sirguessalot

well, my friend, i didnt say "gauge" was limiting...i think its a sound way to speak of a poll like that cuz much like a gauge, the poll helps us be a little more precise about matters going on "under the hood" speaking of engines...i have found how those 4 spiritual pains may line up with the 4 horsemen of the Book of Rev as if the "horsemen" represent the "natural drives" of every person ... (which also plays out in greater world events, of course...being that the world is made up of masses of people driven by these 4 natural forces) 1 = meaning...1st person subjective view...the realm of ego and self interest and what i find beautiful (or not)...I, me and mine...represented by the single minded self-interested crusader..and the lion 2 = relatedness...2nd person intersubjective view....the realm of culture and conversation and what we find good (or not)...you, us and we...represented by the one who reacts..and the herd 3 = forgiveness...3rd person objective view...the realm of behavior and actions and physics and what is true (or not)...this, it, he, she, they and them...represented by industry and the tool..and the monkey 4 = hope...4th person interobjective view...the realm of systems and processes...these, its, hes and shes...represented by the last enemy to be destroyed (by love)...and the eagle (liberation) this kind of quadralateral affair also lines up with what a lot of other traditions have to say about the workings of self, as well...as if these 4 corners of the human self are perennial notions that have emerged in all languages...in all times im guessing they may even predate humanity, which the book of rev seems to agree...in how each horsemen is aknowledged by an animal, perhaps hinting at how even the higher animals have their own senses of meaningfulness, relatedness, forgiveness, and hopefulness...which is where we got them of course..none of this addresses the next 3 "seals" of the book of rev...but im guessing these first four are plenty to chew on

no sweat OKW78...some of us certainly do think symbolically...or in patterns.... i have come to understand and appreciate all personality types...for the different ways we learn and think and im actually kinda glad you got mad, E...we learn from every thought and feeling ... though i kinda hope you arent mad now... ...id like to try and answer the question as impersonally as possible by saying "yes, it seems there are such places" but of course, that answer doesnt even begin to touch the details of such a crazy messy idea...you know that but ive noticed that such extreme examples are often given as a way to talk about the extreme bounds of forgiveness though it usually shuts down the conversation instead...leads it in merely conceptual directions that dont even apply to the people talking i think/feel most issues of forgiveness deal more with the everyday stuff... like forgiving the tax man, or lawyers, or noisy neighbors, relatives, or society, ex-friends, or parents or children or siblings who have wronged us but perhaps most especially forgiving our selves for this that or the other i dunno...just thinking/feeling outloud

while i have come to appreciate such words as "gauge" in the context of spiritual or doctrinal discussions...i also understand how many do not and for a variety of reasons, too...as we have so many different cultural values at play in the world i imagine what has been called a post-modernist pluralistic view might have the most trouble with such notions but i'll say that there sure seems a sense of interior technology at play in the heart of all religious traditions...science of mind, science of heart, science of will, science of awareness, etc... just as we exercise our bodies and fiddle with gadgets in the exterior world, there are structures and details and mechanisms in the interior world...like dreamwork, like breathwork a disciple of jesus, for example, would be one who was disclipined by practicing what, exactly? what techniques? what medium? what raw material is being examined? so often the doctrinal conversation is about theological concepts and myths and beliefs, but rarely about actual practices that transform one's soul...or actual behavior that uplifts one's perspectives i guess that is what the poll is partially about...an actual practice of introspection...a device...a ruler...a gauge...a way to map our own view of our own interior self a tool that is not to be confused with the actual territory being measured, of course....and not to be mistaken as the only toy in the box but simply a tool, or system, created from a synthesis of contemplative and psychological schools of thought much like the 12 step program...12 levers ...12 koans...12 proverbs ... like 12 rungs on the ladder of wisdom to be climbed up and down ladders, gauges, techniques, technologies, disciples, disciplines, doctrines, methods, traditions, skills, tools, recipes for making spiritual bread... how is it that so many have come to reject the capacity to measure the depth and span of soul? what is it that we are to see in a mirror, anyway, that helps us to recognize that which we see? is there not a radical array of textures and contours and details of the inner self? imprints and impressions and grooves that make us tick on the outside? just where are those dark places that I am to shine light of my awareness and attention? what is life like if we forget these inner details are there? do they somehow go away? or do we carry on as always...driven by inner works largely unknown to us? what would happen if a culture teaches us from youth to ignore and avoid the interior of one's own self? what would happen if a culture teaches us to focus only on the interior?

