everyone has (or is searching for) a word for that which is simply ineffable

i learn from a lot of someones, sprawled as well as a lot of making stuff up as i go along ...a mixed cocktail, ya know and beyond words, really and with such relatively little time to explain when it comes to words, often times all i can do is throw things at things so i am somewhat of a beggar with a bowl, here i do hope you will please permit me to NOT provide you with an answer to one of those impossible kinds of "either/or" questions ...by way of this tad ramble cuz i think there comes a point when one realizes that the master teacher is already always everywhere all you have to do is shut up and get out of the way...completely simultaneously doubting and trusting everything making a habit of shining light into shadows and daring to look at that which is taboo in a strange sense...the darkness is your greatest and most direct guide through the darkness the pain is your only way through the suffering ignorance is the only way through ignorance and our Spirit (as this clearing) is that which illuminates YOU ARE already the menorah of awareness WE ARE already the temple of spiritual understanding IF...we can find a way to rest in mutual clarity and nakedness our spirit is that which is most clear and free, and thus, provides clarity and if we can rest as spirit...we will unflinchingly look at any book, any belief and we can observe (within) the structures of our own faith and beliefs as an ongoing process of change and so...to tell ya the truth...what keeps me from listing my sources and inspirations is that it would be like writing a long autobiography of many people and books and its an even harder story to tell in an environment that is still reeling from a lot of pain from religious abuse and a lot of competing fears regarding both scientific language and religious language and other things so as that beggar...i sit here begging for a spare change of simple reflections in a language that is a bit more direct and archetypically neutral ...i dunno

thanks for chiming in, you guys and i hear ya abi i am presently up to my ears in a lot of different things going on, too in fact, i'm somewhat surprised i started this thread and now thinking i may not get to those other verses any time soon <_< i guess now would be a good time to sit back as Spirit and witness the pressures roiling around within the ole' body and soul...hehe ...so as not to confuse them for my self btw...yeah, dancing...clothing says a lot "...to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded" says a lot

a few sections of my favorite verses on this spiritual perspective...emphasis and quick comments are mine ...plz pardon the ease with which i write of such incredibly sacred and potent "things" Ezekial 1:22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above. clear as crystal, our native spiritual perspective radiates infinitely upwards and outwards from every living being 1 Kings 19:12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice. even though the spiritual perspective is and was and will always already be right here and now ...we have to exhaust ourselves searching for it before we realize the simplicity but silence and stillness are often too terrifying to behold ...almost impossible to experience Matthew 18:3-4 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. to "enter into the kingdom of heaven" is to leave behind our earthly perspectives (body and soul) and the only way to rest in this heavenly perspective is to completely surrender to that which is and find comfort in that sense of I AMness even though this is perhaps the simplest smallest step we can take it is also perhaps the most radical shift in perspective possible (which is why we often think that only special people like Moses can do it) Romans 1:19-23 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. if you can, try and strip off all ideas that God is an object, or thing but rather, read this as if God is the ultimate observer of all things God is that which is invisible, clear, and everywhere God is that gracious spacious infinity that simply allows us to be and allows us to see and so when we can rest in the "eye of God" (as it has been called) when we can rest in our spacious sense of self ...the glory of God is evident...unavoidable and to the depth and degree in which we can rest in this spiritual perspective this glory is simply brilliant everything simply glows and shines with obvious divinity in non-dual radiance whether its something oft considered beautiful (such as a flower) or a slab of broken, cracked and stained pavement in an alley or a carcass rotting in the sun ...the glory of God is already always there Shekinhah it has been called in Jewish tradition the "glory of God" is what we can't help but see when we shift our perspective to that of Spirit observing Spirit in everything Romans 8:16-18 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. just as our body and soul moves from subject to object when our wide open spirit moves from subject to object there is found a paradox that simply shatters our perspective into something new because we find our selves to be that clearing in which body and soul arise and when that which is clear observes that which is clear...we are free because "we" are more than body and soul, and we actually witness this to be true for ourselves in fact all notions of "self" are born all over again after having been pregnant all these years of our life and everything we have ever known simply becomes more and more than it ever was 2 Corinthians 3:17-18 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. this is why this Spiritual perspective, as i have barely begun to describe it, is the ground of all being when we rest in it, we are no longer trapped in our body and soul and so we are able to openly observe them both and being able to observe them, we are able to allow them to change, change, change this capacity to truly relax as the space our body and soul dwells in allows the tangled knots of our existence to finish the work they have to do because there is pain and suffering in change but when we mistakenly think we are merely our soul and body this suffering is unbearable, and we resist to change our soul is to die and we dont want to die which is why we need to change our sense of who we are in order to help our soul die and be reborn thus, AS SPIRIT, we are more free to change than ever before from glory to glory, our perspective shifts again and again and it doesn't bother us any more death is no longer an enemy, but a beloved friend that frees us simply because we have found and settled into that sense of self which existed prior to death ...and will exist long after...forever and ever, amen (as they used to say) ... next...some stuff from 1 Corinthians 15

