sirguessalot

which was obviously not much ...or he would have taught something a bit more practical and useful and instead of a sinner grasping for a future heaven he would have been a saint marching into our present day hells scholar or not...this distinction is like night and day he drowned in the very waters that the real teachers swim in

he DID teach us (by word and example) to dismiss the majority of over 2 thousand years of very very very (did i say "very?") diverse christian and jewish thought and experience AND PRACTICE typical of many preachers of modern times...he villified (and taught us to villify and avoid) the values of MOST ALL tradition and lineage ...which was obvious, seeing how his life and theology and practices were contrary to most all of them for example? did vpw ever teach anyone about the wisdom of "the desert fathers" of christianity? and why did he go to india? had he ever honestly studied indian philosophies and theologies without prejudice before trying to convert them? (most christians dont anyway...the names and words are too long or something...and they have more holy books to wade through anyway) so vpws maps and models and concepts convinced a lot of people to stop being selfish and wasted and join his culture... ...what did vpw ever actually teach us TO DO for peace on earth and good will towards all? "Jesus suffered and died for us so we dont have to" is not so clearly stated in the bible...and makes jesus a scapegoat ...not an example to imitate. seems jesus himself was "a doormat for jesus"...as were most all the rest of the authors of the old and new testaments... does anyone know how many buddhists have been killed for their faith in history? what does that prove? Why didnt vpw teach us of the words and deeds of the hundreds and hudnreds of christian martyrs and saints and elders of history? because they lived in a catholic culture? and spoke a catholic language? ...seems it was catholics who killed most of them anyway perhaps because doing so would contradict his lifestyle, theology and pfal metaphysics. besides, the full 2 millenia of christian history is way way way (did i say "way?") too diverse to be reduced to some monolithic condemnations, anyway. was he aware (and if so...did he make us aware) of the 500 years of interfaith cooperation that created europe's first hospitals...where the dying themselves were treated as "guru" was he aware (and if so...did he make us aware) of the very honest, practical and open way the quakers did fellowship and friendship? Where they excelled at developing forms of inquiry and community actual dialogue (as opposed to pfal version of tongues) hemay have threw away 3000 books but he also seemed to dismiss the other 3 billion as well :blink:

some of what im reading here reminds me of Aleph-Bet Yoga

wonderful thread...playing in the fields of inter-subjectivity... has me wondering how all these directly felt channels of oral transmission compare to what is felt or heard or seen while reading, writing, typing, hypertexting ...singing...dancing...kissing....spitting...whatnot

seems to me the prosperity gospel, religious and otherwise, is a very big part what invited the current economic situation. and it seems to be happening every four generations or so regardless of the religious languages of the land yet it also seems as if some form of relatively radical devotion to some form of post-materialist lifestyle is a hallmark of all transformative monastic movements of history ...as if the deep authenticity of religious movements form in the wake of such unchosen wilderness experiences ...that is, before they are linguistically hijacked once the desolate conditions are forgotten and as if our most profoundly transformative experiences of God are most likely to occur in moments of awe and radical fortunate grace... ...and when things fall utterly and hopelessly apart either way...like both birth and death...they tend to hit us out of nowhere and enlighten us quite against our will even demonstrating for us if we are paying attention at all... ...how out of the failure and collapse of an order ...arises a higher order came across this somewhere once...

very valuable points about antagonism, ham some of my most relevant learning/healing/transformation has come from the other 2 millenia of christian experience i found covered in thinnest snow from the "desert fathers" of Christianity to the Ars Moriendi to guys like Frere Roger has been like trading "God as seen by childlike adults" for "God as seen by adultlike children"

as my manner is a large part of my transformation in the wake of my baptism in disillusionment involved turning completely around and diving directly into the very oceans that pfal/vpw/twi and ilk teach us to suspect, mock, scorn, reject and otherwise try to convert, contort, twist or avoid which includes ...1/2 millenia or so of protestant experience, history, doctrine, practice, writing, art, literature, humor, etc... ...2 millenia or so of judeo-christian experience, history, doctrine, practice, writing, art, literature, humor, etc... ...most all strands of jewish experience, history, doctrine, practice, writing, art, literature, humor, etc... ...most all strands of any religious experience, experience, history, doctrine, practice, writing, art, literature, humor, etc... ...most any strand of historic, scientific, psychological, philosophical, metaphysical, mystical experience, history, doctrine, practice, writing, art, literature, humor, etc... so i morphed from peeking through someone's tiny keyhole at God to becoming small enough to simply walk through any hole as if it were a wide open door becoming free to notice, taste, touch, feel, think ...to be curious, specific and kind and its been a baptism of baptisms in streams of sobering possibilities and awesome realities as if God is already always on all sides of all doors where one need not be lost and adrift simply for entering the water thanks for asking Twinky

