sirguessalot

good stuff Bramble... a few thoughts... ... on metaphysics.... i think it helps to note that there is also a wave of post-metaphysical thought...and i would put ET's work "at the door" to that. and i wouldnt put ETs work and "The Secret" on the same level either to use a very simple metaphor...that would be kinda like mixing the lessons of 1st and 5th grade but i also fear that this topic could get real heady (mostly boring and unreadable) real fast...so i will leave it at this: just as there is a difference between physics and meta-physics...there is a difference between meta and post-meta...and imho, PFAL doctrine is mostly a mix of crude metaphysics and sloppy religion... ...but even a broken clock is correct twice a day ... on inter-connectivity and separation and such... i love what you wrote about that...and the notion of unity always reminds me of the scriptures regarding "love your neighbor as yourself" but it seems that we often settle for much less in our interpretations of it we often tend to apply a "golden rule" type of interpretation...as if the commandment is merely a figure of speech to "do unto other..." but i dont believe that even begins to touch the depth of the commandment in terms of real experienced connectedness..."to love your neighbor AS your self" is an invitation to shift one's natural (but small and isolated) sense of identity. ...to drop the other-versus-self illusion ...if only for a moment...and then perhaps for life ...like asking a leaf to love other leaves as a part of one's whole TREE of self figures of speech aside...we literally see our SELF in each other's eyes...and are capable of living and loving accordingly imho...THIS is the kind of consciousness E. Tolle speaks of...not the carnal materialist self-centered perspective of modernity our very sense of "selfness" is transforming ...whether we resist it or not the very boundaries around who we think we are is constructed...and moves...and are destined to be torn down and rebuilt the self and other dichotomy is only relatively true we truly are a riddle in a mirror ...at first

and refreshing the questions... even if you are not currently sure what words might replace them... ...what words do you feel/think are worth replacing with other words? what very valid words did TWI/PFAL/VPW cheapen...flatten...break off into a stem of an idol?

mmm i often wonder if "all men are liars" speaks as much to the natural woundedness of man as it does to the natural limits of language we are not liars because we speak a lie but because all language is a lie..though also quite innocent of the crime of lying language only points to that which is beyond language just as the map is not the same as the territory though once we embrace this nature of lying tongues..it becomes good again...simply because we know it ...and every single simple lying word becomes a portal to a vast universe of meaning ... and a new tongue is not simply a new tongue...or a new set of definitions...or simply a new wine in the glass but rather...a new way of finding meaning...and a new flexibility and freedom to simply finding more meaning as the moment presents ...a new way of simply being able to refill the glass without fear ...or even dump the glass for a new kind of mug altogether like having a compass to go with the map or a sommelier to go with a dinner party the capacity to know the difference between a cheap table wine and a tonnelier (again...i speak of being able to distinguish the vintage of meaning, not wines) ... "Its a rare thing--like that finest glass of wine when you finally find it" reminds me of how meaning is not really "made," per se but is found ...like truths hiding in the dark ...truths we never find when we believe that evil alone lurks in the dark without...and within ... a positively odd side-note...i've just landed a new role as the warehouse manager for a high-end fine wine distributor where finding the right vintage can be like finding a needle in a haystack and i am finding the quality and quantity of parallels to be staggering

that is a very cool link, cman what is the meaning of life? being ex-TWI...here are some glasses and goblets i recommend starting with... love joy peace power abundant life way tree fellowship prayer believing worship God spirit good evil truth scripture heaven hell eternal wisdom knowledge discipline foundational intermediate advanced class teacher student ... if a tree is a system and language is a system to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil would be to break a stem from the WHOLE system and turn away from the WHOLE tree (holy tree?) and then mistake the dead little STEM for the WHOLE tree rejecting the whole LIVING system of meaning in exchange them for a DEAD stem whose limited meaning is already withering and coming to a fossilized stop this is the original sin of religions and cults ...breaking off an idol of paper that is no longer able to change meaning and forgetting that the WHOLE tree is always still right here imho ... "the living word" is NOT the bible...but life itself as language and respect for the word is respect for language itself as being a living growing system of meaning making and as such...a tree of life...our very lives are languages being spoken like a choir of countless angels not that this vast choir "showed up" on Jesus's birthday ...but that this orchestra of meaning was simply seen for a moment the nature of the WHOLE universe is being infinite forests of fields of voices the tree of living words is already always simply right here within each of us is already a private library of meanings...a lexicon of wines and wineskins ...and a library card ...like a flaming sword that turns every way how free are we?