an offering, dear friends and an expression of what our cage might look like when opening inside btw...the Enneagram is another very useful typology the "9 faces of God" it used to be called peace, +ODD

this classic notion of our triune nature is not unique to twi, of course...nor is it unique to Christianity ...and as with all things, there always seems room for more unfolding and unpacking so i thought i would start a new thread as an offering in a temple planted like a seed here is a small synthesis of my understanding ...in my own words i look forward to any reflections that may arise from reading it ... When we are born, we identify with our body, which is why we can't see it. To us, all there is is the world around us. But once we do realize that we have a body, we cease to identify with our body and begin to identify with our soul, instead. ...this is the first step But once again, we can't see that which we identify with. As our soul, all we now see is our body and the world. And so our body becomes the object of our self, and the soul becomes the subject of our self. But once (if) we realize that we also have a soul, we cease to identify with it, as well, and begin to identify with our spirit. ...this is the second step Soul and body are now the object of our self, and the spirit is the subject of our self. At this point, we see that we have a physical body and also we see that we also have dreams, thoughts, memories, and experiences that are less than tangible, but nonetheless, quite real. But if our body is that part of our self which is most solid and our soul is that part of our self which is least solid then what exactly is our spirit? I will venture to say that our spirit is the clearing that both body and soul exist in. Because there is indeed a sense of spaciousness within each of us from where we witness both body and soul Not something we must attain but something we must rest within Because this Spirit of God is invisible and without form and eternal and everywhere both within and without just as the scriptures declare and as such, it is the Witness of all things ...the most obvious and unavoidable truth of them all This is where we must learn to sit in order to hear the still small voice Such an amazing paradox A profound foolishness And perhaps even terrifying Such vastness But i am convinced that this is the ground of our being If you are wondering what i am talking about all you have to do is ask yourself..."who am I?" When you observe your body...ask yourself who and what is observing your body When you observe your thoughts...ask yourself who and what is observing your thoughts When you dream at night...ask yourself who and what is observing your dreams If you come up with any sort of object, ask again...who and what is observing that? And when you can rest in this witness, you will see the nature of the Spirit of God. Radically clear and free and freeing Because not only do you have a body and a soul but you are the wide open space in which both of them dance this is the third step, but this is really only the beginning of another path...not the end of anything I AM the way...the kid said ...man o man how we have misunderstood who he was talking about its simply much too simple peace, +ODD

e, that has got to be one of the greatest questions...ever that question we find after we're done asking all the many dumber questions we needed to ask cuz life can be loss after loss after loss after loss and when nothing is left and we are still here there is a clarity i dunno

some thoughts on the overall topic... i'll try not to put everyone to sleep from what i understand mankind is in an ongoing relationship with God one that grows and grows and grows and builds and builds and builds such is the nature of the temples and gardens, i suppose and so our perspective of divinity also grows and grows and grows and builds and builds and builds and a very simple way to see this in values clashes of the OT, and in terrorism today is accepting that there is a spectrum of faith, and using it to see how stages relate to each other and where each stage of faith requires the previous stage to get where it is ....God being involved at every stage, of course simple example: every culture started at a value system based on sheer survival and a deep relationship with a brutal environment ...we could call it "red" or 1 ...and it had a lot to do with nature and bloodlines but this level of values needed something beyond mere survival to unite tribes and so out of it came a higher value system we could call "orange" or 2 ...and it had a lot to do with some mythic moral idea that united people beyond mere survival ...and so a new kind of family emerged that was beyond bloodline and of course, some bloodlines realized this before others (thus the OT clashes) but this level of values needed something beyond mere myth to explain reality and so out of it came a higher value system we could call "yellow" or 3 ...and it had a lot to do with personal independence and the beginnings of rational thought ...we first saw this wave in civilization in recent centuries, even though individuals and small groups dabbled long before (such as the great thinkers of history) but this level of values needed something beyond mere rugged individualism and so out of it came a higher value system we could call "green" or 4 ...and it had a lot to do with universal compassion and care regardless of all previous value systems ...we first saw this wave in civilization in the last century with things like civil rights even though individuals and small groups dabbled long before (such as the great saints of history) but this level of values needed something beyond mere compassion but i will not get into the other "colors," in order to spare yall a long post ...but i think you might get the point every "color" of values brings a gift, but has a limit (and an ugly side) and every "color" of values needs the support of previous values (such as survival, story, independence, compassion, etc...) btw..i am only using colors and numbers because they are more-or-less neutral labels and i am really only addressing values in a collective sense, as opposed to other traits and individual considerations that said... Galen, i think you may really be onto something but i suggest that you dont stop at an "orange" interpretation of the OT even though the people of the OT period were moving through that stage what we see in the OT with Amalek, is how those who share the "red" values are threatened by those who share the "orange" values of the Israelites (and shared mythic family value). and the OT stories were written in a "red" world where "orange" was trying to emerge. But terrorism today is a bit more complicated than that, because the phenomenon of terrorism is being carried out by "reds" and "oranges" in a world that is "yellow" and very rapidly trying to be "green" and beyond and those who still live in the "red" and "orange" values of a younger earth most naturally feel as if the world no longer has room for them and are lashing out and this has been true of muslims, christians, buddhists, hindus, aboriginies, atheist anarchists, etc... and those who live in the "orange" and "yellow" and "green" values simply do not have the perspective that it takes to solve the problem and so typically make things worse to summarize...the OT stories are pointing at something very valid but lack the capacity to address the complexity of what is happening today ...my 2 cents

