sirguessalot

the entire universe is the God-breathed "Word of God" ... which includes every book ever written ... including PFAL, and MAD magazine ... as well as every non-book that's what so many of saints and sages of old were sayin ... which is the same as sayin nothin by sayin a whole lot "all of it" "all of it" "yep...all of it" ...just sayin :mellow:

a book of wisdom: The Four Things That Matter Most ...i think that maybe even the excerpt page might help. And the rest of the website is rich, too...such as the reader's guide page. in addition ...its also ok to be silent at times like this, which helps us listen creatively...not only to others, but more deeply to our self...and so that we can asking honest questions about what is going on inside another. Not loaded questions that we think we know the answer to, but open honest questions that help others find out why they said what they said in the first place. This takes practice, of course. Sometimes a profound question that is not even immediately answered outloud can be a catalyst for change that hours of noise can never touch. Its often worth the wait. peace be with you and yours, Nero

being silly...kinda... From this article... reminds me of Job's whirlwind...and of that great empty nest and brooding momma at the beginning of Genesis 1...and how its written that "God has no form"...and how Spirit is invisible...creates light and darkness....and how it is WITHIN God that WE live and move and have our being there is something about stillness and silence that causes motion and noise...eternally

my goodness, this thread is golden...goes to show, how like in my end-of-life studies, there is a notion that we can trust our own experience in such times...and that our intuition regarding such times of transition are intact after all these millenia. now for some understatements of the century... i cant help but offer this...and someone correct me if this is out of place...but as ive been trying to say around here for some time...that while every stage of life is a sort of "small death," the "art of dying" IS the true and practical historic source and common ground of ALL religions. The Bible CANNOT be understood OR applied anywhere near the depths possible without realizing this very very vital context. Moreso than any dogmatic wrestling...the need and desire to die well WAS, IS and WILL BE the most valid context for religion in every millenia. Hospice and grief related work is the most essential and useful role for ALL religious thought, and at the root of any calling to be a minister. And its not hard to see what happens to a religious group (like TWI) that somehow denies or rejects this kind of treatment. All our bad religious examples of history and present are the result of this grave mistake...the doctrinal "deal-breaker." This includes the neglected role of aging becoming elders...and how the generations are split from each other moreso than ever. My daily prayer is that every denomination and facet of Christianity wakes up and rereads its Bibles with these kinds of things in mind, and maybe begins to restore the very living usefulness to religious history and the name of Christ. I'll stop there. in grace and grit... Todd

my prayers are with you and yours, Nero for what it may be worth, here are some FAQs on communicating with people in comas, and other altered states, on the website of my friends, Ann and Stan, who have been working in these fields for a long long time.

I have a feeling some of you guys might get something outta this video....Notice the two lines spiralling and climbing like the caduceus around the "chakras", opening each of them up...warning: some may want to turn your volume down...its an animated sequence for a very hard industrial rock band

pasted from another thread...cuz it seems to fit better here my attempt at a complete summary of a picture ive been painting around here regarding my view of discerning of spirits... - being human is already always a body/soul/spirit manifestation of a "staff" and "spectrum" of discernable frequencies ("chakras" + many other names in world's spiritual traditions and literature). - the contents of our whole "staff" is also a unique manifestation of a specific discernable "personality type," based on our entry point on a matrix of 9 "orienting coordinates" - there are 9+ discernable interwoven "branches" (maybe think "lines of intelligence") that develop from that entry point, and up through the scaffolding of this whole "staff" we were born with...which is how we start discovering the nature of this "staff" that we already always are - each of these "branches" develops (and gets lost) along a spectrum in their own ways, giving us plenty of discernable variables, values and textures, allowing a kind of "cartography of the spirit of our self" - the average stages of development of all our "branches" generates a discernable overall personal "center of gravity," even though we also have branches that have developed above or below the gravity of this main knot - society and culture are collective gatherings of such radically detailed individuals and their centers of gravity...generating cultural "waves" and "fields" with their own discernable overall centers of gravity (the collective average of all the individual averages) - the dynamics of how different cultural and individual centers of gravity interact with each other are discernable, not only in present day, but in historical records, as well as in forecasting the future - the capacity to at least speak in terms of a spectrum of frequencies and development is necessary for spiritual discernment...maybe think of speaking in "tongues" as speaking (and thinking) in terms of "waves" or "wavelengths"...a very practical way to apply such discernments is by being able to communicate what is discerned. - And maybe think of "spirit" as "the spirit of a thing" ...or "quality and quantity of a thing" ...or "attitudes and altitudes" of a thing ...or "composition and contours" of a thing. And maybe think of "discernment" as "measurement"...which involves all our lines of intelligence, including intuition. - all of which is very different from what i learned and believed from pfal...in how pfal taught that spirit is basically an IT that we GET, which equals "getting born again," which gives us 9 supernatural powers, and the power to "discern spirits" basically only allows us to discern good types of supernatural entities, bad types of supernatural entities, good spiritual "seeds" in people, and bad spiritual "seeds" in people.