Please accept this thread as an open bottle of inquiry into this, our living lexicon... feel free to read and/or contribute in states of playful seriousity... ... If a word is the glass...and meaning is wine... ...what words do you think/feel would/should/could be refreshed with new wines of meaning? ...what words do you think/feel would/should/could be spilled of old meaning? ...how might we refresh these questions? chianti? pinot? zin? ... clink!

btw...i do not equate "rebirth" with "having eternal life" or "living forever" so if i said i dont think VPW was born again...that is not a comment about his current or future state ... but a reason i feel VPW's kind of doctrine did not lend towards any sense of authentic rebirth (including his own) is because of the masculine-only and masculine dominated nature of TWI ...in doctrine and practice i would even consider that to be at a stage of spiritual pre-conception ...like where all the single-minded little spermie-boys are fighting each other to escape destruction it seems to me that VPW mixed conception with birth ... limiting his "new birth" analogies to seed being planted and saying that the "new birth" is something that happens inside in an instant i dunno...sounds more like conception to me ask any mother who has given birth if it was a sudden inside job ... like a seed being planted ... and if an organization is institutionalizing a pre-mature masculine-only club... seems it would put a tight lid on any higher development (even something as early as conception would be higher) ...kinda like putting on a condom on God the father btw...i am not talking about gender issues only...though they are involved but teaching women leaders to act like abusive male leaders certainly sounds like making women "do that which is unseemly" and rejecting the feminine voice certainly sounds like male-on-male spirituallity (which is listed with (and causes) war, slavery, etc...) my point...its not hard to spot a unhealthy masculine-only spirituallity (look for possessiveness, control, paranoia, competition, illness, greed, etc..) and not hard to see how the denial of the feminine nature of Spirit leads to the obliviousness to the value of feminine spirituality which leads to resistance to the role of both womb and motherhood in the spiritual life again...not talking about actual wombs and mothers...but their role in becoming "born again"

<---i wish there was one without the angry look... ^_^ maybe a reminder for all of us...i think it helps any conversation to somehow express our opinions on matters of faith and scriptural interpretation as our point of view or otherwise soften the expression as a way to aknowledge our truer position on such subjective matters ...seems to make us more likely to be "heard" ...as well as read and ...cuz absolute statements are always wrong... ;) ... and just so you know, OM ive read your reaction to my comments...and am familiar with your opinions and communication styles but im not even sure how to respond in kind without entering all these cycles of endless circular misunderstandings ...which is something i certainly have no interest in or energy for so unless you can polish your communication skills when reacting to my words please take my silence towards you merely as my attempt to be practical ... back to topic... i'm curious as to whether anyone else has looked into the important distinctions between conception and birth as it relates to being "born again" Jesus seemed quite clear that one can only understand rebirth in light of birth and if so...not only might that present questions such as "what is the nature of spiritual gestation?" but what does that say about the oft-overlooked and strongly avoided feminine face of the divine? is it not a mother who is the all encompassing one during pregancy? and is it not the mother who is the comforter who comes immediately after birth? from what i have come to understand wisdom from above = a descending (like a dove)...and "sophia" is feminine ...the baptism of a passive, witnessing, accepting, gracious, spacious kind of insight and love not the aggressive, seeking, hunting, climbing, digging, building, possessive kind of love and as Jesus said...that he had just come from the masculine divine ...but a father's role in conception is quite small and brief and blissful... and any dolt could do that and his role during gestation through infancy is mostly indirect ...and about supporting the mother and a child's very crucial early development is in the hands of mother until some sort of rites of passage in the early teens ...but remember, i am referring to rebirth where the reintroduction of the role of masculine divine may not come til long after one is "born again" and may most likely look nothing at all like the patriarchal christian brotherhoods and fatherhoods of TWI and ilk as if we are born again to be more than "conquerers of the world" where the world we conquer is at first the terror of yet another birth canal and we are born as infants all over again into the bosom of a wise comforter

