sirguessalot

my 2 cents i think chatty pointed right at it ...it is about the attitudes and intentions that cause behaviour very very loosely... to "come from below" is to move upward...to want to get to a better state...as in improvement describes those who are still looking for eternal life, salvation, perfection, liberation, peace, nirvana, etc... to "come from above" is to move downward...to want to get to a worse state....as in surrender describes those who prefer neither heaven nor hell, and would rather serve where the needs are...in hell for thousands of years...human history was naturally about the upward climb..where earth was seen a dirty painful mortal place the early prophets and saints were typically dudes who spent a lot of time in silence in order to escape mortality..those first upward movers so it was a leap in awareness to intentionally descend like jesus did and to recognize that the next huge change that needed to happen was this descending current of intention from our highest places but i think we tend to read so much myth into the story that we miss the practical understanding that comes with "ascension" and "descension" ...we miss the point by trying to pinpont an accuracy and force concrete meanings to words and notions that were never there in the first place much of ancient jewish thought commonly used stories of otherworldy places and otherworldy characters to teach profound and living lessons and imo, this makes the stories of the Bible more and more valuable...not less in our concern for our safety (in our own "coming from below") we often simply get lost in the words and lose our capacity to discern how these currents manifest in the world where thousands of years later, mere ascension alone is still so dominant in our thought ...and in the name of jesus? :blink: i dunno and i suppose it wouldnt help any more if i was to add that "above" is also referring to that which is inward and "below" is that which is outward

i've been in a led zeppelin phase for a week or so now Kashmir is the song of the moment

diggin it, man and must say i love the way we (and some others) come to dance like this oh so hypertextually over the years deeply ... yet also lightly and too...funny part is... how it doesnt seem to fit as a "doctrinal" discussion more like rambling poets who struggle to find words to describe things that are beyond description foolish fun, it seems...as always :B)

hmm lemme try it like this (but i'll reduce down to the basic 3 again) 3 ways to describe the basic range of "states" are - waking, dreaming and sleeping - gross, subtle and causal - body, soul and spirit when we are awake...we are in a state of experiencing our gross body when we are dreaming...we are in a state of experiencing subtler soul when we are sleeping...we are in a state of experiencing causal spirit another way of describing "state" might be "altitude" ... but ... our "standing" can be understood as more of an architectual development...or the actual object of our self awareness ...where, as we add floors to our inner temple of understanding, we are more conscious of "states" at higher altitudes like saying the more floors we add to our temple...the easier it is to look out the windows at higher altitudes otherwise...we have to be caught up to those higher "states" by other means such as i mentioned before... various addictions have a lot to do with people wanting to access higher states without having to permanently change some spiritual practice can be described as getting out on the roof and sketching out a new addition ...or...reaching up from one's "standing" to taste and touch higher "states" in order to prepare to transform that "state" into "standing" ...to change a mere altitude (a place that is in mid air) into a stable shelf on which to rest upon til ready to build again meditation and contemplation does this for us to practice being in higher "states: in order to get a feel for how to build something permanent there make sense?

(previous post) reminds me of something important ive come to understand from various schools of thought ...something that is akin to VPWs difference between one's "state" and one's "standing" except VPW presented a stripped-down monolithic flat version where there are only 2 (or so) basic "states" ...and 2 (or so) basic "standings" - "state" being a temporary place of being one can move in and out of...as in "a state of fellowship" - "standing" being a more permanent place of being that cannot change...as in one's "standing" as a son only i would have to expand it quite a bit more to include an entire spectrum of both "states" and "standings" simply put...there is a sense of self-awareness in us that moves from "rung-to-rung" in way that is utterly linear and vertical ...where we cannot skip a step, nor can we move in reverse ... we now find our "standing" on a new step ...in other words...once a seal is broken, it is broken...we move from faith to faith, as it were not only would i say that our permanent sense of self-awareness moves from body to soul to spirit in a manner that can be described as our "standing" ...but that there are even many much finer distinctions between each of those 3 steps that can be discerned and appreciated as a spectrum but...and...too... all of those steps can also be experienced as less permanent "states" of self-awareness in fact, we pretty much move through the entire spectrum of "states" every single day of our life ... from body to soul to spirit ...including those same kinds of finer spectrums of distinctions between each of those 3 states an example...we can be "standing" at a place of mythic awareness (where we translate our experience of reality through the lense of some specific story-language...such as PFAL) but one day we enter a much higher state of spiritual experience we can only explain this higher "state" from where we "stand" ...we simply cannot explain the "state" from a place we have never "stood" thus, one may experience a profound series of dreams, visions, intuitions, archetypes, etc... only to describe it as an experience of demons, angels, and other mythic otherwordly characters i think its important to note that this is healthy for an 8 year old not for the president of a modern global military industrial complex :blink: and too..i think its important to note that "higher" (thinner) states of awareness are not hard to come by we flit about in and out of them all ... all the time most often without even knowing it as such one can reach highest kinds of states of awarenes in a wide variety of ways..such as... - being tortured and hanging on a cross - meditation, contemplation, fasting - pregancy, illness, injury, dying - sex, drugs, rock n roll - any radically new environment or experience - etc...