for what its worth... as a follower of Christ...ive studied, worked and practiced with a variety of monks, nuns, rabbis, priests, ministers, pastors, chaplains and more in recent years (and not just strip-mall/cornfield preachers either, but leader and elders who represent their various judeo-christian lineages and traditions quite well) ...and NONE of them would agree or condone the kind of "praying for heathens" and such being addressed and demonstrated here. most all of them were interested in finding out how to renew and refresh and compare their own understanding of scripture and relationship with God and Christ via the mature, reasonable, real, practical, and compassionate forms of dialogue that EACH of the lineages had to offer to the whole group. seems most every branch of the judeo-christian tree of history has a welath of practical, time-tested, reliable, simple, rational habit-forming methods of dialogue that can serve to elevate just about any conversation to a level worth calling Christlike. but just as an experienced plumber knows when someone is not a plumber (though the non-plumber themselves may not know how much they dont know about plumbing) its quite clear when the opposite of such mature dialogue is happening to a conversation along with your very good questions, OAK another sincere and enduring question that often comes up for me... ...how might we find a way to help improve the quality of dialogue in an environment where not all are capable or interested in doing such a thing?

to add for what its worth i think/feel/believe/wonder if that "the harlot" is also as ultimately innocent in the eyes of God as the world is that would bury her in a pile of rocks in spite of the smorgasborde of crimes and that the voice of ambiguity is a specific angel with a specific message but as an angel among a choir...necessary, but not sufficient odd...how with the rise of post-modernity over the past century this historically marginalized voice of ambiguity went mainstream for the first time the gift was a capacity for radical universal social and civil inclusion but as each "the angels" seemed to point out...every gift has a liability and each liability is also an opportunity to learn and be rewarded and while the liabilities of post-modern ambiguity are specific but also essentially rooted in the same as the liabilities of any perspective ...the illusion of being final

sorry Geisha seems i am as poor a writer as you are a reader when i said i got a sense of "i dont understand what you are saying...therefore you must be delusional and in error" i was NOT referring to how i respond to that which is mysterious but how most people seem to respond to that which is mysterious like... he dont understand her...so she must be ____ she dont understand him...so he must be ____ we dont understand them...so they must be ____ etc... i would go as far as to put it near the root of much human conflict ...including this little tiff are you implying that you will stop personally harrassing me with false humor, sarcastic insults, vile rhetoric, spastic disinformation, and sloppy social skills if i recant and join your group? or that some will stop reacting in general if i recant and join your/their group? :blink: if so.. then No but if there is anything i can do that will help you stop...i am all ears

for the record... i, for one, love the Bible. it is my most sacred text in life, and will likely be til the day i die ...and i feel the book of Job is amazingly rich and widely misunderstood...and there is much that i could say about that book that will likely be aggressively rejected by many other christians ...and i love the God of the Bible...as i have come to understand Him (and Love) ...and i also consider my self to be a devoted follower of Christ...as i have come to understand such but the overall sense i get from some reactions to expressions of more unitive and nondual perspectives of God, Christ and the Bible is "i dont understand what you are saying...therefore you must be delusional and in error" well...i wish i knew how to respond to that in a productive way but i dont...so i guess the rapid stream of misunderstandings will keep piling up ... dww, i'll try to find em...but ive seen ancient Hindu scripture and art that depicts divinity as a half-male/half-female ...amazingly similar to the Gemini Cocktails artwork you posted

glad to hear, dww..and thanks again for all the threads and open inquiry for what its worth... it was never about Humpty breaking ...but falling and it seems weve been counting with Zeros for about as long as we've been playing with wheels and fire ... that said...in an attempt to rerail my hypertextual self i'll throw in that a part of "the whore" seems to represent this, our inevitable eventual predictable period of radical global exploitation and bastardization of ALL languages, religions, traditions, art, literature, etc... where we become lost in the flotsam and jetsam of discourse in the wake of a severe period of fragmentation of meaning-making where we find ourselves a million different ways historically disconnected from historic authenticity and lineage i dunno, perhaps "the whore" speaks english american regardless, a significant and complicated archetype in an already troublesome book of books of books as antithesis is followed by synthesis i thank God this post-modern deconstruction precedes reconstruction have a happy hopeful new year all +ODD

