Tom Strange

I hear you nandon! I'd be interested if RumRunner (or any of the others we have around here that are knowledgable about the earth) has any ideas on deforestation and it's effects on the environment...

OM... you've been around a long time... do you have any recollection or documentation as to the when, the why, the how tithing/giving became law? ...and what percentages were dictated?

Big difference dude... in case you haven't noticed, I'm trying not to respond to you because it's just a derail and I think this is an important thread... if you want to talk about that other stuff start a new topic on 'spin doctoring' and 'brainwashing'... I'll happily engage you there.

Over on John Juedes site there's a page called The bondage of the law of tithing (you may wish to read it)... there's a couple of passages that are kind of what I'm looking for: We've all heard these things before... does anyone have any documentation for them? ...and then of course for the percentages that were associated with these rants?And since it will probably be brought up that Juedes is a 'spin doctor' here's his spin on giving: That's a spin I can get on board with... and that's very, very close to the way "giving" was presented to me by the special folks who were the WOWs who first witnessed to and taught me... Along the way something got twisted... when? how? why?

Regardless... maybe "TRUTH NEEDS NO DEFENSE" is a true statement... heck, I believe it is, however I might have phrased it "truth needs no argument" because truth is what it is... there's no arguing it... And maybe, just maybe "truth needs no defense" is as solid a statement as there can be... maybe, just maybe... if TWI is spending so much time "defending" and "arguing"... ...well... maybe that's just an indication of how much "truth" they represent... So much has been said at this site about how folks have "hung onto the truth that they were taught" how they "didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater"... IMHO there was truth there all along, the greater percentage of it in folks hearts... but as TWI grew more and more, the percentage of truth TWI represented shrank and shrank... in direct proportion to the percentage of bullwinkle increasing...

Thanks WN, that's a good start... 1996, I was thinking it was creeping in back in the 80's but maybe it wasn't 'official'... does anyone recall the tape numbers, or articles in the Way Rag? ...letters from HQ?

On the contrary... I have a great sense of humor (just ask me!) Additionally, I didn't say I disagreed with your idea, just the way you present it... callously. As to John Juedes, while I don't think I'd go so far as to call him a "spin doctor" (a lable that could be attributed to many, but I assume you assign for it's negative connotation)... of course they're his opinions and ideas and "take" on things... that's why I stated that they were suggestions and explanations for things... and they, of course, are his viewpoint... his views on cults (and specifically TWI) have been a help to many and I'm sure will help many more... there's information and suggestions at his site that can be gleaned... and (surprise) they're not pro-PFAL or pro-TWI... (but then neither am I)

In a discussion recently with a friend TWI's policy on Tithing came up. As we were discussing it, we began to wonder when and how they came up with their tithe percentages... and also, what exactly was TWI's official definition/policy of a tithe. The first thing that I ever heard or was taught in TWI was to abundantly share, that is "to give freely not of necessity, for God loveth a cheerful giver"... but it seems that as time went on TWI didn't feel like we were 'cheerful' enough... and rather than look at what they might do to help the increase in their followers lives, they looked at what they might be able to dictate to the masses to make them give more. I always thought that "tithing" was part of Mosaic Law... that it had no place in the Grace administration... that Jesus only referred to it a couple of times because he was living under Mosaic Law at the time... I always thought that the modern practice of tithing was a result of organized religions invoking a tax on their followers because they weren't receiving enough to afford the lifestyle that they wanted to live or thought they should be living... and (like TWI) without a thought as to what they could or should be doing to 'feed their flock' to enable them to give more "cheerfully"... Specifically, does anyone have any idea (and documentation would be great) when specifically TWI started presenting the idea that specific, ever increasing, percentages were required of followers? That is, when it OFFICIALLY changed from 10% to 15%, did it switch to 20%, and what is it currently- and, ESPECIALLY, what official staffers made it crystal clear- as in on tape or newsletter- that it was OFFICIALLY no longer 10%?

For any of you who have recently (or not so recently) left TWI Dr. John Juedes has a page at his site called Recovery from The Way International. I'll admit to not reading them thoroughly, but at first glance the articles do address a lot of issues that may be weighing on your heart and give some good suggestions and explanations on how to cope with some of the issues that you may or may not be going through. Some of the topics on the site are: "What's Wrong with the Church?" -- Ex-Wayers commonly distrust and condemn the Christian Church, unknowingly spurning a place of refuge and playing into the hands of the Enemy. "What's Wrong with Denominations?" -- People criticize denominations, even though they don't understand their true origin, power and place in God's plan. "What Do I Do Now That I've Left?" -- and -- "Open Letter to Ex-Followers of TWI" -- Practical tips on how to speed your recovery now that you've left TWI. "What Do Ex-Members Do?" -- Leaving a cult like TWI is important. But what is the next (and just as important) step? "Helping Loved Ones Leave TWI" -- You know TWI is wrong, but your loved one is still involved. How can you help them to see the truth? ******* As to your "sense of loss" (which I'm now interpreting as 'sense of lost time'... well, it is what it is. I struggled with that (mostly in the business world) also as I saw those who were younger than me in positions 'above' me not because they were more qualified but because they had been at it longer... This may not mirror what you're feeling but the fact is that those years are gone and I've found that if I just "got on with it" that it generally took care of itself... what I mean is that as time goes by (post TWI) many of the good qualities I'd developed while in TWI were what came to set me apart from others who hadn't "lost" the time like I had (but had squandered it)... remember I said developed, because I feel I possessed most if not all of those qualities when I went in... It's natural to feel that you've got to "make up for lost time", it really is... if I think back on when I was going through it, it's kind of like a cartoon runner starting a race... at first there's a big start that results in the runner staying in place 'spinning his wheels' while everyone else moves ahead of him, then he gains traction a little at a time and starts catching up... then he steadily moves up and finally passes the rest in the race like they were standing still, leaving them behind... at least it happened for me that way... and (as I hope I've communicated) it can happen for you... ******** OM, your callousness never ceases to amaze me.