for what its worth, penguin and whomever i consider both OT and NT (including the gospels) a deeply jewish book more than anything i think that perhaps the entire book is off limits to most christians and catholics alike mostly because of 2000 years of basically rejecting most all jewish attitudes on the matter there is a saying that "one must be a good jew before they can be a good christian" says a lot about the deeply jewish purposes of Jesus's mission and life and without an understanding of the broad range of jewish attitudes towards their scriptures and storytelling (which is about way more than just the mere lexicon and atlas stuff that both jews and christians often get stuck in) and strange as it sounds..i would go as far as to recommend that christians should stick to studying christian histories of the past 2000 years ...as something that is largely different from what most of the bible was talking about...though quite valid in its own ways and there is plenty of amazing worthwhile books and character and histories to study there...no doubt and perhaps not all of it, but the most important parts of it, i would even go as far as to include it in the world's "books of dying" ...meaning...that the way we try and use the books these days (as a basis for theological, moral and political purposes) is pretty much way off the mark, and only exacerbates our religious intolerances towards each other and the NT is largely a record of the jesus starting a movement that helped the jews finally discover the value of truths beyond their own racial lineages ...a spiritual rediscovery of color red that saved many jews from the world and save the world from many jews of course, this may seem less than the magical mythical jesus stories many seem to prefer but i find that the bible only INCREASES in value with such a position meaning...it may actually help mankind as a book this way where the exclusive tribal approach obviously is NOT and perhaps even increasingly so same can be said for any other old scripture btw..i am not a jew by race or religion...though i think i have a very jewish foot or two

again...like i mentioned in other threads about other related topics (because they are all interrelated) ...this notion of discerning of spirits was common to more than just the first christians the 9 manifestations of God the 9 faces of God etc... spoke not only of the stages of the process by which all existance manifests but spoke of the various ways in which we are born into it as humans in other words not only could one observe the 9 steps that a dinner party manifests itself but one could recognize the 9 basic types of people in the world to discern the textures and contours of this not only included intellectual knowledge but emotional and intuitive skills and practices as well and discern the ways that these 9 energies interact and relate to each other these thoughts and practices were alive in pre-christian jewish, egyptian, celtic cultures and others and even flourished beyond what is recorded in the epistles at the hands of muslims and others throughout history ...the maps overlap quite well and again...the language we use to describe a thing or process is never the same as that thing or process being described and so we may find that form and shape of that which our language holds (as a vessel) is the same or very similar to that being held by another language this, i believe, is a huge part of discerning of spirits... where, if the spirit of God manifests in another tongue...one can simply tell ...from the numbers, colors, sounds, and various archetypes all leave their trace across all the languages of man like i said...there can come a point in any one's life when the theological debates are over yet not simply because one stops arguing...but because the commonality beyond the words becomes unmistakable and our fear of betraying our tribe no longer has a hold on us and causes us to "flinch" we see that the family of God is ultimately red underneath as it was all along (before we forgot) and the spiritual change is not some entry of something new as much as the simplest shift of attention to that which is already there on the 7th day is was all good and God rested