thanks a la and as it seems i have konked out an active thread i'll add a bit more thought-food to nibble on then go away ... as ive advocated before, that our sense of self develops along a spectrum here is my own quick summary of possible management styles according to a portion of that spectrum A) selfish...like the stage 2 and 2.5 i described above...tyranny, bullying, survival of the fittest, my way or the highway, bosses needs and wants above all (young children) B) exclusive...family-oriented, teams, cults, clans, clubs, tribes, fans, our way or the highway, shared credos, shared cliches, shared mottos (children and teens) C) expert...tested and tried, proven by peers, skilled craftsmen, pedigrees, colleges (teens and young adults) D) social...free for all, services, social justice, freedom from prejudice, nonjudgemental, unbiased, democratic (adults) E) introspective...self-discovery, deeper meaning and purpose, monastic service, esoteric seclusion, vocational and role rehab, transition and crisis (midlife) F) transformers...system changers for service of all, individual movers and shakers, truly integrated leaders, councils of independents (elders) notice how each one builds on the previous, and while an individual cannot skip stages, an individual of any stage can play (or try) a role in any level of management style im sure its not hard to imagine how important it is for us all that adults do not remain in the ego stage of children im also sure its not hard to spot where all of these are illustrated throughout the Bible

is this evangelical "born again" formula really anything like the pattern of a natural birth, like Jesus taught? from what i understand, natural births can be messy and complicated and only come after a prolonged period of complex development is spiritual birth going to be less amazing? less of a journey? less of a trial? its been a while since i looked, but has anyone else noticed that greek word for "born" in the "born again" of Peter's epistle is the word for "conception" if so...how does that fit with what Jesus said? what does that do to the "born again" formula of PFAL and Christian evangelicals? it seems to me that there is much scriptural evidence to support a multi-layered process by which one is "spiritually born" if "process" sounds too much like "works"...it is...but so is 9 months of gestation...a process in the works that we had no choice in and there is typically a struggle to being born...but that struggle is still not something we choose to do...but something that we must do we are "made whole" by grace...not by simple magic formulas that only exist as concepts in our minds ... and too...what if a non-christian manifests fruit of the spirit? what if a non-evangelical christian teaches wisdom, heals the sick, feeds the poor, helps transform lives and bring peace? is it possible that "biblically christian" is actually much much higher than what we think is "biblically christian"? wider? deeper? why not? what is possible? do we need new tongues?

this is one of the books i am currently reading i very much enjoyed his first book a few years ago, "The Power of Now," and quite easily consider Eckharte Tolle one of the most relevant spiritual voices today. the fact that his work is being accepted so widely in the mainstream is pretty amazing, but not all too surprising, as his way of being not only smoothly synthesizes and summarizes a wide swath of the world's contemplative traditions, but his "pointing out" is very plain english, simple and direct. also...i think it helps to keep in mind that while he is a specialist in pointing at consciousness, he does not spend a whole lot of time in the nitty gritty details of other specialized fields of consciousness. His is a very important but general message/technique. Good thing most fields of consciousness studies accepts other corners of the field. but if all anyone ever read in the field was ET...it is way plenty, with a lot of leverage for interior transformation. and as with all such teachers...i'm sure he may end up with some sort of cult/culture surrounding him. But given the nature of what he is saying, at least it will be a open peaceful culture. a lot of material googles up on him, too thumbs up

