sirguessalot

wow, e. what a gift. off topic...i suscribe to a board game blog written by an Erik Arneson on about.com. I often wonder if he is related.

yep. yep. yep. :) and thanks for telling. what a beautiful house. inspired me to riff a sec... nightmares seem like the most helpful kinds of dreams. practicing dreaming to engage them more clearly and memorably helps even more. lucid dreaming even more. like lightning a menorah to illuminate the darkest corners of our house. consciously talking to voices of the self. wrestling with our shadow is another important kind of dream. like jacob's. "love your enemy." it is also not uncommon for the body to be telling us about health issues using people and things in dreams. and dreams only become more and more significant and full as we age. more vivid and meaningful. Peter said "old men shall dream dreams"...why? had they forgotten or something? a culture of superstition that fears the arts of dreaming well probably embeds the insanity it claims to heal. one of the richest legacies of judeo-christian life and history is the dreaming arts.

funny. many of the kid and adult players i knew picked "chaotic evil" for their character alignment. and many of them actually played that way. "hack and slash"...like many of the popular video games today. as the game master i liked to play the good aligned monsters to either thwart or help them. the monster manual template even helped me design my own pantheon of angels. children playing God using game theory...go figure. gee, thanks Asimov and Tolkien.

this thread is gettin rich...i was a dungeon master long before i was a twiggie...the original monster manual had entire pantheons of demons (chaotic evil) and devils (lawful evil) but no angels...although it included a few good aligned spirit beings...like sphinxes. ... one of the last word studies i did before parting with twi was on some KJV NT occurance of "superstition"...something-daimonia in greek...meant "fear of demons" or something something clicked and i saw the superstition in twi. nowadays i see the histories of psychology and consciousness in bible stories about demons...so i use various types of meditation, prayer, dreaming practices and jungian shadow-work to illuminate the hidden archetypes of my own soul. there are notions in hospice education that caregivers ought to prioritize the contemplation of the inner life as a way to make peace with your demons/devils/shadows whatever. its almost like a complete reversal of superstition...where instead of fighting or fleeing demon enemies, you invite them to dance. we seek a transformation of lead into gold. likewise with suffering...instead of fighting or fleeing the flames...we learn to walk in the fire.

i could probably elaborate a bit better if i knew something about which parts you didnt understand, e. but i will try to restate a few things anyway. im basically stating that i think there are two basic ways we can look at "spirit" experiences: 1) as entities in the universe 2) as aspects of the human psyche. and that i think there are wide varieties (exotic, like in nature) of both. and i think both are valid and important. ive experienced the entities, and ive experienced the powerful voices of the soul. i feel that the voices of the soul are not only more common, but higher priority for each of us. any of this help?

i dont doubt the existence of an exotic array of spirits as entities in the universe...i cant help but assume this any more. i find it valid to classify them as good and evil in relative terms only, but not absolute. i also dont doubt the existence of an exotic array of spirits as voices in our minds hearts and bodies. Any given soul has choirs of choirs of angels singing inside at all times. Sometimes one or more of them are more discordant than others. Sometimes more harmonious. The overall composition varies wildly from person to person and time to time. Size does not seem like a limitation on depth or complexity in this direction. In general, to find those primary and overarching voices of them all is to find those archangels we have been seeking outside all along. imho...this orchestra of inner angels and demons are not foreign entities that do not belong...but native inhabitants...like vital organs. What makes them evil to us is much like when an organ is injured, fails or somehow out of balance with the rest of the organs.

We often see that the least mature can rise to positions of authority over people who are even more mature than they are...mostly because these least mature kinds are not limited by the same moral boundaries when making decisions. Yet the more grown-up we are, the less we are able to lie and harm that way. Reminds me of so many of the lyrics in the psalms...like ancient jewish blues tunes asking how and why this can be. As we see, in politics, business and religion, it is very difficult to remove such a brute beast once they are in that position. Which is why the answer is a long term strategy...Teach your children well. It is near impossible to teach a childish adult. imho...to "blaspheme against the holy spirit" is to avoid, attack or dismiss self-awareness and self-examination. The less aware of our selves we are, we more we are like sleepwalkers. There is no protection from our underlying animal nature. To reject an examination of our consciousness is to add more suffering to the pile we already have. The grief and forgiveness pain lasts long after the beast is dead. Generations...even Millenia.

perhaps he became aware of his self as a form of animal for the first time. the only thing that changed was his perspective...as if he had noticed and identified his own human animal body for the first time. like an infant not being aware that the toes are attached to the same body as the mouth that is sucking on them. at some point..."oh, i am a me!" and then, hopefully..."oh, you are a me too" and then, hopefully..."oh, we all have a me." then, "oh, i have a me, but i am also much more than just a me."