i dunno, E i hesitate to respond cuz...not that i need to know why, but i cant tell if you are mad because you cant imagine your own self in such a state or mad cuz you dont think its right/moral/sane for someone else to find themselves in such a state or mad that you dont believe that anyone besides jesus christ has ever been in such a state or mad that you dont understand how someone could be in such a state or mad at me for suggesting such states exist at all or something else entirely its certainly not my intention to make anyone mad and i hope it goes without saying that i also feel you are entitled to be as mad as you are i wish i knew what else to say

just a quick comment on something you wrote, Bramble... it seems to me that notions such as hope, forgiveness, and reconciliation have predated TWi by hundreds and thousands of years and perhaps with equivalent words for said notions in just about every language known to man and it seems more and more difficult to write anything these days without using a word that's been tarnished by some negative (or merely specific) experience where public writing in a society with a half dozen worldviews is likely to draw quite a mixed response...making it nearly impossible to communicate much at all in modern english alone, i could probably rewrite that poll with a half dozen different parallel word sets and get a completely different array of responses and so sometimes i wonder if this is not a major major element of our modern dilemna...how like never before we have 20 different english languages in play at once...causing no end to confusion, and people hungry for finding a common form of language ... i think that an important aspect of relatedness has a lot to do with this...finding a common language...more than just finding one's personal sense of meaning, but finding a shared meaning (i.e. friendship)...where my interior and your interior "see" each other, and i know that you know what i mean, and you know that i know what you mean ... but overall, i think the words of the poll were meant to be responded to in whatever way you see fit no pre-existing dogma...but merely people relating to the notions suggested by those words i dunno...i'll stop there i guess

cman... to add...i think perhaps its worth noting that the words "suffering" and "pain" are both used for the same thing at times...as well as used quite differently ... english is such pirate's booty, ya know and thanks for adding those links...i think it helps these kinds of threads a lot ...plz feel free to add more as you find them, as you feel that they apply ... hi RachelYsrael...welcome to the cafe didnt really start this thread because there is something specific that i want to know the invitation is to talk about the poll i started, which addresses pretty basic ways of being... ...meaning ...relatedness ...forgiveness ...and hope not sure you need me to tell you what these words mean to you but feel free to take a stab at explaining how you define them...and how you see (and have seen) them in life or perhaps, to be doctrinal about it, point out some existing practices, methods, theories, theologies, literature, traditions or schools of thought that address them God knows i could probably bore most of you to tears for weeks with my opinions and experiences on the matters ..but that usually only seems to kill the thread quite quickly...which is never my intention but i will contribute as i can...usually based on what is inspired by responses i suppose one could even write about the value of having a poll in regards to such a sensitive topic as spiritual pain and suffering ... and perhaps as a way of pre-conversation (which i think is helpful, though often missing from these hypertextual "conversations") i wonder how you (or anyone else) thinks/feels we might have a written conversation about such things i guess what i am asking now is how to proceed, as a manner of form, or method...in this real virtual written way ...asking useful questions such as: how might we agree to proceed in our reasoning together here about the topic at hand? but i suppose this practice of asking such open questions could be useful for just about any topic, any thread plz feel free to let me know if i have not been clear here

For anyone who is interested, I started a thread in Doctrinal called Doctrinal Discussion for Spiritual Pain Poll Not sure if it is the best/right thing to do...but i did it anyway.