re: predatory management styles... a little from “ego development theory” as it is studied in management contexts... of the 6 or so stages of ego (more like 9 with all the sub-stages), VPW's management style seems to fit the description somewhere between Impulsive Stage 2 and the Self-Protective stage 2.5 (also called "Opportunist") which = about 5% of managers in the US some snippets from stage 2 management style.... ...shows signs of beginning use of language. ...thinks in crude dichotomies ...concerned with safety and gratification of basic needs. ...reflects only a first person perspective. ...emerging ego reflected in such statements as "I want" and "mine." ...magical ideas prevail and a sense of unlimited power. ...one’s punishment is not related to one's behaviour but perceived as random or retaliatory. ...inadequate conception of the complexities of adult life... some snippets from stage 2.5 management style... ...familiar to most of us from watching or dealing with toddlers....everything becomes a test of wills. ...tantrums are a result of thwarted will as well as reaction to conflicting needs and wants. ...wary of others' intentions and assume the worst. ...Life is a sum-zero game "I win, you lose." ...only sees the world from the perspective of their own needs and wants. ...incapable of insight into themselves or others. ...self is not yet a separate adult, but synonymous with one's own wills, ideas, wishes. ...beginning ability to anticipate reactions in others …"if i understand what others are after, i can better manipulate them to get what i want." ...others are to blame, never oneself. ...the world is a hostile dangerous place. ...anger towards the world is projected outwards. ...self-perpetuating dynamic of very low trust and hyper-vigilance. …showing weakness of any kind is dangerous …use system of distortion to minimize anxiety and maximize self-esteem yada yada ... and as i read through stages 3 and higher, i only see some qualities that match TWI’s organizational style. ..and none in stage 4 and beyond and because stage 3 is that of an in-group follower…where the ego over-identifies with a group…it seems as if the leadership style of TWI was less-developed than the followers (thus, pulling followers down to earlier organizational structures). such as how schoolyard bullies, or mob bosses, when unchecked, can gain control and influence over packs of children that are a little more civilized and sophisticated than even themselves. ... summary... stage 2 and 2.5 for leaders stage 3 for followers stage 4 and beyond = "enemies" ... btw…as “ego-development” pertains to being “born again,” it seems that the management style of the biblical “born again” Paul was such a radical shift in self-perception as to only be described by stage 6…where the ego is finally transcended but included …accepting, unassuming presence, fully empathetic, non-interfering ability to be with whatever is ...sees the dignity in all manifestations of life …non-demanding, non-controlling, down-to-earth …aware that they are only a drop in the pool of ongoing evolution …concern with global justice, spontaneity, existence and creativity …cosmic, universal perspective …“witnessing” rather than “observing” ...comfortable with paradox ... of course, there is a lot more to all this, and these theories are just one model...but I thought some notes on ego studies as it can be identified in management styles might help the conversation. imho, there are more than a few worldviews of difference between TWI management style and what might be considered an enlightened compassionate leadership style patterned after Jesus. whether this means someone is "going to hell" or just getting their goodies held back from them when they get to heaven...seems another matter altogether

thanks waysider...and healthy skepticism is quite fine with me lets see if i can answer without spiralling into some long unreadable scroll... i'll start by pointing out that i am not speaking of "the art of learning to accepting death"...although that is certainly a vital part of it but the actual art (i.e. discipline, act, science, etc...) of dying...literally...in terms of human consciousness ...the art of actually literally experiencing your true nature as it presently exists beyond the mortal human ego = "dying" ... as it might relate to those who die young, or those who live a life of diminished capacity... ...we all end up in the same state of radical purity anyway... and those who "die before they die" know this from experience, and cannot mourn loss the same way ... re: biblical answers, guardian angels and the age of accountability... determining (let alone communicating) what is authentically "biblical" is certainly a task...perhaps moreso today than ever. and i am guessing you bring up "guardian angels" and "age of accountability" because of "born again" doctrines of TWi and ilk, and the obvious trouble they cause in how we try to reconcile God's grace and eternal life for the innocent death and victims of crime and such i think a huge problem is in our modern magic/mythic "born again" doctrine... maybe start deconstructing that, and the other things may start falling into place too but i will say that it seems that "guardian angels" and capacities that come with the various stages of life ("age of accountability") are quite important and valid and do have rich historic applications in "the art of dying" though i dont know if this is the right thread, or if i am up to the task of digging into it right now. But i can suggest looking into jewish thought on angels for a more "biblical" view. and i hope my previous comments helped clarify what is meant by "art of dying" a bit more