well...i'm guessing you probably werent expecting this kinda thing when you started this thread, cinderpelt so ...as an attempt to complete a summary of a picture ive been painting around here regarding my view of discerning of spirits...maybe read slow...its intentionally dense (i also posted it here in case anyone wants to take it to da "donjon") - being human is already always a body/soul/spirit manifestation of a "staff" and "spectrum" of discernable frequencies ("chakras" + many other names in world's spiritual traditions and literature). - the contents of our whole "staff" is also a unique manifestation of a specific discernable "personality type," based on our entry point on a matrix of 9 "orienting coordinates" - there are 9+ discernable interwoven "branches" (maybe think "lines of intelligence") that develop from that entry point, and up through the scaffolding of this whole "staff" we were born with...which is how we start discovering the nature of this "staff" that we already always are - each of these "branches" develops (and gets lost) along a spectrum in their own ways, giving us plenty of discernable variables, values and textures, allowing a kind of "cartography of the spirit of our self" - the average stages of development of all our "branches" generates a discernable overall personal "center of gravity," even though we also have branches that have developed above or below the gravity of this main knot - society and culture are collective gatherings of such radically detailed individuals and their centers of gravity...generating cultural "waves" and "fields" with their own discernable overall centers of gravity (the collective average of all the individual averages) - the dynamics of how different cultural and individual centers of gravity interact with each other are discernable, not only in present day, but in historical records, as well as in forecasting the future - the capacity to at least speak in terms of a spectrum of frequencies and development is necessary for spiritual discernment...maybe think of speaking in "tongues" as speaking (and thinking) in terms of "waves" or "wavelengths"...a very practical way to apply such discernments is by being able to communicate what is discerned. - And maybe think of "spirit" as "the spirit of a thing" ...or "quality and quantity of a thing" ...or "attitudes and altitudes" of a thing ...or "composition and contours" of a thing. And maybe think of "discernment" as "measurement"...which involves all our lines of intelligence, including intuition. - all of which is very different from what i learned and believed from pfal...in how pfal taught that spirit is basically an IT that we GET, which equals "getting born again," which gives us 9 supernatural powers, and the power to "discern spirits" basically only allows us to discern good types of supernatural entities, bad types of supernatural entities, good spiritual "seeds" in people, and bad spiritual "seeds" in people.

hehe...funny

a lot of types of thinking i do now didn't even exist 30 and 40 years ago, Mike though i have no problem with including the partial truths of 30 or 40 years ago (or 300 or 400 years ago...or 3000 or 4000 years ago) ...as partial truths with a gamut of natural limitations and yeah...i know quite a few zen/quantum enthusiasts who disagree at the risk of you answering...what is the point of mentioning it?