i think a key point of that passage involves stages in the life of a human ego...or self-sense. just as there is a moment in our childhood when we recognize that the face in the mirror is also ours, there can be a moment in our adulthood when we recognize that the face in the mirror is also God's. And this state/stage typically does not come until we are in the last half of life...or close to the end. Sometimes even injuries or suffering can bring us there, momentarily or "permanently." "but then shall i know even as i am known"...or "as I AM is known." this a point of view that Abraham, Moses and Jesus...even the Buddha and others...claimed was possible. A recognition of the original ground of our being. As if the floor of our very subjective position is like a forest...and for a time, we become like a leaf who looks at the tree and mistakingly thinks the tree (or the forest) is an "other". but if we speak of tree...we include all the leaves. like if we speak of ocean...we include all the waves. which is why the contemplative side of judeo-christian history involved practices to help us become more accident prone to being able to realize the scope of our "witness." to see God as the background of our very nature. we do not become one with God (except in language), but rather we wake up to how we are already always one with this infinite field of clarity and creation that everything is happening in...right now. the very nature of how we are experiencing the world is "God." Consciousness on a cosmic scale...and we are already saturated and soaked from head to toe. in this sense, "to love your neighbor as your self" is not as much a statement of the golden rule, but a statement about identity. in the end, there is no "other" ...except in language. This is why a mirror is used. So that we look within to see Christ and God. It is the most direct and immediate path. seeking God and Christ outside of the self leads to weeping and gnashing of teeth in the darkness. Like trying to find out who this other person is on the other side of the mirror.

imho, when it comes to interpreting the symbols and metaphors, the greek words may only help a little more than the english words, but not much. Because a literal interpretation of a greek word is still a literal interpretation. Same with any other language. Comparing archetypes of the Bible to patterns of archetypes in other world scriptures and histories as well as non-scriptural literure may help a lot too. Joseph Cambell's or Carl Jung's work, for example. Like them, I find that the Bible makes more sense when compared to everything else like this. And it only becomes more significant and irreplacable as such. Comparing the Bible to the world's "sacred books of living and dying" for example. The heavy fiery metaphors of the Revelation may make more sense when seen in light of our relationship with suffering and dying. Not supernatural otherworldly dimensions, but the extra-ordinary experiences of aging and dying that all human beings encounter. It may be that the Revelation is an instructional riddle written for ancient monks and nuns to understand human nature more clearly so that they may serve in the fields of greatest suffering...and so the judeo-christian roots of medicine and history of hospitals are all wrapped up in this book. So in the end, like others, we may find that the universal mind of Christ is just that...universal. Like a finger pointing at the moon, the language of scripture is pointing to something quite beyond the limits of language, and therefore beyond the ethnic boundaries of proper names. and so pointing at the same moon that other languages are pointing at. And so the language can be a trap. We can spend a long time looking at the finger instead of the moon. like you said...what do the figurative symbols represent? they are pointing at something else. much like the arts of dream interpretation. a dream about a house is typically not really about a house, yet quite about somewhere we inhabit. what about candles? thronerooms? winged beasts? horsemen? seals? could these represent very important aspects and insights regarding the soul and psyche? different stages and layers and forces that drive us from the inside, both individually and collectively? i think so. to unlock these are to understand how we work...and so more capable to stop ourselves from adding to the world's problems. but again, this is inward stuff almost completely avoided and dismissed by our western materialist objectivist literalist type approaches to interpreting scripture...both science and religion. we will never unlock the mysteries unless we step foot in the actual territory it is describing...which is at the heart of prayer. the outer darkness being a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth may refer to the grief and suffering that results from the lack of inward examination.

i did. i love that crazy way nun. i pray she died well. happy to see you too.

amens...amens

"spiritual directors" and "ignation discernment"...finally, some signs of sanity and wisdom in an RC experience. scriptures (along with everything else) are interpreted and applied at different stages of human understanding. humans may age, but there is no guarantee we develop. so there are RC organizations run by adults with egos of a 3 year old, adults with egos of an 8 year old, adults with egos of a 13 year old, adults with egos of 18 year old, adults with egos of 30 year olds, and so on. same goes with bankers, cops, presidents, teachers and so on. the words and names being used are deceptive. the values, priorities and actions are typically quite clear. just because an organization or institution has formed around something does not mean it is without value. depends on who set the ethical and practical foundations...and how grown up they are inside.

i have too much to say about this topic. i'll try to keep it short. imho, without the "hospice" context, the scriptures are confusing. even dangerous. no end to the trouble caused. "ministers of fire" describe those who handle suffering. they enter the flames, walk in the flames, bathe in the flames. "keys of hell and death" indeed. every religious tradition under the sun, in their highest most developed forms, involve those who serve the sick and dying. this includes actual practices to prepare one for such service as a way to keep from simply causing more harm. to purify one's self is to burn off shadows of self-delusion and ignorance by actually practicing being alone with God A LOT. very much like actually practicing dying as a way to understand dying. sit down, be quiet and still. often. eyes of fire indeed. if we dare to look inside long enough to shed light on what is hidden. the more self-aware one becomes, the more times one has been humiliated and disillusioned. even our very definition of self changes many times. the less aware of a self we remain...the more like sleepwakers we are. racing around trying to fix and save people and nations and cultures, but basically leaving a trail of tears. modern military industrial strength Christianity is going in an opposite direction. the focus is on beliefs, membership, word-studies, supernatural powers and beings. notions of direct experiences of God are dismissed or considered to be reserved for special mythological dead people...and there are essentially no actual practices from Christian history being applied. especially those that are designed to shed light on the interior life. fear and loathing of "inner flames" results in such an unconscious lack of self-examination. but there is no way around the flames...only through.