The Rapture of the Church can best be describled as .... ...a product of the fantasies and fears in an era of unprecedented anxiety and terror of dying ...and a grave distortion of biblical content and the profound ignorance of the nature and history of human consciousness ...and a hint of racism embedded it has become ever clearer to me that the Bible is mostly a compilation of many eras of "jewish books of dying" where notions such as "the coming of the lord" simply refers to one's ordinary death although "death" is often also considered the same as "salvation," "enlightenment," "liberation," etc... which can happen before we die...which is the ground of spiritual practice which is the essence of the spiritual teachings of Jesus and others like ive said many times around here there is a full spectrum of ways to interpret any single artifact including biblical texts and on a basic model of 7 steps, where "dying to egoic attachment to human form" starts at the 5th... the rapture doctrines (PFAL or otherwise) fall somewhere between the 1st and 2nd (magic and myth) although trying to rationalize the rapture doctrine is a sure sign of reaching for the 3rd (rational) ...but thats just one simple model imho, the longer we try to justify the magical/mythical rapture doctrines the less time we spend becoming wise to the nature of actual human transformation essentially continuing our legacy of leaving entire generations of youth spiritually elderless sorry if all this sounds harsh but i dunno how else to say it any more via brief writing and it seems as if many are running out of time all space and grace...

yeah to add... it seems most all of the ancient schools of thought that specialized in such "touching and tasting" the finer distinctions between body soul and spirit were also quite directly connected to the arts of dying... the capacity to understand the subtler and subtler states helps as one's subjective position moves farther from mere body and closer to spirit allows one to "hold space" for those who are ill, injured and/or dying....as the subtle and causal experience become more vivid and active for them/us early in life, we think we are our body...and so our subjective position is that of a body...unaware of self as a body but as we age, we begin to discover our body...and so what was once subject becomes an object and our new subjective position is that of thought and feeling and if/as we move deeper into spirit...those thoughts and feelings become an object in our experience and our new subjective position becomes "thinner and thinner" and "deeper in" at the end of life...ideally, we are to be rooted and grounded in Love...which is the space and grace of our original and final formless self that never really left and the body and soul (and all their distinctions) are seen as objects that arise in "our spirit"...having been held there all along when we pass ...we simply echo forever in a million ways...imprinted in God's experience...which is to say imprinted in reality this fulfills and embraces the magic, mythic, rational, and relative views of the afterlife as being valid ...plus our body and soul is like a wave of water returning to the ocean we never ever left where we are already always soaking wet ... regarding gut feelings...and how we dream with our entire body i entered the dream once while awake and wanted to talk to my ancestors about life and death so i lay on my back in the sand and looked up at the starry night and asked them..."why am i here?" all the galaxies shimmered and giggled like a child and answered... "you already know" my gut agreed...cuz i did i asked... "so what do i do now?" and they answered "just be clear" odd...how young the ancients seemed and how incredibly old this kid felt

it seems that with direct experience of the interiority of man radical complexity is the name of the game kaleidoscopic is more like it more shades and textures and facets than one can map though that does not keep one from painting a picture of a mountain or mapping its trails, or measuring the layers and types of rock ... i think it helps to note that the body/soul/spirit type distinctions are more like the simple initial view from far off but once we get closer, we see that there are more and more variations and overlaps between them like counting the colors of a rainbow we can say there are 3 primary colors or 6 colors or more but once we put down these basic charts and get down to appreciating the actual texture of color we will discover a thousand thousand variations ... some traditions/philosophies/tongues make the same body/soul/spirit distinctions but call them things like gross, subtle and causal and then go even further to separate gross/body into various degrees of vitality such as the difference between food and hair and skin and organs and nerves and DNA, for example or the subtle/soul...separating the thinner substances into emotions, thoughts, memories, imagination, vision, feelings, dreams, breath, etc... and even the causal/spirit into this side of the firmament, on the membrane of the firmament, and the other side of the firmament and then "way above" the other side of the firmament, then "way way above" the other side of the firmament, etc... ("the firmament" being that frothy edge between form and formlessness) even finer and finer distinctions have been made....some lineages specializing in the real high altitude atmospheric stuff of consciousness and what it feels like, looks like to move through them though some of them specialized without the baggage of elitism, ethnocentrism, fundamentalism, prejudice, etc...thereby allowing and excepting other specialist fields