ya know..something i never even mentioned that is probably as important as a vertical "chakra" notion of spiritual discernment, is a horizontal typology for spiritual discernment. this is about the sacred psychology of personality types, which is perhaps more judeo-christian than the "chakra" notions anyway Here is something i posted about it a while back basically, it says that we are made up of 9 manifestations of the face of God 3 gut types, 3 heart types, and 3 head types and we are each a 9-branched tree within but ONE of these types is our primary type, simply for being the first closest point we entered the world through even though there are as many ways of expressing each type as there are people in each type so this ONE type is simultaeneously our gift and curse...being the longest line, casting the longest shadow and is based on decisions we made in our first years of life yet all the other "types" of expressions live in us too when looking into the enneagram, our type is typically the one we like the least ..the one that bothers us the most...(with the exception of one type..which doesnt mind) methinks VPW ripped off the enneagram, too and severely watered it down which makes it hard to hear for exway...cuz so many things he said were ripped...its hard to hear them again in a different older context and take seriously anyway, how discernment works in these schools is in the deep arts of friendship...which involves a lifelong relationship with someone who listens and mirrors back to you (someone YOU choose) and helps discern what type you are, and how it effects your life, and how you relate to other types, etc... (though in these traditions..WE are the ultimate authority on what type we think/feel we are) and soul-friend helps prescribe/suggest specific spiritual practices you might engage in to help start the lifelong journey of becoming "real" and "whole," by integrating all 9 types it was also rooted in contemplative tradtions...meaning that it was the speciality of monks and nuns and those who were devoted in the ways of silence, compassion, inquiry, and deep deep listening this type of role of "lay confessor" in the enneagram traditions predates the catholic confession booths, and has ties in celtic arts of dying, too as well as islamic sufi traditions and others this is quite a rabbit hole of a topic, too being loose here...but what you've described about your friend, potato, sounds like an expression of one of the personality types..one whose gift and curse is a heart that feels what others are feeling, and is stuck in being deceptive in order to impress. Without someone that we trust to mirror for us, we usually cant see the downfall of our type at all. this puts a whole different twist on 9 manifestations as we were taught in pfal where they are not special abilities given to born agains but something every human being already always has within and "being born again" is simply the act of waking up to such interior awareness the "day of the lord" is always at hand, in this regard where the "twinkling of an eye" is really just the simplest shift of attention and to "repent" is to turn one's perspective completely around from "outer darkness"...to inner light... where that "everburning bush" is that "tree of life" within and the 9 manifestations (as i described above) are the "voices of angels" that we hear

thanks for the thoughtful response, potato well, as all with of us, this guy IS a real person, regardless of his condition. but i can assume you know this, too...and by "real person," you meant something else. which is ok with me. English is kinda grubby these days, anyway. i think it helps to remember how chakra-type maps can be oversimplified, too…and can represent physical and/or psychological aspects of the self. They can represent actual organs and groups of organs, and/or our subjective views of aspects of those organs and our self in relationship to our world. Two sides of the same coin, even though a lot of us pick one and reject the other as irrelevant. Cuz yes, our "mind" is more than merely a "brain," and our "mind" exists throughout our entire body, and includes that part of us that experiences the mind. (see my thoughts in doctrinal if interested). But i'm no expert or specialist in either, i am mostly just a poet and artist...so this is nowhere near an informed or qualified diagnosis, but i might start looking for a psychological hang-up in the region of the throat...where communication happens. And working the "knots" out may involve skilled self-inquiry into deeper motives for lying and such, and in ways that involve an intentional increase in honest dialogue with others. So it will likely have to be a journey that involves caring, competent friends and community. And of course, a will to participate on the part of this person. In other words…if so, its likely not a diet issue, or something surgery or RX will fix, or something a change of scenery will fix, or a new job, or something that can be beat out of them, or exorcized, etc… (though any of these may augment healing) And its not that we will be always be able to see some physical evidence of a “chakra” being opened, or cleaned, or tightened (if it was too loose)…but using the map of them as a narrative helps locate where to start an inquiry. And as every “spirit” is interconnected with the rest of the whole self of “chakras”… issues anywhere reverberate throughout the entire self structure…and can even be obscured by its relationships to the rest. For example: if I am being a pathological liar, it may affect my health and my relationships, as well as my ability to forgive, or eat well. Or…it may be that my lying is secondary, and is actually being caused by my deeper inability to forgive. Or it may stem from a fear and control issue from lower down in the gut. Or it may even be coming from way down lower, and may involve things that happened during gestation or birth. Discernment involves inquiry, intuition, patience, knowledge, plus... In any case...if such a person is really healed of such a core issue in their later adult life...their life may change so radically that they are not recognizable to those who got used to them as they were, and maybe not even accepted for having changed too much, even if the change is for the better. This does not support the healing, of course. Such rejection of healing possibilities may even keep one from getting healed. Also…sometimes the darkest conditions so utterly break us, where if we don’t simply die from it, we arise like a phoenix from the ashes without competent help at all …and surprise everyone. Such radical grace is well known in spiritual literatures and experience. And, of course, there are no guarantees for healing everything in life anyway, and most do take their deepest problems to the grave, lacking competent environment of support and resources. Spiritual healing in those final stages involves more of a radical acceptance of one’s mortal condition regardless of the outcome (and on the part of relatives and friends of the dying, as well). It’s often the only kinds of healing possible in the end. This is perhaps the very ground of all spiritual healing that we should engage in prior to this point anyway....that radical acceptance and simply noticing of what is. "I AM" is often described as the role of the highest "chakra"...that "rainbow nimbus and crown of Christ," etc... Of course, we do need simple ways to navigate the complexity without outright rejecting the nature of complexity. i do so by carrying a trinity of principles in my pocket…precision, compassion, and curiosity…which, to me, are the equiv of “power, love and a sound mind.” And all three at once…always…or each one is its own problem all alone. all grace, Todd