these articles might help: Spanish Jews Golden Age of Jewish Culture in Spain The Golden Age of Arab-Jewish Coexistence Sephardi Jews Alhambra decree I have been learning a bit about an amazing medieval interfaith movement in Spain, involving Jews, Muslims, Christians and others (such as Celts). And yeah, there was a horrible persecution in the 15th century, where millions of people and books and buildings were destroyed. And being that this Iberian mysticism movement was such an important part of the larger original Hospice movement of Europe, a lot of good things seemed to die at once in those days. And it seems we have never quite recovered from it. It seems someone wicked was emboldened by news of the discovery of a new world with an 'endless' supply of exploitable riches. :blink: Good to see you too, Abi

thinking of interfaith dialogue... thought i would post links to some related threads not to revive them but to refresh our memory of some interesting conversations we've had in this context (and tried to have) Interfaith Dialogue How can love be manifest via written dialogue? Open Assumptions and Common Ground Spiritual Dialogue Sessions Biblical/Scriptural/Doctrinal Prejudices and Racisms

i thought this article might add a perspective to the Genesis account (not that it re-explains anything, or that it replaces anything...just that it adds a little cuz i really dont think the Genesis story can be so easily reduced to any one thing, anyway )

like i said...multiplied, amplified, and exploding in our face

well...for what it's worth, here are some relevent links Global Change Master Directory especially check out the "Environmental Impacts" section under "Human Dimensions" EPA on Global Warming Global Change Data and Information System NOAA Global Warming FAQs Compendium of Data on Global Change Wikipedia: Climate Change...and here is an interesting look at the trends versus the non-trends Climate Change: New Antarctic Ice Core Data (especially check out the last blip of the graph on this one...that red line going straight up)

imo, our dreaming life is a very vital and natural part of human experience and always has been since the dawn of time, in all traditions and cultures the arts and sciences of dreaming are vast and varied (as well as a lot of pop-fluff) dreams are made of real "stuff," and have real causes, and real effects on our bodies and minds (and relationships) and lucid and pellucid dreaming are like having a private movie theater to view the deeper aspects of self there are things we can observe about our self that we cannot observe any other way on the flip side...to ignore or avoid dreams, is to miss out on a vital gift of inward knowing just as there are consequences to not eating, there are consequences to not dreaming like lack of sleep, lack of healthy relationship with our dreams is to ignore a lot of important things going on inside of us they play very important roles in times of transition, in childhood, in pregnancy, and especially in illness and dying also, the way our modern society has removed effective rites of passage work for young men keeps those unresolved "father-wound" dreams going and going for men until old age, where they will most likely intensify, if they are not suppressed altogether i havent been able to find a good strictly Christian oriented site on dreaming that doesnt involve a lot of fear, but there are some good books that have been written on the subject here is a link to The Bible and Psychology also, "Dreams and Healing" by John A Sanford has got to be one of the best books on the subject and here is one link on Dreamwork just my 2 cents hope it helps, Nandon Peace, Todd

there is always a difference between what actually happened and our interpretation of what happened and hopefully, our interpretation is subject to evolve but there is some good science happening in these fields though slowly, due to old institutional fears and prejudices and there is good and useful practical religious tools from history even if the language is dated but another problem is when something actually happens and so someone interprets the experience (as we all must) but another does not agree with the interpretation but they go to far and say "nothing really happened" and "nothing ever really happens" but this is not helpful at all i would even go as far as to call it potentially harmful cuz if something happened and my sanity demands that i interpret it yet social pressure demands that i forget it... ...something is going to be repressed and pain that is not transformed is always transmitted just my 2 cents Todd

hi all i just saw the flic last night and it seems as if we have the temperature and carbon data going back 600,000 years as well as all kinds of other data (that many either refuse to look at, or are simply unaware of) and there seems to be a lot of misconceptions and disinformation surrounding this topic and misplaced concern for economical factors as well as denial of responsibility it is the 3rd millenium, and it seems as if the tragedy of the commons has been multiplied, amplified and exploded in our face along with the population growth and materialism and narcissism old habits die hard, i guess and old habits and new toys don't go together very well just my 2 cents peace, Todd