being that the rational worldview arises from the ashes of the death of a mythic worldview it seems there is naturally a lot of energy spent debunking the mythic...and rightfully so but because the rational has not yet experienced a post-rational worldview one cannot distinguish between pre-rational and post-rational worldviews when the truth is, many of the world's oldest religious texts were written from a post-rational worldview which included rigorous peer-reviewed inquiries into the nature of consciousness but that all this post-rational work was done in a pre-rational world of language presents somewhat of a condundrum for those who are unwilling or unable to see meaning beyond mere language like ive written about many times....there is at least a spectrum of meanings behind the word "God" and until one can distinguish a word from the meaning behind the word...one is locked in Babylon without the keys and one of the only ways to make this distinction is to skilfully ask the speaker what they mean thereby accessing meaning...bringing subjective values into the light of objective examination being that the next stage after rational is the first post-rational stage where deeper meaning is accessed it is natural that this would be the limit of rational thought...and better yet, its most immediate challenge deeper rational inquiry into one's subjective nature causes what was once subject to become object which then presents subjective material to the realm of inter-objective reason btw, geo...for what its worth...your stream of consciousness therapy thread seems to me to be a great example of this very thing trying to happen

strange as intimately familiar as i have become with the topic of death and dying since leaving twi i am finding it more and more difficult to express my opinions on the matter without coming across as overly critical ...though i also often find myself where self-preservation ends and the need to let out a loud groan begins so i will at least groan a bit here...and offer a very general pass through how the afterlife might be viewed from the various stages of faith... 1) the afterlife is a magical place where my egoic wants and needs will be met. It is extra-ordinary, supernatural, 1-dimensional, and based on my subjective impulses and limited to my imagination. The end of my own personal suffering is a primary element. There is no differentiation between subjectivity and objectivity. 2) the afterlife is a mythic place that is based on a the specific storyline that is shared by my exclusive group. It is typically ethnocentric, cliche, metaphorically challenged, and limited to 2-dimensional concepts of the past and future. Justice for our suffering is a primary element. This is more-or-less a group version of the previous selfish view of the afterlife. 3) the afterlife is a rational place where the impact of my life will carry on according to this cause-and-effect universe and objective, tangible, provable realities, but not according to myths and magic. Objective 3-dimensional truth is a primary element. 4) the afterlife is a relative place where no one can really know for sure about. How we came to our beliefs and languages about the afterlife is to be deconstructed, dismantled and examined. Equal rights for all views of the afterlife is a primary element. 5) the afterlife is an everpresent and ordinary field that can be experienced now as the ground and essence of all our being. We return to Spirit..and Spirit is this infinite empty space that both body and soul exist in. Space is original and final nature. Dreams, visions, and altered states of consciousness are examined as the texture of the path towards radical emptiness. Actual practice and actual experience and actual transformation is a primary element. 6) the afterlife is everything...the sum of all previous views...the unity of form and formlessness...the unity of The One and The Many ..."the Mind of Christ" (naked consciousness) ...so radically presently inclusive as to be able to say that "the dead have never died and are with us now and forever in the infinite memory of God." This is a view that God is in everyone, and everyone is in God. This is the perspective that delivers a truly radical degree of grace…an incredible hope...a peace on earth...a goodwill towards all...yada yada. btw...it does seem as if the Bible can be interpreted and re-interpreted at every stage of faith and it seems that we often find ourselves struggling between the pulls of 2 stages.