Mike...yer right. I do often suggest deeper than tradition kinds of inquiry but i also suggest exploring the depth of the world's great traditions cuz relatively few in our culture really ever have yet go on making inflated faith claims anyway and dismissing things never even looked into while claiming to understand them all ...and i hafta include you in this and i must say...that those fields and theories you mention are merely objective and inter-objective lines of inquiry ...not subjective or inter-subjective modes, where Spirit has traditionally been found by the saints and sages of old but i'll stop there about that..cuz the "spiritual wilderness" is increasingly complicated, if nothing else and that is a natural enough of a reason for many to stop and oversimplify especially in our age of very challenging hyper-evolving complications and unprecedented access to global historical information and given the influence that PFAL/TWI/VPW/LCM doctrines have had on all of us, as well as other factors (such as the post-modern pluralism i mention here and there) i can assume that i am mostly being considered as either arrogant, delusional, boring, and/or influenced by devil spirits for writing such things but i also trust that we will all do our own sifting and winnowing and i can certainly appreciate and agree with what i sense is a strong desire for practical spiritual applications though i dont think this can be found if we also prematurely reject most all spiritual doctrines and theories as being unsound

hi Mike help me out here...can you please show me where i've suggested Artificial Intelligence, Quantum Mechanics, Godel/Cantor Mathematics, or Brain Anatomy? as for the rest of your post...it's not hard to get what yer trying to say...i just can't help but wonder if/when you might go off by yourself into the woods for 40 days and nights without food ...kiddin...kinda but seriously, i can hardly count how many misplaced assumptions and sideways implications you seem to make about my perspective in your post which is fine with me...i just figure you might find it helpful to know that it very much seems that way to me

to add...cuz i never did clarify my thoughts on the practical side... imo, the general practical application of "discerning of spirits" looks like: - the discerner's dedication to a life of personal spiritual introspection into THEIR OWN inner spiritual weave (this would require knowledge of some sort of contemplative practice) - getting beyond magic and mythic christian thinking and other inflated faith claims (this would require a radical shift in worldviews for many) - engaging in quality inquiry and mutual conversation with the "discernee" (there are plenty of arts and forms of such friendly inquiry...i suggest quaker forms for protestants) - ordinary activities that correspond to helping whatever "spirit is bedeviling them." (this includes psychologies, therapies, contemplative prayer, exercise, diet, reading, etc...) i pray that more christians snap out of this mythical funk that has basically cut us off from an authentic spiritual life its as if most have traded the richness within the judeo-christian history for industrial-strength cliches and other quick fixes and while there may be evil critters and fragments of psychic stuff lingering here and there...i think we take the evil minion metaphor way too far into the context of "spiritual discernment"