hmm...yeah something else when we move to a new stage of development (a vertical step) we must stop at each stage and find a way to translate it before we move on (a horizontal rest) when we dont stop...we may move anyway, but we leave a shadow on that step (i.e....we have an "evil spirit") one of the easiest examples i can think of is when children are forced to move through the first stage without translating it such as in occasions of child abuse that child then has a "shadow" in their earlier stages of development which seems like an outside entity simply because it was never owned and made into a part of one's self that is when descending agape-type spirituality is important because we are no longer trying to get someone to evolve to some higher heaven but rather going back with them into the hell of their lower woundedness and unravelling the tangles by shedding light on where there was darkness

the basics TWI never knew in the first place... all the world's spiritual traditions were born of the need to deal with our mortal experience regardless of what happened on the surface...all of them had saints and wise folk who eventually came to the same sorts of conclusions and that is that in order to die well..one must practice dying throughout their life...right now and always what this looked like is basically increasingly terrifying to the modern mainstream religious and rational minds because it basically meant practicing being still, shutting up and spending a lot of time in silence in order to understand the nature of the field of where we are all ultimately going those who practiced were able to basically help other's in their time of suffering..because they were no longer flinching at death with their own egos and so underneath ALL the traditions were the ones who practiced dying in order to help others die well this is the way of abraham that Jesus saw was absent all the mythic language of the era points to this easily recognizable truth and from time to time, people from many different traditions would get together and realize that this was mutually true and so the xenophobic issues began to be resolved quite easily the wars of religious thought are pretty much over once this is realized the various races could speak to each other and compare notes about how to be a practicing servant to those who were dying they all agreed that in order to do so..one must practice dying...which was meditation...contemplation...etc... which is an actual spiritual practice that is well documented in many traditions all over the world for thousands of years "the mind of Christ" = that state of being that exists beyond mortal life which is basically empty, clear, invisible and radically free to "put on the mind of christ" was to sit down, shut up, close yer eyes and practice "playing dead" "the coming of the lord" = death this was the most effective and fertile way for one to basically stop being a religious pain in the arse for those who are suffering this has very little if nothing to do with the moral and theological arguments we are seeped in today we, as adults, must find a way to shed the way we give so much energy to mere mythical magical ways of reading scripture that have mostly no use at all execpt to engender strife "the way" had to do with devoting one's self in service to every living being that is also dying there is no partiality to this way of being not everyone is obligated to enter such a devotional way of being ... though everyone benefits from understanding it it is the "end of the road" for spiritual seekers...the point where seeking becomes child's play...simply for having a lesser purpose than serving those who are dying and no, not because one knows some intellectual truth...but because one can finally rest in the witness of thought itself (which is why it is described in the bible as being beyond thought) "the witness" = "abraham's rest" = that state of awareness that is eternally already with us and the way we have twisted the scriptures on all this is incrediblly off the charts causing more trouble in the world than anything i can think of most all of our modern civilizations are quite screwed in this regard...yet none alive chose such a misinformed position...we are pretty much innocent of it sorry for such a spastic response...its coming from my gut, mostly i hope you can understand, Sunesis it is evident to me now that twi negelected to teach us pretty much what all modern mainstream religion fails to teach us... mostly because they never knew in the first place and are most likely not interested in knowing due to a smorgasboard of unnatural and historic fears we have inherited culturally very sad time in the world feel free to let me know if it would for me to try and explain more