I already told ya everything I know (nothing)... I think RumRunner has given you a number of clues to look at if you're inclined to still do so after reading his posts. But I think it would be a futile effort on your part. What I mean is, you'll gain a lot more knowledge but no answers. So if gaining knowledge is your goal then go for it. The reason I say there are 'no answers' is for the same reasons RumRunner said: there are so many variables in action here and even those "in the field" don't know how much they effect the equation... And we all know that when that is the case, you can focus on the effect of a few negative variables while ignoring some of the others and postulate that "a+b=c" and have half the folks line up behind you to say "he is right, he is good!"... So... knock yourself out (if that's your desire), personally I'm of the belief that the earth is a living, breathing thing... constantly evolving... should we attempt to be better stewards? sure, I don't think that's unreasonable... do we need to lessen our dependence on oil? sure we do... The earth is very resilient, personally I'm more worried about the effects of deforestation...

I don't know... some of it is clearly slight of hand (he even shows you how on some)... but the rest.... he's really amazing... I put the Tivo in slo-mo and still can't see how he does stuff... out in the middle of parks, in the middle of streets... if you want to see some of his stuff, there's some clips on you tube... and his show is on Wednesdays on A&E...

BB: you're such a baaaad girl!

Doing what? (is that the restaurant on the top of the spire in Las Vegas?)

thank you sweet little talking doll... can we get a chorus of koombayaa around here?

Why is the toilet seat in a "Women's" restroom wet? (ya can't blame that on us!) Seems like you women need to help each other out in the cleanliness and etiquette departments... You don't see these kind of things happening in a "Men's" restroom... :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: I'm always surprised at the horror stories I hear about women's restrooms... but I really shouldn't be, when I bartended we used to flip a coin to see who would clean "their" restroom... loser lost (really lost)!

Did any of you watch that "Science of Baseball" show? Nothing new... it just explained the whoe sabermetrics thing...

no chit! on the news today a lady had two identical thermometers in a back yard... one in the shade, one in the sun... on one 106, on the other 126... I went out to clean the inside of my windshield, not only did the stuff evaporate almost as soon as I sprayed it on, I dang near burnt mah hayund!

aw heck... I'll just post the whole dang song... cuz if you know it, you know it... nowutahmeen? (if you aren't familiar with this song... it is really beautiful) High on the sacred mountain Up the seven thousand stairs In the golden light of autumn There was magic in the air The clouds surrounded the summit The wind blew strong and cold Among the silent temples And the writing carved in gold Somewhere in my instincts The primitive took hold I stood at the top of the mountain And China sang to me In the peaceful haze of harvest time A song of eternity If you raise your hands to heaven You will live a hundred years I stood there like a mystic Lost in the atmosphere The clouds were suddenly parted For a moment I could see The patterns of the landscape Reaching to the eastern sea I looked upon a presence Spanning forty centuries I stood at the top of the mountain And China sang to me In the peaceful haze of harvest time A song of eternity I thought of time and distance The hardships of history I heard the hope and the hunger When China sang to me... When China sang to me

Would one be considered to be out of fellowship if they didn't follow the recommended schedule for oil change? ...what if I used the evil synthetic oil? Could I take advantage of it's 'extra milage'?

heck ILB... it'll all keep unfolding for you like the petals on a rose when it's blooming... it doesn't happen all at once, TWI was (just about) your entire life and being- that's how they wanted it and that's how they made it... ...and that's how they keep you from leaving and get people to come back... there is a gap there but as you go along it gets filled with wonderous things... Trust me on this one...

I was all ready to embrace the movie (haven't seen it)... but what I've heard is that you can line up just as many experts from one side as the other to agree or disagree with the 'science' in this movie... That being said, we do need to lessen our dependence on foreign oil, that cannot be argued...

yeah hiway... but sometimes I sure wonder! ...we just gave up 9 to the BloJays in the bottom of the 4th... homeboy Vernon Wells came up with the bases loaded and you just knew... our pitcher even did the duck and cover... I'm sure glad they're in Toronto and I bet they are too... on TV today they had two identical thermometers in a back yard, one in the shade, one in the sun... one read 106 the other 126... yeah, I really am motivated to go see a game in that... but after the sun goes down it cools off some... when you see the live temps on the weather at 10:20, it's still 93 with a heat index of 97... sure glad I don't live in Indonesia... can't even go to the beach!

I haven't heard of it... I can't tell if it's TWI or the DaVinci code or what! (but I did sign up... so I can get more spam I suppose)

congratulations you guys... I guess that means I walked away 26 years ago...

yeah dreamer... it's still hot as he11!!! myseestorEx10: let's dewit! ...there's plenty of places to stay around you right? (you guys can plan it though!)