though it may be hard for some i suggest looking into the notions of "chakras" without falling into the new age mumbo jumbo and moving away from notions of evil entities flitting around basically within the human self is a spectrum of "centers"..."gatherings" corresponding to various functions (food, sex, control, compassion, communication, vision, etc...) all of these are "good spirits" and function as a whole but "bedevil us" when one gets knots on it which keeps the whole from working together and so its like a single "spirit" possesses us and we become a flute that can only play a single note or a paint brush that only allows one color "discerning spirits" is another way of distinguishing the core centers of the whole being and how it may be affecting our physical, mental and emotional self the only reason a spirit of God is evil...is because it has a kink in it and is out of place..or overemphasized we dont cast an evil entity out of us but we comb out the knots so that things are flowing again thus, the "evil spirit" is cast out...but not literally we find that we have a food issue or a relationship issue or a forgiveness issue etc... and while this may be associated with new age stuff or with india and hindu but it has its roots in abraham and ancient jewish thought ...and Jesus was a good jew, if nothing else maybe read the book of Rev and replace "churches" with "chakras"

in the fields of ego development and such its quite perfectly natural for one who has left a mythic stage to get "a hit" out of pointing out the flaws of a mythic stage the mythic stage has A LOT of flaws which also points to the limits of rational stage, and illustrates the next lesson to be learned by the rational stage which then brings us to the pluralist stage...where the "everyone has got their own unique valid point of view" is taken quite seriously thank God that is not the last stage, either in fact...thank God there seems to be no final stage jacob's ladder just keeps going and going and going heaven gets higher and higher and hell gets deeper and deeper ... and yeah...i have heard of Joyce Meyers...and have spent a little time looking into her ministeries and i think if she were also able and willing to talk WITH non-Christian leaders about God i would put her in the category of being Christlike

amen amen to all but DWBH's last paragraph, in general because history is full of practices to start preparing for "it" as early as the age of 30 to add... i am truly sorry if this post comes across too blunt for anyone or too loose and written poorly perhaps envision me softly weeping as i write this...as i often do as i consider this to be the topic of utmost concern to all of us in my studies and experiences in end-of-life care and hospice history it is becoming ever clearer to me that the most common ground of most all religious traditions sprang from "the art of dying" which includes the various transitions during life (birth, rites of passage, eldering, etc..) those who practiced "dying before they died" were doing so in order to help "midwife" others in that transition by devoting oneself to the interior life of a contemplative ... this was the actual practice of all our bible heroes for the purpose of becoming the ones who helped hold space for dying ..those truly weightier matters and other types of healing when physical healing is not possible measured in terms of things like meaning, forgiveness, relatedness, hope (things that typically do not show up on hospital charts, sadly) most all modern mainstream religion (especially groups like TWI...as DBWH hit so well) makes the same mistakes as modern mainstream science in this regard in that they do not realize how soaking wet we are in a global denial of death that has been going on for more than a century and are seeped in ignorance and avoidance of large swaths of religious history and are basically UNABLE to discern the practical deeper meanings or applications of ANY world's scirptures so they use scriptures for a wide variety of things they were never meant to be used for causing no end to misunderstanding and confusion and suffering and naive war and prejudice "bas sona" is a gaelic greeting for "may you have a happy death" such the kind when we are wide awake, pain free, ready inside, and surrounded music we love, and by loved ones who are also ready (as they can be) in heart and mind ...such cannot (and should not) be forced or faked and "the dying are our greatest spiritual teachers" is another maxim that keeps us humble and wise and receptive to deeper insights "the wounded healer" is a notion that all caregivers should learn, as well in how the dying person may be the one who offers insight into their own healing process..even if they still die or how the psalms were prescribed as medicine (to be sung by healers and the dying) for healing spiritual pain by christians, jews and muslims (together) by recognizing the spectrum of music moods and how they effect our emotional and mental relationships with our bodies and community the process of dying takes years (if not our whole life), just as the process of grief takes years (if not our whole life) yet we want is over with and out of the way as soon as possible these days which basically only causes more suffering in all the unfinished business we dont get to stuff left undone when someone in our life dies always comes up again when we do and this causes more hell on earth...the likes of which i dont have to convince anyone here imo, the whole bible (OT and NT) can only be understood in the context of a "jewish book of dying" and if death is the last enemy to be destroyed its not because it magically goes away from the earth but because it ceases being our enemy because we have "died before we died" which is what Jesus taught and lived anyway...here are some useful links on the topic...with plenty of white rabbits to follow: Dying Well Denial of Death Crisis, Grief and Healing End of Life Books Coma Communication thanks a mil A La for starting this thread all grace, Todd