this thread really is rich with wide open questions littered with koans and riddles for answers to lap and splash against there are general notions in the arts of dying ...both modern and ancient hospice, griefwork and midwifery that from the collapse of an order rises a higher order and there is always a collapse as there is always a higher order in this light redemption, healing and salvation is possible before, during and after loss

and truly sorry if you feel i have interrupted any of your threads, DWW ...i dont want to be rude...i can take it and Tom, truly sorry for my personality type and for providing you with such an abundant stack of sillinesses to correct i do forgive you for your personality type and your equally silly stack of presumptions, assumptions and misplaced personal references ...i couldnt possibly keep up with them either judging by your response...it seems that what i have written makes no sense to you it seems obvious to me that we dont learn, speak or communicate via all the same rules though i am not sure what either of us can do about that right now which is ok with me at least i hope you enjoy the humor you found in it all even more...i hope the humor is real perhaps humpty knows what i mean i dunno ... and not that the line-for-line back and forth copy/paste quoting cant be done or that it cant be somewhat of an effective way to discover what is meant i just honestly dont have the time or energy or interest to respond in kind and will likely bow out altogether whenever someone goes that way with me ... btw, though i almost dont want to mention this ...we'll see i guess but someone might appreciate knowing that i simply assumed most anyone who was reading here was either familiar with what happens when the seventh seal on the book of life is opened by the Lamb in The Revelation of Christ...yada yada yada ...or would at least know how to find it if they were interested Rev 8:1 one interesting point of comparison how in many many contemplative traditions, Christian and otherwise it generally takes the body/mind about a half an hour of sitting in silent practice to get "grounded" or otherwise settle into a "spiritual state of mind" ...or whatever one wants to call it i find it a sad truth...how most of us these days cant be quiet, be still, or stop thinking for a minute let alone a half hour...or for 9 days...or for 40 days...or more ...like so many of the crazy ancients who wrote all that stuff honestly...how does any of us know what they were talking about if we havent had the same experiences they were writing about?

i dunno...a rant even though we may not like the z-word..its just a word but it seems that even if you leave out every doctrine in the universe and hold a small patch of judeo-christian doctrines "God" and "Spirit" is very often described as being very "zeroish" without form invisible likened to wind and air and breath "the whole ghost" the deep always already everywhere timeless eternal witness simple and obvious yet mysterious and enigmatic causal clear evident ultimately fathomless higher than the highest lower than the lowest closer than the closest farther than the farthest infinitely inward and outward from here always speaking yet always silent God has no opposite to put on the mind of Christ is to take "God's perspective" is to take a perspective of such radical clarity and spacious gracious love Formlessness gives us a lot of space to defrag in all the big and little ways we do not only is this our original and final perspective it is always already constantly "on" and "open" like a door that never closes to rest and relax and simply witness and behold the face of God is to feel and experience how absolutely soaking wet we are with the "Spirit of God" both inside and out no, not valueless for lacking value.... but valueless for being unmeasureable and abundantly free to think that the God is somewhere else or somehow separate from us or smaller than or missing from ALL THIS HERE NOW is a form heresy and a blasphemy against "the one whole Spirit" because we are like fish who dont know we are wet and suffer on the wrong side of the eye of a needle ... i mean...what happens when final seal is opened in the throneroom of God?

hi Lindy nice to bump again regarding location or place seems to my me... for orthodoxy and protestantism and such... "heaven is somewhere else some other time for me and my kind" for reason and such... "there is no such mythical otherworldly heaven to be found so if there is a heaven...this is IT and IT is All there is to find" for gnostics and such... "IT is NOT heaven... heaven is not an it to be found" for certain rabbis, priests, prophets and others... "heaven is all here...all now All is in All"