Thought i would create a separate thread for doctrinal discussion of a poll i started in Open called Measuring the Spiritual Pains of a Community Feel free to discuss any aspect of the poll here I will participate as much as i am able a few primers that might help... - did you participate in the poll? - if not, why? - if so, was it helpful? - did you learn anything new about yourself? - do you think such questions might be useful in the future? - what other questions might we ask about the poll? - how might we proceed in reasoning together in this thread?

hi OKLAHOMA CITY WOW 78..welcome to the cafe i can only imagine that, unless one was some sort of saint, or at some other extraordinary stage of awareness and/or compassion, that one will be quite unable to forgive such an act/person, and would most likely be suffering from the wounds of that unforgivable experience all their lives...most likely especially in later years and on their deathbed ...which, imho, makes such a crime much much worse it seems as if the capacity of community to forgive such unforgivability might go a long way to support such a person and hold space for them if/until they make it through the other side of the unforgivability of course, there have been many long threaded conversations on forgiveness at the GSC worth reading my aim for this thread is to point towards 4 specific types of "spiritual" pain that are possible in each of us ...as simply noticing goes a long long way though i realize this poll barely touches the tip of the tip of the icebergs of the whos, hows, whats, wheres and whys of them ...i suppose those details are for each of us to find ways to consider the original form i created the poll from includes spaces for more detailed notes on each category

this whole thread reminds me of a jewish tradition of writing a "vidui"...or "deathbed confession" and seems to show that our intuition is alive and well a basic vidui includes the following: • Address to whom I am presenting myself • Who I am; the accomplishments of which I am proud; the relationships that are meaningful in my life • What I have left undone; what I regret • A statement of surrender, and my prayer/wish for those I leave behind not that one writes a vidui only when they are dying but that viduis are to be written and rewritten throughout life finally to be read when one is dying either by the one dying or by those present to the one dying One traditional form reads as follows: My God and God of all who have gone before me, Author of life and death, I turn to You in trust. Although I pray for life and health, I know that I am mortal. If my life must soon come to an end, let me die, I pray, at peace. If only my hands were clean and my heart pure! I confess that I have committed sins and left much undone, yet I know also the good that I did or tried to do. May my acts of goodness give meaning to my life, and may my errors be forgiven. Protector of bereaved and the helpless, watch over my loved ones. Into Your hand I commit my spirit; redeem it, O God of mercy and truth. Rabbi Eliezer declared: "Repent one day before your death." Whereupon his disciples asked: How does one know which day that is? "Exactly," answered the sage. "For that reason, we ought to live our lives each day as though it were our last." (Babylonian Talmud)

no sweat, e maybe some other time, or not and its my first attempt at crafting a poll like this...so maybe ive made something unusable here...i dunno like i said...seriously playful...the poll covers somewhat messy territory...so the "answers" can be messy too maybe i'll reword it someday all luv

Greetings all I invite you all to take part (or not) in what may (or may not) turn out to be a profound exercise in hi-tech collective introspection, for lack of better words. I will try to refrain from explaining a lot about this poll, but here are a few things i feel worth mentioning up front... This poll is from a form that was developed by a man named Richard Groves, created to be used by individuals wishing to identify the specific nature of their interior suffering, and he has given permission for it to be used and modified. It is mostly being used internationally in the context of hospice care...but not only for those who are experiencing the end of their own life, but also for the family and friends who are with them, as well as for caregivers to help work through their own "caregiver burnout", as well as anyone facing painful transitions and changes in life...or even for those who simply wish to develop their own inner awareness. In other words...anyone can benefit from the exercise, at any stage of their life. And I can answer most any and all questions about all of this and more, but i prefer to answer the questions as they arise, rather than trying to anticipate them all, so feel free to ask things in this thread. I will do my best to be clear...and at least translucent. And keep in mind that this form was designed meant to be used by individuals, so posting as a community poll is going to be interestingly new. Your participation is kinda like stepping foot on the moon. Also keep in mind that the results will merely be a snapshot in a window of time. Some use this form daily over long periods of time to measure spikes and patterns. I guess if we were to repost the poll a year from now, it will look quite different. And please note that i do not intend to use the data for any purpose outside of the GSC. I have found a sense of belonging here, and my intention is to help the GSC see our selves more clearly. I have seen that the well-known "through a glass darkly" may be more aptly understood as "a riddle in a MIRROR"...we are not looking through a window at something else...but into a murky mirror at our inner selves.... in other words...if Christ is within, the nature of Christ is seen more deeply via introspection and self-reflection..imho and so this poll can serve as a collective mirror, of sorts. A little spit and polish never hurts the view. as always...in curiousity, kindness, and precision or as i like to call it... "playfully serious" .... that said... if you wish to participate...please select the option that most accurately describes “how you are within yourself” today. and please feel free to post comments on the thread as well. all space and grace... +ODD