hey Roy...as much as this may not feel good to read for some..and may cause certain reactions i can hold my tongue around the topic no longer...and so truly sorry for the feathers i may ruffle but i would go as far as to say that whatever the advent of first century tongues was...was NOT what we were taught in PFAL/TWI and i say this as one who very much still loves to "speak in tongues" like we were taught in PFAL/TWI and very strongly believes there are/were valid and authentic benefits in our lives to do such a thing though i think it might be better to call it something like "singing with the mind and voice of an infant" ...which is truly great, healthy, important and all that...cuz we are actually exercising an actual part of the actual body and mind that has been in us since we were born.....and perhaps even a bit before that but this form of ecstatic prayer and language that was common in all cultures more than a millenia before the infamous pentecost ...during mankind's infantile stage of development (prior to even Abraham)... it is basically how we learned to speak in the first place as human beings i would consider this the FIRST angel's tongue ...when children learn to cry and make noise for being hungry and/or uncomfortable and such this tongue is as red as adam...just barely a notch above critterdom its how baby birds learn to peep for worms and sing at the sunrise and its no wonder to me how so many in our modern mainstream culture would get something out of this way of speaking in tongues given that we are so disconnected from our earliest human roots as to be almost completely alien to it and would mistake it for some sort of new advancement in thought and practice... simply for being new to our experience (new...by way of amnesia) yep...we are gonna get some nourishment out of what i would consider a "descending move to speak in the tongue of the first angel" cuz its has been so so many years since we knew that very early place when we first came from the blood red earth and clay ... when thinking of how you have presented it here, Roy...i cant help but think of this thread: how might we play at ways of being angels... because it seems ever clearer to me that the great occasion that marked a new way of being among those radical spiritual students we are all so fond of had more to do with INTERFAITH DIALOGUE and the capacity to discuss spirituality in terms of a SPECTRUM ... in terms of both color and sound ... why should it seem so strange that these radical spiritual students who were actually practicing opening their hearts to the most incredible states of compassion would learn to see truth as it actually exists beyond the racial language of their ancestory in ways that even recognized similar same truths and were recognizable as similar truths in languages from all over the world? how could one (in a pre-modern era) reach such a point of recognition (beyond language) unless they got beyond the racial limitations of their own tradition? what exactly was the sin that jesus freed his people from? did it have to do with the sin of a closed heart? an inherited position of simply being tribal? the kind of sin an entire race is also quite innocent of? and why would this move to being beyond a mere racial understanding of God save a people from their selves? is it crazy to think that they finally opened their eyes to the fact that the spirituality of Abraham (who was NOT a jew) had influenced traditions all over the world? and if the same incredible realizations of abraham were evident in all other traditions...certainly jesus recognized it as well (being such a good student of THE master) why must the sacred texts of our world almost always be limited to some magical mythical supernatural explanation of the extraordinary? ... and though i feel i do harp on this topic from time to time i must confess that this is coming from a place of suffering for me cuz its not easy to watch (and feel) the world's religions tear each other apart over the most absurd degrees of confusion of tongues and misapplications of sacred texts and other xenophobic madness that betrays the depth of our own judeo-christian lineages its not easy to watch people almost endlessly argue over the simplest misunderstandings sigh ug yep...we sure do need a new tongue ...yet again

i cant help but want to add that there a number of misunderstandings of these kind of notions - we dont want to be measured in any way. and so we wholesale reject all notions of developmental stages..especially in the contexts of spirituality or psychology. - we assume that any such measurement is the measurement of the whole person, rather than measurement of aspects. so we reject it. - we assume that any such measurement is the same ole hierarchical BS of our cultic past, or darker shades of religous history. so we reject it. - we assume that interior things cannot possibly be measured, observed, studied, practiced. so we reject it. - we assume that the bible has no such scales of measurement. so we reject it - we assume that since other religious texts have other such ways of measuring, it cant be safe. so we reject it. - we agree that there are such stages...but we reject all maps and models except our very favorite one - we agree that there is measurement...though we really dont like it if we are not at the very top...or very close to the top of the spectrum. so we reject it. - we dont realize what an amazing blessing it is to find one's self (or society) at some middle point (such as in a democracy)...so we reject it. - we agree that we are on the second step of development...but only if the ladder has 2 steps. so we accept the very short ladder - we agree that we are on the third step of development...but only if the ladder has 3 steps. so we accept a slightly longer ruler - in some ways...the move from one stage to another is too much like dying for us to bear...which we cannot do by ourselves..so we reject it. - other stuff but i cant help but want to say that if we dont start looking at these distinctions with compassion ... we are only gonna get deeper and deeper into our inhumanity towards each other mostly because we will remain confused as to why people see reality so radically different. and so will act and react from a state of some degree of confusion. which is not good for us. it seems to seem. at least

a very short list of related wikipedia articles for those interested Maslow's hierarchy of needs Stages of faith development Spiral Dynamics Structures of Consciousness also, a notion that helps me stay grounded...is that these are merely maps.. and there are plenty of maps throughout human history to compare and while it is important to notice where the maps overlap... its as important to notice where they do not and while some maps cover collective waves of development others specialize in individual waves and while some specialize in behavior some specialize in interior perspectives and while all maps often seem somehow abused by the confused we cant really blame a map for that as always...i suggest a balanced blend of precision, compassion and curiosity when navigating ...or "power, love and a sound mind"...to speak the same kinda thing in "another tongue" ;)