Belle...yeah, the busy wave is a fun one. By "fun," i am thinking of how a clown-filled car pulls off some reckless stunt that wrecks the car and scatters the clowns all broken and bashed...but they crack up laughing cuz they are still alive...and simply amazed at the stunt they just pulled off. something you wrote stuck out... In part, i think yer right. There are so many variables, is it impossible to get the ultimate view. One thing that helps...is to realize that all words and labels and charts and maps we create are NOT the same as the territory they are pointing to. "All men are liars" points to this notion. Languages we use are merely maps. They are not to be confused with that which they describe. This position frees us to make very detailed maps, and create languages. Even though not everyone realizes if we take this position with our own maps and languages. We can even use maps to transcend maps...such as by leaving "here be dragons" at the borders to remind ourselves that MYSTERY reigns. We are ultimately fools who don't know what we don't know...AND we can be smart about what we do. And we can make very good, detailed maps and languages. The fields of psychology, biology, linguistics, phenonemology, etc... are all full of maps maps maps and more maps. All the world's great spiritual traditions and literatures made maps ...(Book of Rev, Mandalas, Dante, Chain of Being, etc...) but religion quite often gets "trapped in a map" by getting attached to it just as science can get "trapped in corners of maps" What we need is a map/language that ties all maps together in a meaningful way. Specialists get lost in highly detailed but very small corners of maps. science often unscientifically rejects interior data. religion often unreligiously rejects exterior data. ... The map of perspectives i started this thread with helps a lot, i think. And addresses your point quite well. A map is a thing. 3rd person IT. Map making processes are things...4th person ITS. The 1st and 2nd person perspectives of the map makers can be mapped in a way, but the perspectives are ultimately located OFF the map. The moment I try and map my perspective, or our perspective...I create a map. Which puts it in a 3rd person IT again. I dont want to mistake the map of my interior for my interior. And i want to be free to burn the map and start over again. We are reminded in the jewish traditions that we are always at liberty to shatter a cracked pot and rethrow a new one from the shards. But how I experience realities is a non-thing ("the potter"). Our interior subjective perspective is described as leading to a "great clearing" and "invisible witness" and "unseen experiencer" of all that we map. In a sense..."I" and "we" is defined by boundaries that move as subject becomes object...over and over again. ... rambling on...

Bramble, I think this fits great with this thread. Your first paragraph seems to illustrate a focus on those 2nd person ("getting them to agree") and 3rd person ("and to act like I act") perspectives. Then your second paragraph seems to make a shift to a 4th person ("i put my energies towards circumstances") perspective...seeing the value of your role and impact in systems. And I know that what you wrote is a summary that leaves out much. My summary of your summary assumes so, and does the same (leaves out much). But I think its cool how we can all see, in general, how we make these bigger moves in life in light of how we shift our focus through specific perspectives. But not in how "perspectives" is often used to mean "one's own view," but in how 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th person perspectives and beyond ARE "one's own view." Thanks for the post. Todd