“When we split solitude and community into an either-or and act as if we can get along with only one or the other, we put ourselves in spiritual peril. . . . We have much to learn from within, but it is easy to get lost in the labyrinth of the inner life. We have much to learn from others, but it is easy to get lost in the confusion of the crowd. So we need solitude and community simultaneously: what we learn in one mode can check and balance what we learn in the other. Together, they make us whole, like breathing in and breathing out.” ...Parker Palmer “You have experiences in the practice – peace, joy, transformation, and healing – and on that foundation, you help other people.” ...Thich Nhat Hanh “Let the person who cannot be alone beware of community. Let the person who is not in community beware of being alone.” ...Dietrich Bonhoeffer “We are not wounded alone nor do we heal alone.” ...St. Columba

there may be dozens of bubbles to pop...so start with the one you are in...and then rest a while...but dont stop i suggest googling "interfaith dialogue"...and add that christians talking with and working alongside NON-Christians would do more to move promote compassion in the world than just about anything else and spend some time actually looking into and taking the perspective of buddhist philosophies of compassion, for example...and actual compassion practices involving our actual heart and actual breath ... modern protestant christians ARE NOT the only ones who represent compassion...MANY others have written and thought and taught for MILLENIA about compassion also...google "contemplative christianity" to find out how practicing sitting in periods of silence and stillness (egads!) goes a long way to being moved with authentic compassion...every spiritual history is rich with these kinds of basic truths ... LISTENING A LOT before speaking help revive the Christian lineage of spending more time on developing interior compassion PRIOR to trying to move in exterior forms of compassion the world has many rich occasions of jews, catholics, christians, muslims, hindus, buddhists, celts, hopis, etc... having in-depth conversations with one another right under our noses! intermingled with the BS...religious history is rich with veins of spiritual truth...history and tradition is not the enemy if one knows how to refine gold help end the spiritual racisms and anti-intellectualisms of modern protestantism and evangelicalism ... as well as every other -ism that is suffering from that old malady (and there are obviously plenty) for those who are allergic to the eastern half of our planet's history...Quakers are about as traditionally American and Christian as one can get ... maybe look into what some of them have been doing in the context of deeper spiritual community dialogue practices and contemplation ... and they have been practicing for generations pray for new tongues (no, not like TWI taught...but actual higher ways of using our actual tongues (and minds and hearts connected to them) to convey our inner selves)

i hope this is considered to be on topic...and i wish i could afford to sit and write more but ive written enough around here...i guess...i think my hypertextual days are pretty much over for now so...just a small reminder of these kinds of time-tested possibilities that might help regarding greater civility in dialogue processes i pray it helps yall somehow

nice thread a few from David Bohm...

no...but both sure are genericly named enough to sound alike

from the Gospel of Mark... while im certain that there are many layers of meaning beyond the surface reading of this passage perhaps one can at least notice something being said about the tendencies of the wealthy how they point to the bigness of their donations as justification for gross materialism mostly entirely missing an essential element of an authentic devoted lifestyle