to add.. i can imagine how both subjective and objective explorations of "zero" and "one" can be useful as one kind of "alpha and omega" or "north and south" of life's practices and experiences such as how... objectively, zeroness and oneness might be explored through gazing through microscopes, telescopes and even our visual imagination ..such as when we read or write about God (as a non-it/he/she/object) and spirit and space and math IT is zero? Is zero an It? What is it? subjectively, zeroness might be explored through contemplation, meditation, inquiry, therapy, friendship or any act/non-act of "settling in the witness of zero" as the ground for examining one's own self-sense I am zero? Am i zero? Who am I? WE are zero? Are we Zero? Who are we? in any case, zeroness seems some final step before collapsing into nonduality/unity not sufficient, but neccesary but like all steps...we often sit there nearly a lifetime...cultures sit in them for many generations

hello to you, tom. a delight to cross paths again and thanks for those sacred words of wonderland and for your rich offerings... this struck me.. "The only absolute that holds true is that they all contradict in part; therefore non is true." or perhaps even... an absolute that seems to hold true is that they all contradict in part, therefore non is ALSO true. imagine if "God" and "God's view" are at least simply constantly always aready ultimately ALL? which includes any and all zeronesses and onenesses so zero can also be seen as one one can also be seen as zero and opposites are not as opposite as they seem motion is not quite motion stillness is not quite stillness location is not quite location and all this emptiness all this illusion of form all these contradictions conflicts and paradoxes that are confounded and compounded and embedded and passed along are not only seen as simple misunderstandings and misperceptions but useful as cardinal signs, if you will orienting coordinates for navigating all this truth ...in spite of the words yet because of the words

brilliantwonderful reminds me of universals like mudras hand gestures and the general universal human significance of commandments in both tens and twos and ones and other ten-headed dragons...such as the enneagram original way of being digital, perhaps which is even, balanced united and divided, simple and complicated able to hold handfuls of opposing truths and goodnesses which is perhaps why all those unforgettable heros of zero of the axial age (such as abraham, moses, buddha ...and most famous and significant of all perhaps...jesus) found it hard to miss these our original/sacred/divine instruments of measurement (the ones we are still currently using to type these words) while wandering half dead and alone for so long in the deserts and wildernesses and such when they were mostly naked and had nothing and met God and lived and such their "day of the lord" :blink:

hm another way to put "it" perhaps...you tell me seems zero is also love the ONE home we never left all embracing all excepting all inclusive all perspectival universal timeless CLEAR light of truth and great integrity all "darkness" ...all light always already has been is now and always already will be broadband so impartial as to be worth being called sacred and divine for being so invincible so enduring and so obvious and its within this vast choiceless Witness in which/whom we are all absofreakinglutely mindblowingly SOAKING WET all of us all of us all of us forever our bodies our organs our brains our minds our hearts our feelings our wishes our memories our thoughts our dreams our visions our words our languages our sufferings our pains our wounds our sins our desires our griefs our joys our sorrows our angers our significances our relationships our egos and while our ego would like to tell us otherwise we are all (including the above list of parts) already always united with/in God simply for being a body of waves in face of The ocean of Spirit for being trees in a Forest of Gardens and it is by this simple radical seat and position north, south, east or west where "God plants his a$s" ...which is quite like nowhere and everywhere all at once obviously a lonely place but for fearing the reaper neither orthodoxy nor protestantism nor reason are able to touch/hold/taste/handle/feel this big/little gem ...at least gnosticism gets about half of it even though they/we are all always already FULLY INCLUDED in this here now zero love god view seat assumption everywhere forever whatever anyway our egos go there every night once the dreams have faded and its the ego's final destination in its one wild life all this really is old old old news to our planet...discovered by those who died and suffered a lot more than us in history as it seems most every one of earth's ancient wisdom traditions developed words and languages for "it" ...typically through some form of a "book for dying" perhaps some here are just trying to point at "it" in "greasespot"