Parallel (and not perfectly) to stages of ego development, and stages of moral development, and other developmental maps and models, are James Fowler's Stages of faith development i post this as a way to reinforce the simple notion that all kinds of development/evolution/growth/transformation/change occurs in general stages and that subjective belief develops in measurable stages...where subject becomes the object (of belief) at each "leap" in Bible-speak...this kind of map could be considered "an interpretation of tongues of angels"...and profitable to edify (i.e. invite structural change). ...to "graduate from the law" would be to stop "believing like a child" leave behind "stage 2 faith" (typically based on ethnocentric myths) ... and "become a man" and enter stage 3 (based on rational expertise and actual proof of truth)...eventually to "enter into the wilderness" of stage 4 (the beginning of discovering deeper interior meaning)...yada yada... ...thus, our faith is like gold refined seven times and each time is not some small easy change...but a humiliating/humbling experience of interior deconstruction and reconstruction...as if our previous "map of beliefs" is dipped in fire and consumed...like a cracked pot being shattered and crushed to powder as with birth...transformation is not a one-time event i say all this because i find that hearing such things might help some prepare for the journey as we often mistake the struggle and pains of rebirth for mere destruction and desolation often causing us to try to resist transformation altogether in other words...it helps to know...so we arent taken by surprise, mistaking "Christ for a thief"

thanks Bramble to add...as long as i'm on this page overall...i find that the word "God" can continue to be useful and valid as a word at every stage even when "God" is being used to describe a previous myth debunked in a sense..."God" keeps "moving" and "expanding" ...again and again...higher, wider, deeper... as does meaning, forgiveness, hope, love, faith, reason, etc... ... hope, i notice, has been a common theme in this thread though it also seems that not everyone's current view of God is primarily for hope's sake some views of God lean more towards a remedy for loneliness some more for aesthetic meaning perhaps even some for a lack of better words and of course, just because one drops a "mythic afterlife script," our need for a future hope certainly does not vanish with the onset of rational perspective. We are still mortal, and/or we are still concerned with the future of someone/thing/where/how. ...what might a rational hope look like? is there one? i often wonder if a hallmark of rational thought is to experience a period of deeper hopelessness, perhaps even leading to the discovery some sort of "post-rational" hope i know i've personally experienced what seems like this ... btw...another good word for "stage" is "wave" and not just for allegorical reasons

thanks for the interest and sincere apologies, as i'm actually in a process of re-reinventing my approach to art...as well as my website so ive recently pretty much stripped the site of all pages except a placeholder for the front page which is the link at the top of the thread not sure when it will be, but if you wish, i will let you know when i redo the site again thanks again

kinda glad this thread got moved to doctrinal...i dont feel as out of place rattling off like i often seem to to add... a note in regards to feeling the presence of God, and glimpses of God... in the fields of consciousness studies and such, as i understand them...there is a distinction being made between what are called "states" and "stages" of consciousness "states"= just as it sounds...are temporary states of consciousness...usually loosely divided (for the sake of conversation) into waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep....or gross, subtle and causal....which are pretty much the same as the more traditional body soul and spirit...but they are also called many other things, and also full of even finer distinctions...made by those who are really really into such things. But basically, everyone moves through all states on a daily basis, although we may not recall this, but they are normal, native phases of how we experience existence. The deeper practices (and crazy accidents) at the heart of most all religious traditions were intended to access and/or give language to the full spectrum of altered states possible in man...thus there are hundreds, if not thousands of terms used...from shekinah to satori, from kensho to I AMness, from the eye of God to the pure Witness, from enlightment to rebirth. "stages"= established plateaus of consciousness, based on interior structures of "selfhood" and "ego development" and such. This self-constructed position develops sequentially along a spectrum of stages. Western psychologies have been shedding light on these via centuries of rational investigation..often through sentence completion tests and other forms of inquiry and dialogue. One reason why it is so very important to make the distinction between states and stages, is because we experience all "states" at any "stage," but we interpret "state" experiences according to our "stage." In other words, if i experience a profound spiritual state of consciousness (such as a period of bodily felt unity with "The Great Cause?") while at a mythic stage of "selfhood," i may interpret the experience as "feeling the presence of God, the Father." But when i am moving into a rational stage, i cannot deny having the previous state/glimpse, but i will certainly be challenged to continue interpretating the experience in the same mythic way. So i might explainit in purely objective terms, maybe involving neurosciences or biology or physics. of course, my rational modernist interpretation will have its own shelf life ...eventually introducing a worldview that values personal discovery of the meanings of experience above all...a stage that see the limits of rational language. ...which, btw, is the worldview most inclined to object to everything i just wrote about state/stage distinctions...or most any other such distinctions, most likely from mistaking them for merely rational or merely mythic worlviews...which they are not. But that is another thread, i suppose. ... another quick point...the stages i have described is a very general description, and only one language-set possible for describing them, and only barely begins to describe the many other radical details and variables of human consciousness. and in no way do i think the whole of a person can be so easily reduced to stages...such language is merely a limited instrument for measuring a limited scope of consciousness, and not the same as that which is being measured. Much as inches are not the same as the lumber. and finally...i am not suggesting that these stages are a preexisting reality...which is more of a merely metaphysical position...but that they are essentially organically built as we go along and finally, apologies if i come across too impersonal...i am no expert, and am mostly just an artist...and what i have written is not only a synthesis and translation of my own understanding, but also of my experience of life. I hope it doesnt come across as being preachy about an absolute position. I am not so good at relating via public writing like this. I relate by offering concepts and possibilities i feel may help. ... for what its worth