important topic, Irish Eyes. Surely one to handle with care. As far as books...here is a bookstore i helped organize ...all the titles are in the context of spirituality and end-of-life. Some of them you can't find anywhere else. btw...I have no financial connections to that store, so i am not necessarily posting to say "buy books here"...just that the title-list alone might shake some new possibilities loose. And oddly enough, some of the main titles are from a deeply Celtic perspective...which goes with your handle quite well (i.e. death through eyes of the irish"). The Christian-Celtic history in end-of-life caregivers and spirituality is a rich rich well of insight you might appreciate. John ODonohue's book "Anamcara" is an amazing read on the Celtic/christian view of dying. More poetic than doctrinal...but the Irish were perhaps more poetic and oral with their spiritual views than many other traditions, anyway Also, here is a page from my personal website with some links in the fields of death and dying. just that for now, i guess...No puns intended. But i can probably kill this thread in the twinkle of an eye if i start sharing the depth or span of my views on death and dying. Tho ive written about them plenty enough around here, should anyone be interested. Tho i will at least say amen to what Clay pointed to regarded the reconciliation of "death being an enemy" and "loving our enemies"...as the biblical truths of death and the devil seems about the opposite of what we have come to believe in modern times. i would even go as far as to say that this point to one of the most significant challenges of our times...which is why it is as hard to say as it is to read. I can't bring myself blame anyone for being in this kind of hard place. We are soaking wet in trouble here...specifically...imho. space and grace +ODD

((nero)) i just want to throw this out there ... some of what ive been learning... - against all odds, unfinished business is a very strong motivator to keep people from dying like the experts predict. in his altered state, he is likely experiencing interior dialogues and stories...almost like "loops" that go round and round in his mind and soul...that keep him from fully waking up. he may even be experiencing the most important heroic journey or quest of hie entire life. This is not something western medicine is very aware of or interested in. Yet it is a such a major factor in healing. - those subtle sounds and body movements can be the most important modes of communication. Simply "echoing" what he does can often be more valuable than trying to figure out what he means. For example...and this may sound strange, but when he says things like "wa"...dont only try to figure out what it means...but say "wa" back to him, in the same tone and everything. If he shakes his head like a dancing cactus...tell him "you are shaking your head like a dancing cactus." And...whenever he moves a body part...gently give that body part a slight physical resistance...as if to help him feel what he is doing. If he shakes his foot...repeat shaking his foot like he did and say "you shook your foot." Basically just let him know what you see from the outside, either by sound, or by touch. And he may respond by increasing that behavior, even to the point of "snapping out of the inner loop." anyway...i dunno...and im no expert, but this is some of what ive been very lucky to be learning about from my very experienced friends (from the "coma communication" website). Time after time, its this kind of communication that helps people "come out of it"...either to heal and go on living..or to heal by passing away in peace. They have countless stories/case studies of these very kinds of thing. holding you and yours in my prayers... Todd

hehe...yeah...an altered state is an altered state, whether it is from decades of meditation...or a potent microdot reminds me of this..the message of highest angel on the "totem pole" of Christ...bolds are mine, to show how it hums with what i wrote above i like how it seems to point to how the final lesson is also another kind of first lesson ... like how after 9 months of gestation, one may think the trip is over...and we have some big reason to brag and notice the "cold or hot"...reminds me of heaven (cold clear high altitude) and hell (dark hot underworld) like its a reminder NOT to stay put..but time to keep moving like " i wish you were ascending and descending..."