yeah...i think this is just an extension of that victory attitude, which ran much deeper under the surface of all our stated missions and explicit practices as if the overall problems of our civilization was condensed into its own mythic tribal sub-sub-sub-CULTure where failure and weakness was seen as sin and moral inferiority and something that threatens the "spiritual" survival of tribe horrificly strange how a group with a more-or-less anti-evolutionary stance could encourage such reptilian practices as "weeding out culls" ...to add...it also seems as if this victory-only attitude has any levels to it...so it comes across in a variety of ways that may seem dissimilar the way a cult does it may be different than the way harvard university may do it...for example ok...done editing... and apologies if im being too

i think that perhaps one of the deepest scars TWI leaves on children is something that is shared by most modern religious thought and practice and that is this wholesale addiction to success, accomplishment, victory, winning, etc... when young boys are not allowed to fail and deal with loss in life they grow up to be victory minded men who simply cannot stand losing they become simply unable to admit failure or ask for forgiveness and change their ways about anything because they are still on that childhood quest for self-made perfection and self-made immortality and this is a grave problem in the world today that fuels greed, revenge, pride, etc... we see this addiction to victory in our business, politics, relationships, medicine, academics, religion...you name it it is pretty much off the charts and taking our civilization right off a cliff most every culture and tradition throughout human history has seen the value of teaching young boys to live with our mortality so that they grow up to be good men who know how to live and die with grace and grow up to be wise and loving elders but for the first time in history, it seems, we have millions of adults who were not taught this as children and this attitude dominates our cultural values and in sewn into most all of our systems but lacking an effective rite of passage in mainstream cultural attitude, us human spiritual animals will find a way to do something about it anyway... be it thru self mutilation, drugs and sex and partying and violence ...you name it teenage suicide (and other self-destructive behavior) is not as common to human history as it is now of course, many adults blame the kids for such things..or blame the parents (who were once also kids that were not taught to fail) so...i guess what im saying is that this is much much wider problem than twi though twi seemed to excel at it...a real pioneer in this type of insanity, ya know? :(

if i may offer a few thoughts... i dont think that Dr. WW has gone off the deep end of PFAL gobbledygook, per se... but rather...has entered some deep waters, and mostly only has PFAL as a way to explain his experience of those waters another way of saying it, perhaps...is that one can genuinely experience a higher/deeper state of mind (as it seems Dr WW has and does) but is more or less limited to one's established stage of awareness ("standing") to explain it (to others and/or one's self) and as some may know/believe/understand whatever...that "jacob's ladder" has many such rungs (and not just two or three) ...one of which very strongly favors a specific language set over all others (such as the Bible ala PFAL and/or mere english and such) btw...welcome to the gsc, Dr. WW i am enjoying trying to decipher your explanations of the law of liberty i think you have a lot to say about it that is worthwhile...though it seems it may take a bit of patience on your part and others to relate +ODD

hi likeaneagle...i just answered you (or attempted to) on this thread

from another thread... hi likeaneagle no, i do not have a degree, nor am i pursuing one. i am in an apprenticeship for personal reasons, practicing in a wide range of disciplines, mostly around what one might call "end-of-life spirituality" though i must also say that my opinions are informed by much more than this apprenticeship alone and while i'm not entirely sure if people actually expect me to know any such answers, it seems as if my perspectives on such matters is interesting enough to give it a shot thanks for asking ...Todd .... Eyesopen asked.... i still cant say it as they do in the country...an Irish friend of mine heard some of us trying to say it and didnt know what the heck we were trying to say, or that it was even supposed to be gaelic ...but the word is spelled "Bas Sona"... and from what i recall, is pronounced kinda like "boss-HONE-a" (with a lot of other interesting breathy things going on in the mouth) and is a semi-common greeting that means "may you have a happy death" i'm still figurin that maybe my irish ancestory will help me say it right someday ;)

well...i wanna thank everyone for showing up ...and for your kindness and curiosity...and so many good questions and of course its gonna be light form of torture for me to listen to my own voice on the playback...it'll be good for me, i'm sure but....and...too ... if anyone is interested, i would like to do it again some time in the near future meanwhile...feeling like i could hang out and write some posts again for awhile :B)