i applaud your courage to start this thread, Vickles your opening line is simply perfect cuz oddly enough, contrary to the magic and mythic worldviews that claim ownership of the world's scriptures it would seem that this no-thing perspective of God is exactly what the saints and sages of the world's wisdom traditions have been discovering and describing for a few millenia now how, in a very deep sense..."God" is not a thing at all...not an object... but the clear, invisible, profoundly silent, timeless, unmanifest reality of emptiness, clear light, pure witness, changeless, formless, spaciousness that all objects exist in extra-ordinary and inescapably obvious and everywhere present ... and the very "substance" of our subjective experience of life ...in this kinda way, eastern spirituality (which all abrahamic traditions are) and western psychology are meeting quite directly and smoothly ... as ive posted before in doctrinal...it seems we (as individuals and cultures) move (or not) through a spectrum of worldviews..or Godviews, if you will and a rational objective Godview naturally forms when we reach the limits of our mythic Godview ...such as when we just cant seem to find that darn mythic God anywhere ...which is actually quite perfect... "it is what it is" is perfect as well ... but most rational arguments against religion today are only taking a stand against the merely mythic Godview and usually make the mistake of assuming that the mythic Godview is the only Godview there is like ive been saying to the crickets around here...there are aspects of mankind (such as worldviews) that develop (or not) through a much broader spectrum and each new perspective is usually a profound rite of passage...basically a series of small deaths..like shedding another layer of ego the relationships and interactions between worldviews is not only important and helpful to try and understand for our selves but perhaps highly valuable for solving wider cultural conflicts for those who might be interested...i can restart a new thread on the topic in doctrinal wishing you all grace in your journey Vickles

oddly enough, i think your crazy scary idea might be right, e i suspect that in one sense...all of humanity is quite broken, disturbed and out of its mind the GSC is just a cozy corner culture of all our beautiful madness i think its safe to say that strange visionary experiences are common and have been throughout all history...all races...all cultures the nature and variety of states and stages of consciousness experienced by humanity is as exotic as any wilderness though that is not to say they cannot be studied and explored and catalogued like any naturalist would study the wild i think its important to note that how we interpret the meanings and causes of those experiences vary just as wildly and of course, how we interpret the same experience may change as we change (if we change) and by "how we interpret a visionary experience," i dont just mean "what i say it means," but the process of interpretation

a simple observation... until i posted this thread, seems there was over a dozen posts per day in these doctrinal forums folks were actively arguing and debating doctrines and theologies and such so why do i feel like i farted in a church?

RachelYsrael, if yer still around, im just wondering if my response to your post (or anything else in this thread) provided an answer. Roy...as always, your combination of a big heart and curious mind is refreshing to me. I'm not surprised at all that you are able to go on for hours with questions. I have come to feel that the primary thing distinguishing "word of wisdom" from "word of knowledge" ...is how one of them always ends with a question mark...and the other with a period. Doesnt seem hard to figure which can be associated with "words of wisdom"...ask any child who wishes to be wise.