this reminds me of a few things, Mr. H... of course, this is just my opinion and current understanding..."what i've gathered"...but to avoid all the "as it seems" and "IMHOs," i'll just state it "as if it is" "Ascending" spirituality is the basic masculine erotic love drive to seek to enter perfection, evolution, peace, oneness, unity, etc.... There is a "spectrum" of eros (the base sexual connotation is only one of many layers). The entire period of human history from roughly Abraham to Jesus was marked by this very natural and valid wave of human discovery, where the hermits and sages sought to discover the nature of God and experience. So, like John the baptist, they were meditators who lived in seclusion, practicing silence, stillness, starvation, etc... Trying to codify what guys like Abraham discovered (i.e. "this" side of the face of God). Budda is perhaps the most well-known pioneer and codifier of this kind of "narrow path to heaven," offering very clear "pointing out instructions" and practices. But also...Jesus's extreme wilderness jaunt, frequent mountain climbing excursions, and admonitions as to how priests lifestyles had gone far from the "works" of Abraham (i.e. actual spiritual practices that reveal "the kingdom of heaven") ... are all clear gospel examples of ascending. And what you wrote reminds me of a common type of pathology sometimes called "stone buddha" syndrome, where one is so absorbed into the bliss of formless awareness, that they are really not interested in "coming back down from heaven," so they sit there in genuine awe of the "divine self"....basically stuck in "nirvana"...and pure state of Witness...the "eye of God"... "spiritual IN-sight"...yada yada Like the admonitions to "Lucifer," where this archetype is warned against seeking ONLY heaven, for all the trouble it causes. Cuz while this ascending path is obviously a very important one (perfection, peace, God, etc...), but if it is the only way that is sought, it leads to one being so detached as to be "God on vacation," where everything below perfection is considered dirty, ugly, painful and to be avoided as inferior. suddenly, the "ultimate, everpresent nature of Spirit" is not so ultimate and everpresent, but perceived to be limited to the higher altitudes. One does not have to be a spiritual seeker or meditator to get "stuck in heaven," either. Many brilliant conventional thinkers are stuck like this, and so they are not willing to feel what they see so well. Cold, detached masterminds in the fields of politics, business, etc.... Stuck in the delusions that come with the higher mind. And its not just that one gets stuck at the very highest states of awareness...but that one is merely stuck in an "ascending-only" mode. Our culture is soaking wet with this "victory-only" mindset...but NOT while at the pure states of the masters of old...more like second graders who think they are at the top of the ladder, simply for focusing only on the limits of 1st graders on the rung below....satisfied with "not being down there." of course...the antidote to this one-way spiritual erotic love drive and seeking only bliss is AGAPE...the descending feminine motherly spirituality. Actually seeking to taste, touch and feel hell and suffering. Not an entering INTO heaven..but a motherly embracing all the nitty gritty details of earth and form "below." And likewise...only-descending is obviously quite a downer. Like being in a permanant state of mourning and loss. Buddha and Jesus, while firmly established in the ascension, both pointed out the importance of the descending love. Jesus's "Be wise as serpents, harmless as doves" expressed the importance of this continuum of eros and agape. Also, "the Bodhisattva vow" in buddhism expresses it by one's vowing to "forgoe one's own entering into Nirvana in order to help all sentient beings." And so its not for the sake of one's own wholeness, but for the sake of all others. If one has access to detached bliss...one is useless (and worse) if one cant ALSO come back down and embody (in-body) spirit in form. Which is expressed in terms of service and devotion to the earth and all those in it. ...Seeking to fully experience the nature and cause of suffering while simultaeneously seeking to help become free from suffering ....heaven simply gets higher...and hell simply gets deeper but either way...it can be said that "God prefers neither...as the Spirit both Witnesses and Loves equally and fully in both" .... oh yeah...while descending spirituality comes AFTER ascension...it is actually the 2ND time we descended. that path of ascension is NOT the first journey...just the first journey we make while "waking up-ward" ...which is really a journey "back home" Cuz we originally descended from formlessness ("heaven") to form (earth), which resulted in everything that led up to our conception and birth (mineral to vegetable to animal, etc.... ) the first descension is more of a natural and unavoidable "fall" and "sleepwalk" ...while the second is more of a conscious intentional choice to "fall" ... yep...the kinda stuff that puts people into a deep sleep...and can take all night to clarify...even causing some to doze off and fall from the rafters

hm, yeah...nice one cman permit a tad rant on the question of our cosmic address...where "where" is certainly as interesting as asking "when, who, what, why, or how" but as to "where"... depending on one's age, stage and perhaps cultural upbringing... some may point towards their head some at their chest some to their hand or pinch the flesh of their forearm some simply point outward, upward or downward some point way inside to the place that outwardly witnesses thought and vision and dream some may even point to the heart of a loved one and say "i am also right here" those subjective bounds tend to "move" quite radically from time to time i suppose we could also ask "where is 'we'?" or "where is my i?" ...as a variant "where am i?" and such we could ask..."where was our eternity?" and "where will our eternity be?" ...to which we can answer..."it was here now" and "it will be here now" or...if a mountain is in our awareness can our awareness then be located as far away as the mountain? what part of us is our awareness? and how far does it go from here? is our awareness an it? an i? a we? and whatever location we find, we can always ask...."ok, so where are we now....now that we've found where we are" the answer is always already quite clear :huh: and more and more interesting as we near the ends of our mortal lives these are certainly the foolish fun kinds of things those crazy ancients were asking and though concordances and texbooks will not disclose this kind of information they certainly point at it a lot the holy scripture they studied was simply this (picture me pointing at the universe...which includes my self...as well as all of our selves...and all the lexicons)