just a quick word to say hello to Shifra...sure is good to see you again so renewed and i must say that i have been following this thread and have started to draft a response like 10 times...but cant seem to bring myself to commit to anything in writing on the topic...such is the curse of me lately but ... and ... so ... i want to point out this thread ... on the off chance you might be able to join us meanwhile ... and otherwise ... would love to chat with you live again sometime ... i have too much to say about agape that has not been said ... tho sadly my writing fingers seem to fail me peace, +ODD

well...this should turn out to be a fun experiment...thanks Paw strange as it may sound...i am finding it more and more difficult to participate in written conversations (though i love to read them) ... yet finding it easier and easier to engage in live spoken discourse a few topics i am passionate about and am wide open to discuss with whomever... - the spirituality of aging and dying...my current studies delve heavily into this...in theory, in practice and historically - spirituality, sexuality and love (especially agape...i have been following Shifra's very interesting thread on the topic, and have started a few threads of my own on the topic in years past) - the spirituality of virtual technology and cyber community...i am also doing practicum work in this arena on a number of fronts ... and am incredibly fond of the GSC - arts and creativity .... feel free to check out www.toddguess.com to get a peek at some of my fine art - interreligious dialogue and cooperation ... appreciating where the maps overlap and where they do not - my experience in TWI and post-TWi as it relates to any of the above and while i can jabber on for hours about these things quite easily ... i do prefer to let Paw and guests guide the conversation via whatever curious modes of inquiry may arise btw...i am no expert on anything except my own experience...nor do i have any degrees of worth...but i do love the process of mutual discovery and being surprised ...i am mostly just an artist and a pupil of life "see" you tomorrow space and grace...+ODD

to clarify my biblical perspective on it... yep...the jewish kid was radical...and the bible is mostly a jewish book and his way was not merely his way...though it was fully his way but a perennial way that has existed from the beginning with discernable voices in all corners of our world where the bible is more informative when viewed as mostly being a jewish "book of the dead" and allowed to be compared to the other "books of the dead" it has always been appropriate to forgive the pre-modern ways in which we came to these conclusions as well as forgive how many ways we have become oblivious to them in our post-modern funk we are mostly unhinged...as it were... from the actual pre-modern conditions and experiences that gave birth to our bibles and sacred art and literature and traditions ... strangely...i find that blaming helps forgive blame the person who wrong whomever then blame what caused them to do it then blame what caused that then blame what caused that yada yada and then when i get to the bottom of things at the face of the deep i find it easy to blame the face of the deep for allowing it all to happen in the first place then what? i am sure this radical wide open space we find our selves in will easily forgive such a thing of us damn we are so so back at genesis again again again

it seems clear to me that all our issues of forgiveness only get more important and more pronounced as we near the end of our lives whatever work we havent done around forgiveness is going to get hotter and heavier as we near "the end times" which is perhaps why it is such a damnable act to commit a crime against someone that is beyond one's own means to do that work to forgive there is a part of what we dont work out before we go that surely lingers on the living which has a devastating effect on the living...giving them even more to work out when they reach the end of their life such as when a child and a parent doesn't work through their crimes against each other before the parent dies ...the child is almost always still working it out when they are themselves dying...only it has often been amplifed sadly...entire waves of culture have been carrying many many generations of unforgiven crimes large swathes of society are up to our eyeballs in blood red grief and unforgivability with multi-generational legacies of revenge and hate embedded in our stories and theologies the world is soaking wet with it as well as the very costly distractions ... but its all gonna wanna come up in the end...individually, as well as collectively which is why many wise folks suggest we start working on it at the middle of our lives ...or even better...in our youth so that we dont have so much homework to do at once ...in our 11th hour where what we still carry is sitting there like a smoldering lump ...a grain of sand clogging our way like a mountain people talk about how it is written about "God's terrifying judgement and lake of fire at the end of days"... i say it has a lot more to do with the end of days in very very practical living ways that are much more closer to home i cant help but notice that jesus was very specifically passionate about preparing people to die well ...and the implications of that ... truly sorry for how this will surely seem quite wrong to some ...most our modern mainstream theologies and cultures simply seem to lack the skill to touch this sort of thing without having to go to some sort of specialist which is why we keep coming back to it...more and more and this is my lamentation ... Here is reader's guide for "The Four Things That matter Most" by Dr Ira Byock ...a nice example of the doctrine and practice of forgiveness in a postmodern, interfaith, inter-religious, interdisciplinary context