and... God is like everything we've ever seen.

i think i can see a number of ways it relates. for one, new pain and disability is almost a sure catalyst for losing another worldview. and sometimes the relief we find is not what we thought we needed. we typically can't go back to who we thought we were and how we thought the world worked. dying is clearly the hotter catalyst for change, though. and the greater need for a comforter. and not just for the one who is dying, but for everyone in the blast radius.

yeah. grief comes at every stage of life. like when a worldview dies. we mourn the loss of who we thought we were. but the only way to the other side of it is through it. keep digging. the relief will come.

perhaps "the comforter" is a way of describing some sort of post-grief state. as if Jesus was preparing them to grieve well.

God is like nothing we've ever seen. fun thread Kit

dang edit limit...oh well meant to say... galaxy being gobbled by a black hole or planet being gobbled by a nova

yeah, nice thread. something ive often considered... in my experience, life after twi involved rebooting my relationship with a large portion of language...because it was as if half of language had been infected and deformed, while the other half hid in the shadows of ignorance. Doesn't leave much. Like being offered a choice between darkness and a scab. but if a large portion of twi's doctrines, principles, sayings, and cliches are essentially a crude amalgam of loosely appropriated, re-interpreted, remixed, repackaged and re-labelled fragments of information from other sources, then a large portion of what we heard and read in twi's theologies have its roots in something else. Quite natural that we all start running into the pieces everywhere (and not just in Christianity) after we somehow excommunicate, which then typically immediately reminds us of the previous sting associated with them. This is quite a wall of fire to walk through. thank God for places like the GSC. but it seems as if most any of this language can, in a sense, be redeemed, or somehow reconciled...especially if we can first find some sense of relief for the pain of the original bite...and then we heal more and more words as we become more able to revisit and rediscover those pieces of language again...and especially as we notice the nature of our inner dictionaries. There is another inner book burning, of sorts...whether our whole library burns down in a moment, or we patiently toss page after page into a fire. as cman asked outloud..."will some come back and explain itself to you?" maybe. probably. if there is a burning bush that is never consumed. and not just a long time ago, far far away. but right here, right now. we are fields of fire.

maybe ask a baby covered in napalm or a fly being eaten by a spider or a galaxy being gobbled by a nova or a tyrant being stripped of power or a disembodied voice screaming from the shadows of an dead old house regardless, i like how st. ambrose put it...something like "its hell all the way to hell, and heaven all the way to heaven."

i like the way the thread spreads out...and how there is usually someone around who is good at keeping it attached to the main vein. im personally devoted to some sense of a developed and developing body of fundamentals. i assume most everyone else is, too. fundamentalism is also used to name a particular waves of christian, muslim and other religious experience. imho, most of the time, in most circles, the word 'fundamentalism' is used mostly non-constructively. but it can be used and useful as a word to describe a large and valid aspect of all religious life and history.

i liked how you used "integrate" so much in your post, Steve. almost cant say or read enough about all this...integration, integral, integrity. reminds me of sunesis and synthesis. hints of reconciliation and redemption. ... and optics do seem quite amazing in all this. truly a living metaphor for useful contradictions. and speaking of integration...imho, another related contradiction worth integrating involves noticing how we notice things that happen when our eyelids are closed. including sleep. and not only how our eyeballs process the light coming through our eyelids, but the way we see thought, memory, imagination, dream, vision, revelation...where what is happening behind the eyes...in the heart, mind and body---now appears to be happening before us again, and even all around us. as if our sense of "i" has somehow shifted, or moved, or maybe turned around...or even inside out. i do believe this touches some rich core aspects of Christian writing and life that are perhaps among the most neglected in modern times. like how, TWI and offshoots, as well as many of TWI's "parents and cousins," have more or less demonized the inner life...except for a few authorized forms, like the stuff about "tongues" and "revelation manifestations" and all the renewed mind retemory and positive thinking stuff. but this was more about controlling than simply noticing well. or simply witnessing. sometimes i think we misread the capacity of relative sizes...sometimes as if "cant be that important if it is in such a small place." or as if God can only talk to us from somewhere outside of our bodies. that sort of thing. wonderfully made, indeed.

thanks, Geisha thought i would retrace my steps to find out where i first heard it. probably here: and then here: in my search i also came across this blog entry which seemed to touch the topic of this thread: Abbot's blog "A Finger Pointing at the Moon" there is a similar saying: "Don't mistake the map for the territory."