to add... not that anyone said this here recently...but its how its often interpreted to mean...and Rascal just got me thinking about it... but i believe "love your neighbor as self" is more than the golden rule but a call to realize the nondual nature of one's own identity meaning..your neighbor IS your very self staring back at you... and the little "separate self" we think we are...is the primary illusionary duality that we are called to overcome ...we are the waves ...and we are the ocean a natural necessary amnesia and forgetting we are all born with ... the spiritual journey of life is a remembering of who we already always are yet, we most often use the bible to reinforce our separateness and materialism and reduction of everything spiritual to a mere IT (ignoring I and WE aspects of Spirit) to "BE ONE" with God and Jesus is a similar statement of the radical identity shifting, ego dropping spirituality of Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Buddha and the rest which is why the saints and sages make crazy statements like "I, my self, am also God also experiencing my self" such radical paradox does not have to stump us...but used as the polarity that gives us traction and wholeness ... enmity and separation can be shed like a snakeskin yet, for the ultimate pinnacle such a state seems to be (and is often claimed to be)...such a "state" is also considered the mere entry of the "kingdom of heaven"... a taste...a touch ... to be practiced notice that its not until AFTER the "7th angel" of the book of rev is described that we get a view of the "throneroom" and not until AFTER many other layers of 7s that we see the kingdom "coming" it is at the "7th level of being" that we experience...period... which is why silence is described...its the place of "shhhhh" ... just "Witness" ... and even further "Witness the Witness" its not until AFTER we reach this clearing (wide open unlocked door) that we can learn the spectrum of notes that we can start playing full music its not until AFTER we learn the color wheel that we can paint a full colored painting "heresy" is choosing a part over the whole ... oops...there i go farting in church again sowwy

speaking of keys and discerning of spirits... turned = turned inward to inner man = seeing through a glass darkly = "riddle in a mirror" = "entering the closet to pray", etc... angels = messengers = voices = expressions churches = gatherings (of energy) = turning wheels = chakras = sephirot, etc... interesting how the "keys of hell and death" are mentioned prior to expressing a spectrum of spiritual possiblities (and then expanding on it over and over again in wider and wider expressions) makes a large portion of the book of rev somewhat of a spiritual diagnostic chart for of spiritual pain (not starting with evil spirits in others...but starting with MY OWN spiritual pains) a form of mandala-type painting in writing, but as we read and understand it, we provide the visuals within our own selves stuff like this makes it ever clearer than ever to me, that the bible (especially the book of rev) is at least a jewish "book of dying," and without this context, its hard to make much sense of any of its parables or proverbs ...orientalisms and lexicons are no where near enough and too...like ive been sayin elsewhere... we interpret things from various levels ...magic and selfish interpretations ("jesus save me and give me powers") ...fundamentalist and mythic interpretations ("jesus is our special buddy") ...skeptical and rational interpretations ("jesus is a legend and a myth") ...post-modern and pluralistic interpretations ("jesus is only an interpretation") ...various depths and degrees of nondual interpretations ("jesus presents many useful paradoxes...plus all of the above...plus more") and it seems the writers of the book of rev knew these kind of things and like Jesus and his teachers and students and friends...they were coming from a NOT-DUAL perspective..."I AM" type statements is classic examples of this kind of old old basic perennial wisdom again..i point to the UNI-verse and "all of em", including all the heavens, hells and earths = NOT a flimsy abstraction, but quite a direct and concrete reference but it is quite easy to miss..its SO big...SO many books in here and then you highlight a fragment of a sayin in red = flimsy abstraction, imo but if i must choose a single book for the sake of the exercise, i would put the book of rev (as independent but related to the rest of the bible) on your table of challenge but it would take days, perhaps weeks and months to go through it with you...which aint gonna happen, im guessing