wild guess, mostly i guess hunter-gatherer overlaps with early nomadic herders

a few more things worth considering... 1) the judeo-christian account of the emergence of humanity (i.e. the book of Genesis in the modern Bible) most-likely has a very strong ethnocentric filter on it. In other words...it is NOT a tale of the whole planet-wide human race...although the writers at the time may have thought so. And there are other people's and cultures and histories that are OUTSIDE of the biblical geneological date-set. To avoid these in all theological consideration is to look at the history of man/God/religion through a very very tiny pinhole...and reduces the value of the Bible about the same amount. 2) i have often thought of the story of Cain and Abel as an early expression of the clash of Agrarian society versus Hunter-Gatherer society. The hunter-gathers (Abel) were "blessed by God at the time" because they honored what they killed and their lifestyle was generally sustainable and did not deforest the world. The agrarians (Cain) were not "blessed by God at the time" because their lifestyle generally caused desertification. Of course, this is a very broad generalization...because neither hunter-gather or agrarian are wholly good or evil. But the general relationship patterns between the two societies certainly seems clear. The story of Cain and Abel is very much like the story of European Colonists and Native Americans. For some reason, the so-called civilized agrarian group mistakenly thinks the hunter-gatherers are "doing nothing with the land," and see no reason why they should be so blessed for being so "lazy." And the native blood spilled all over the soil of this country never stops speaking. Much like revenge and grief for violence will keep hold of an entire nation for generations, keeping them angry and at war with each other. Call it karma, call it nature...but the blood of ALL injustice seeps back into our lives. Quite a curse. Millions of people building cities on top of bloody ground are never going to find rest or peace until there is some authentic atonement. "oh, that was hundreds of years ago" is like saying "i am not my brother's keeper." ...many are going to wish they had some of that "wisdom of the natives" when the systems come crashing down. 3) Offspring is not as much about bloodline...as it is about those who inherit a worldview, and lifestyle practices. Not merely my body, but also the shape of my worldview is passed on via language and culture. 4) as for Mel...i cant help but think that some form the "order of Mel" emerged/emerges on any continent...in any time. The Buddha would be another i would consider "after the order of Mel."

these verses come to mind... where i read all the "he"s as "God" as "the great integrity" and the "manifestedly unmanifest" and "many-named unnamable" and such Proverbs 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: Job 22:14 Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven. Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

ive offered this batch of cookies around here before seems to speak to this thread...i guess we'll see how it spills again this time ...perhaps as a way to point at how opposites may compliment, sowing universal peace...yada yada speaking generally of views it seems that we have many parts that develop through stages or otherwise "unfolding along lines" and all of our parts also develop through stages together in collective waves quite a field of daisies blowing in the wind but one part of us that develops through stages (both individually and collectively) is our view..which can also be described as things like... ...our faith ...our perspective ...our philosophy ...our theology ...our belief ...our godview ...our worldview etc.. regardless, some of the common stages (both personally and culturally) can be described/identified thus... + 1st person focus - i-me-my...beauty and meaning and significance...magic egos...belief in the power of personal wishing and wanting...the divine is described as mostly a parental figure who meets MY needs... culturally...the biggest ego rules ...survival of the fittest...god-kings, gangland, lord of the flies, mafia, tyranny, all our isolated narcissisms, etc..."is it good or bad for ME?" this stage is discernable regardless of religious-language set, or period of history reminds me of how we are in the springs of our lives + 2nd person focus - we-us-our...goodness...mythic culture...belief in the power of a shared ...the divine is described as mostly familial...via storyline/script/slogan/cliche/saying culturally...the one true pure story rules...shared story/ideal is more important than any individual...orthodoxy, religion, cults, fan clubs, friendship, marriage, groupthink, teamwork, race and family heritage, etc..."selfishness is wrong"..."friend or foe?"..."good or bad for US?" this stage is also discernable regardless of religious-language set, or period of history reminds me of how we are in the summers of our lives + 3rd person focus - it-this-he/she...truth....rational evidence, logic...belief in the power to test and prove and DISprove...the divine is in a matter of fact... culturally....excellence and experts and merit and success rules...utility, proof and evidence ...business, work, science, etc..."myth, story, metaphor and subjectivity is futile" this stage is also discernable regardless of language set, or period of history reminds me of how we are in the autumns of our lives + 4th person focus - relativity, pluralism, social...contextual flexibility...belief in the power to dismantle our own ego and language...the divine is understand as ambiguous but also personal and unique...the last bastion of dualistic worldviews...the process of language, interpretation and meaning-finding becomes less conventional, less solid and less self-assured and less absolute... culturally...civil rights and equality...where information and communication abound...but "selfishness, groups, and formal/conventional systems" are often avoided and suppressed... this stage is also discernable regardless of language set, or period of history reminds me of how we are in the winters of our lives... and while each stage is a mini-death of sorts this stage can also be described as "death" also known as "enlightenment at gunpoint" and "the coming of the lord" + 5th person focus - integration of complexity and simplicity...unity/nonduality...belief in (at least) the value inherent in all of the above four perspectives...the divine has no opposite...dismantling the ego is futile... culturally...reminds me of sanctuary, monastary, respite, hospice, hospitality, hospital, midwifery, contemplative community, monastic devotion and service, capacity for interreligious and interdisciplinary, free and able to "taste touch etc..." this is also discernable regardless of language set, or period of history so on..so forth each new stage arises in response to the inherent limits (and disfunction) of previous stages so each stage also brings an new important lesson ...so important a lesson...that when the beneficial values of earlier stages are somehow excluded from fuller development...those are the parts of us that sit there and haunt us from our shadows example...some experience an extreme suppression of "magic thinking" in our earliest years...leaving us unable to find meaning, or be positive and wishful in our adult years. On the other hand, some experience an extreme rewarding of "magic thinking" in our earliest years...which is also called "being spoiled"...leading to unrealistic and unreasonable adults and while all 4 views are always becoming more possible to us all the time (like 4 horses always revving to ride everywhere and inside) we naturally tend to want to favor one view over all the others during our path of development, and if the impression of that one view is deep enough we may even spend most of our adult life mostly there rejecting the rest, and developing a "cave" of sorts embedding and solidifying our view more and more as if ... as "i" become more than we or it...we enter in subjective fantasy as "we" become more than i or it...we enter a cult as "it" becomes more than i or we...we stay outside of our very own selves and such .... regardless highly valuable for deeper more authentic religious/spiritual/doctrinal type discussion, activity, whatever is the capacity to assume that our view of "God" (or "the one true ultimate whatever") does change radically ... multiple times in life as if life for EVERYONE is a process of being pushed/pulled through some "series of radical but necessary humiliations" as if this simple assumption/permission empowers us to accept a much wider bandwidth of "data" on the table of discourse in this very impartial universal sense we are all innocent bystanders simply witnessing our own mostly helpless choiceless crashing through this universe leaping from from rung to rung from womb to tomb ... anyway...i enjoy reading your mutterings and offerings, dww full of gems the responses on this thread are interesting ...all gems...genuine i just hope that my crude attempt even comes close to touching your intent for this thread hohoho +ODD now watch me edit this doodad til the timer runs out i love/hate writing typing