interesting grateful this came up tho it seems as tho whenever i go this direction around here it comes off like a fart in church so please forgive if i come off like someone who is vomiting cuz i am my opinions on this topic and period of history has become like a cat trying to hack up a very painful hairball as it pertains to both science and medicine and religion and just about every other friggin important thing it seems its like this big wide historic dent in our skulls that has us living largely in very small fragments ack that may be how the inquisitors have told the story but starting in about 1000 ad, there was a period of about 500 years where jews, catholics, muslims and others practiced medicine together hospital and hospice and hospitality were the common thread they all found they built sanctuaries like palaces for people to die well in bringing the arts of dying together from all over the world yep...large groups of these children of abraham came together and used to psalms the way they were meant be used as they discovered and developed a common ground between spirituallity and medicine they found an authentic reason for interfaith dialogue in europe's first hospital system no, this was not grounded in theology though it was free to explore it without getting delusional and nor was it grounded in reason though it was abundant for a much wider array of things it was grounded in silence, stillness, and a deep practical respect for our mortal state of affairs in ways where even our modern hospice movement has not yet duplicated ...tho i must say that i have a lot of hope that we will..and are but those were the millions of people and books that were burned yep...rabbis and catholics and druids and muslims all writing on the same pages ...nurses monks and nuns taking notes in the margins on end of life realities ...slaughtered and erased and meant to be forgotten wtf? ya know? and we have still not recovered...perhaps because we are still mostly oblivious to why it happened, how it happened, or that it happened... ...at least in ways that inform the decisions we make now science and medicine and religion and culture have been sliding away from a healthy relationship with dying ever since in ways that perhaps feed the world's worst problems (greed, revenge, illness, and all the various delusions and distractions and oblivions we seem to find so easily these days, etc...) gratefully, as least, i dont think there is a person alive to blame for this worsening condition we find ourselves in ...we were all born in this sort of deep doo doo sigh ug

ok...a few thoughts to unpack it more... if we are a conglomeration of developing lines and our faith is only one of these lines ...our faith is not the sum of us one's stage of faith does not define them as a whole human being but each line does develop through it own range of degrees and can be seen for what they are each sprout in this bush of sprouting lines is growing along a path of many degrees and so this whole tree has a path of all the paths that can also have a certain overall kind and style and our path is our path is our path...we each have no other the textures and contours and possible cartographies of all that we are becoming is knowable and measurable in all its many varying lines and degrees from many different perspectives simply because it exists and yeah...our magic sense of self, being our firstborn sense of self most naturally becomes our deepest widest grandest canyon of self as we age although ...if a child is kept from having faith in magic he may not understand the value of wishful thinking as an adult and so his rational thought is not as effective or useful or...if one stays grounded in their faith in magic long past childhood they may still find themselves relying primarily on things like "the law of believing" or "The Secret" even if they are in charge of governments and armies when we move beyond magic...we can still exercise our sense of wishful thinking (or not) and when we move beyond myth...we can still exercise our sense of friendliness (or not)...and wishful thinking (or not) and when we move beyond reason...we can still exercise our sense of critical thinking (or not) ...and friendliness (or not) ...and wishful thinking (or not) when we move beyond compassion...we can still exercise our sense of equality (or not) ...and critical thinking (or not) ...and friendliness (or not) ...and wishful thinking (or not) what we want to try to help heal in our selves and each other is find out how we may have moved beyond previous stages of faith WITHOUT carrying those earlier senses of faith forward again...any words i choose to even begin to describe such things is but a splash and a smear of a representation of possibilities

yeah...that was quite cool so many possibilities initial reflections... nice to hear our laughter and i think that not knowing who all is listening is somewhat of a concern ...as it will likeley make it harder for many to share as much as they would like or need but i do sure see a role for storytelling and "story catching" around here ...even selfishly...id love to hear them told which is something we have already always been doing around here hypertextually and such and a huge part of what heals us about this place but this gizmo really seems to shift things into different gears i mean, who wouldnt want to actually hear Johnny Lingo actually tell us all about the Eagle? ya know?