to add to the previous add...in case anyone is paying attention... i've been responding specifically to Suda's opening post...with gems like: "One bottom line may be our experiences and how we interpreted them." There is an important relationship between permanent stages of development and temporary states of experience, in how one can temporarily "peek" into much "higher" states at any stage of development, but the values of that "peek" can only be interpreted at whatever stage one is at. for (a very simple, loose) example... one who is at a magic stage experiences a profound state of higher soul they may wake up and say that Jesus himself personally visited them in a dream and granted them special powers one who is at a mythic stage experiences a profound state of higher soul they may wake up and say that Jesus sent a special message through them for the congregation about how special they all are one who is at a rational stage experiences a profound state of higher soul they may wake up and say that the brain is playing tricks on them...and it musta been something they ate one who is at a pluralistic stage experiences a profound state of higher soul they may wake up and say that Jesus is important to them and this was a dream with significant meaning one who is at a nondual stage experiences a profound state of higher soul they may wake up and say that Jesus personally visited them, and he has a special message, and they ate something strange, and Jesus means something special to them...plus my point is that anyone can have profound experiences along the entire spectrum of consciousness but can only interpret the values of that experience through the filter of where we "sit" ...that interpretation will also be re-interpreted as we change i also want to add that stages of development DO NOT describe one's entire being, but describes ONE aspect out of many aspects that are all developing so when i say that someone is "at a stage," i may be saying that one's "moral line" is at that stage, or one's "cognitive line" is at that stage, and that there are many other lines that also develop through stages for what its worth...

posted this on my war of the worldviews thread, too ... thinking of the atheist versus christian conversations going on here and elsewhere in the world today... i think that the "has morals" versus "does not have morals" kinds of questions are perfect examples of how utterly flattened the dialogue has become. for which i dont blame people, per se...but the mainstream language routines and habits of the day ...and their prisons of meaning because morality develops through multiple stages...not only in individual lives, but also in larger, slower cultural waves the only people who dont have morals are very young children, and children and adults in various states of arrested development and psychosis the morals/ethics/values of "christianities" and "atheisms" span the entire spectrum of development and to try and reduce either one to some simple single moral condition is like trying to label melting objects that are moving by on a conveyer belt what is almost always missing from the mainstream arguments of "atheism versus christianity" (and visa versa) these days, is an acknowledgement that both "I" and "we" are moving through stages of moral development not constantly, but more like: pause...leap....pause....leap...pause...leap and while the majority of mainstream Christianity lives at the mythic stage these days, (which seems natural considering that is was a mythic era in which the religion was founded on Jesus) and the majority of Atheism lives at the rational stage, (which seems natural considering that it was a rational era in which the "Enlightment" occured) "Christianity" also exists at every stage of moral development - magic...Christ is about my needs and wants - mythic...Christ is about my family's needs and wants - rational...Christ is about history and experts and reason - pluralistic...Christ is about collective individual freedoms for all - nondual and beyond...Christ is about dying, silence, stillness and experience that transcends language...saints, apostles, mother T, MLK, contemplatives, etc... Likewise, "Atheism" also exists as every stage of moral development - magic...Atheism is about my needs and wants - mythic...Atheism is about my family's needs and wants - rational...Atheism is about history and experts and reason - pluralistic...Atheism is about collective individual freedoms for all - nondual and beyond...Atheism is about dying, silence, stillness and experience that transcends language...Spinoza, Einstein, Arthur Young, etc... a real zinger is how each stage of moral development, while imperfect, provides essential moral lessons that are best carried with us into latter stages in other words... there is a good and enduring reason why children and humanity moves through a magic wave...we learn to value the self and a good and enduring reason why children and humanity moves through a mythic wave...we learn to value culture and a good and enduring reason why children and humanity moves through a rational wave...we learn to value truth and a good and enduring reason why children and humanity moves through a pluralistic wave...we learn to value truths etc... but its not until AFTER the pluralistic wave that we are able to value ALL previous waves like this which allows an even greater compassion than pluralism not just BIG heart ...but BIG heart + BIG mind