funny...as i type, there is a bottle of australian wine called "woop woop" on my countertop...which means "neither here nor there"... among other things which also reminds me of "neti neti," "via negativa," and many other contemplative arts ... a few chaordic felt-typed-thoughts for this fire: there seem many theories concepts-maps-models-theologies regarding formlessness just as there are many practices-disciplines-behaviors-arts-acts regarding formlessness but ultimately, what both are merely aiming at is beyond both theology and practice though both help us become accident prone to a direct felt experience of formless awareness where "being spiritual" was the same as "playing dead" and "playing dead" was the "milk" of "spiritual discipline" offering "tastes of eternity" and "heaven" and "nirvana" and "bliss" to come as some ancients used to say "die before you die, so that when you die, you will not die" when zero is no longer a separate concept/object but felt and experienced as the original and eternal essence of your very self in which all the other objects are arising (thoughts, dreams, senses, emotions, cells, organs, etc...) where atheism may be correct about some important facts but dead wrong about the value of those facts such was "medicine" for when "medicine" failed which it so often did/does/will ... but MERE formless awareness practice can be a trap (such as with John the Baptist and his disciples, or the ascetics Buddha learned from and then taught) just as pure science and reason can be a trap (linear, non-linear, and otherwise) there seems to be many theories concepts maps models theologies regarding formlessness NOT as the pinnacle of achievement, or graduation but rather as an eternal GROUND and BEGINNING ...an initiation of the nondual marriage of both form and formlessness as well as other opposing notions ...agency and communion ...ascent and descent ...the one and the many ...order and chaos ...absolute and relative as if formless awareness ("i am zero") acts as "the most fertile soil" for a much more radically diverse awareness of the abundance, fullness, wholeness (holiness) and unity of form/s where the inevitability of paradox is no longer experienced as confounding and disturbing... but as necessary, useful...perhaps even to the point of being liberating and delightful like the cross, the tao, a number...the symbol is not a map of the territory ...but more of a compass and instrument for navigation...as orienting coordinates ... i really liked this... reminds me of this