thinking of the atheist versus christian conversations going on here and elsewhere in the world today ... i think that the "has morals" versus "does not have morals" kinds of questions are perfect examples of how utterly flattened the dialogue has become. for which i dont blame people, per se...but the mainstream language routines and habits of the day ...and their prisons of meaning because morality develops through multiple stages...not only in individual lives, but also in larger, slower cultural waves the only people who dont have morals are very young children, and children and adults in various states of arrested development and psychosis the morals/ethics/values of "christianities" and "atheisms" span the entire spectrum of development and to try and reduce either one to some simple single moral condition is like trying to label melting objects that are moving by on a conveyer belt what is almost always missing from the mainstream arguments of "atheism versus christianity" (and visa versa) these days, is an acknowledgement that both "I" and "we" are moving through stages of moral development not constantly, but more like: pause...leap....pause....leap...pause...leap and while the majority of mainstream Christianity lives at the mythic stage these days, (which seems natural considering that is was a mythic era in which the religion was founded on Jesus) and the majority of Atheism lives at the rational stage, (which seems natural considering that it was a rational era in which the "Enlightment" occured) "Christianity" also exists at every stage of moral development - magic...Christ is about my needs and wants - mythic...Christ is about my family's needs and wants - rational...Christ is about history and experts and reason - pluralistic...Christ is about collective individual freedoms for all - nondual and beyond...Christ is about dying, silence, stillness and experience that transcends language...saints, apostles, mother T, MLK, contemplatives, etc... Likewise, "Atheism" also exists as every stage of moral development - magic...Atheism is about my needs and wants - mythic...Atheism is about my family's needs and wants - rational...Atheism is about history and experts and reason - pluralistic...Atheism is about collective individual freedoms for all - nondual and beyond...Atheism is about dying, silence, stillness and experience that transcends language...Spinoza, Einstein, Arthur Young, etc... a real zinger is how each stage of moral development, while imperfect, provides essential moral lessons that are best carried with us into latter stages in other words... there is a good and enduring reason why children and humanity moves through a magic wave...we learn to value the self and a good and enduring reason why children and humanity moves through a mythic wave...we learn to value culture and a good and enduring reason why children and humanity moves through a rational wave...we learn to value truth and a good and enduring reason why children and humanity moves through a pluralistic wave...we learn to value truths etc... but its not until AFTER the pluralistic wave that we are able to value ALL previous waves like this which allows an even greater compassion than pluralism not just BIG heart ...but BIG heart + BIG mind

a confession of my personal fantasies... imho, a minister worth their salt can and does address and engage and respond to the public that is OUTSIDE of their exclusive congregation of friendlies. not that varying degrees of private and exclusive meetings are wrong...just that there are other notes on the ole flute...and much bigger fields of love and attention such salty ministers will have the capacity, will and skill to engage in some form of dialogue (not sermon) with other denominations, religions, beliefs (and "non-beliefs"). not that there is anything wrong with it, but inviting people to private one-on-one conversations is nowhere near the same kinda thing. a wild suggestion: start with a 2-hour podcast with ground-rules no, they are not obligated to respond to requests one can try to stay in the kiddy-pool as long as they want before moving out of cult ... and into culture ...just sayin...as i pass on by

the gift and curse of the western enlightenment ... ...I, WE, and IT ...beauty, goodness, and truth our ordinary inheritance of 1st, 2nd and 3rd person perspectives we largely separated these 3 strands of knowing in the western enlightment where art, morals and science no longer lived under the same roof where each strand was free to evolve and specialize like never before ..so they did, leaving trails of arts, artifacts, languages, and history in their wake creating a new world being shared by 3 different dualisms each moving along their own waves the leading and remote edges of those different strands of discovery have been growing farther and farther from each other even since becoming less and less able to connect with each other out of this new gift/curse arose the need for a wave of a more universalizing post-modern pluralism ...and so we got one, and it came with the gift/curse of the boomers and the last half century of civil rights but while its nice to discover that do we each have a right to our own view and experience of the universe post-modernism is not interested in the differences between art morals and science...and can do little to help solve their dilemna ...and so now we have a full blown 4-way war of worldviews making a new kinda mess out of language as one might expect, all the strands are naturally resistant to notions of reunion with the others and while this is often mistaken for a romantic attempt to return to eden, as one might imagine...a conscious synthesis of the 4 is quite significantly different than anything before