JoeBeliever

Hey Bobby V! I remember Kathy West and a few others. Many negative things to say about that first year in residence at Emporia. I just hooted and hollered at everyone that first and last year as my nature is. I was up in John Lynn's face and even Pat Lynn's. I soon got a reputation for being a 'bad boy'. Oh well, that's in the past. I am terrible with names after all these years but I remember faces well. There sure were some good coeds at that time and it made us all think about how human people can be...esp leaders. Many of those leaders have had second thoughts about how they were back then. I even got some apologies...how 'bout that...lol. People are people...God is God.

"Joe B: just because you can't spot the trick, it must be spirit manipulation?" Oakspear Oakspear ~ We don't see much by way of spiritual power in this country. But, other countries experience it on a regular basis. You might not have ever been out of Nebraska or maybe you have, I don't know. But, I have rubbed shoulders with international students while in college. And the African students had plenty to talk about. They were so serious about life....why? Because in the Congo or Zaire where they were from they were used to seeing spiritual things. Did you know that they still have 'witch doctors' in their tribes there? And these witch doctors get their respect from others by the 'tricks' they display. And NO...they don't check out books on Magic from the local library, they operate devil spirits to do these 'tricks'. Or should I say more accurately that the devil spirits operate them (?) to do these 'tricks'. It is not about 'sleight of hand' or looking closely enough to spot the trick...it is about devil spirits operating. Like it or not, the truth is about the Devil and his host of devil spirits. David Blaine is trying to normalize devil spirit power in this country as it has been normalized in other countries. The danger of this is that people start seeing that power as sensational and God's power as boring. Then we start seeing people going to Ouija boards and Tarot cards and Wicca as their source of power instead of the true God and souls get lost in the mix. Understand better, now?

I must've posted this on the wrong site. No one here seems to have the least concern on this topic. And NO, I didn't post anything 'tongue in cheek' as someone mentioned. I thought this was a mature site but I guess I'm wrong again. God Bless

First, he calls it 'fearless'. I know that only perfect love casts out fear. [No mention of Jesus Christ in the video, by the way]. Then, he 'wows' innocent people on the street with 'magic', which some of it is not a 'trick' at all but a spiritual manipulation (you would have to watch it yourself to see that), reminiscent of the Advanced class info regarding 'faith healers'. I noticed that he plays his tricks on the emotional types and less educated types...works great for the spirits. They always prey on minds that are less disciplined to the Word. Then, third, he travels the U.S. cuz they are not familiar with devil spirit activities, spiritually, so, it really astounds us. But, later in the video he goes to Haiti and says "Well, to these people, magic is the same as voodoo." and one guy is filmed saying he is has seen people fly around and therefore magic is nothing new to him. Of course! David's magic is the same as voodoo cuz its the same devil spirits that are operating David as they do in Voodoo. As far as perfect love casting out fear so that David is representing 'fearless'...well, I don't see him at hospitals taking out people's woes, ya know? He's doing tricks is all. He's inciting a crowd to believe in him. And he is going all over the world to do it. Just watch the video (e.g. he's getting (building) a following, internationally). He's building a following and its not for money. Well, then, what is it for? Its not that I am obsessed with this...:)--> But, I DO pay attention to what's happening. I have to minister to folks sometimes about this kind of thing. It seems like the whole world has already accepted the 'gay' thing...so what are those devil spirits now turning their attention to? Hmmmm, makes me wonder, ya know?

Doesn't everyone know so OBVIOUSLY that CNN is a propaganda machine slanted towards liberals and against the US machine? Its an ongoing battle between Socialism (i.e. redistribution of wealth among nations) and American Sovierenty (i.e. Capitalism) So, we as Americans are giving up our jobs, our wealth, our high living (compared to the rest of the world) so that everyone else on this planet benefits? But, biblically, the only ones that should and are blessed to benefit are Christians. Because we believe that 'God the Father is our suffiency' and not ourselves. The other nations are not trusting the true God for that and therefore..God decides whether they prosper or not. We should not be arbitrarily giving away what God has blessed us with to nations who do not know or trust Him. Frankly, I am surprised that we are even meddling with the Israeli/Palestinian situation. Remember Jehoshaphat? Geez...

My vote is for David Blaine, the street magician and mind reader....any comments?

Yes it is.

Thanks for the overview. I really appreciate it. Me, I'm thankful for the results I did see and the legitimate things I learned. I'm also thankful I'm free of the organization that would have sucked the life out of me as I sought to be my best for God. It might be unclear if you feel the same way, or if, instead, you meant to say that the horror stories some suffered thru never actually happened. So, that, I'm sure, was the thought behind the pointed question. Rest assured...I feel the same way Wordwolf. Thanks again, Joe

Any clue how to post it without it being so wide anyone? Thanks...appreciate it. Joe

Yes, I know it is a crap storm and I am not proTWI FYI Dot...But, it became that way. Not born that way is what I am suggesting. Heck, what I learned in HS was mostly bogus crap that taught me very little practical living but some of it is useful. :)--> Yes, I guess I wasn't emphatic enough about that. Good ole BG Leonard. I'm glad I knew it at the time though. I didn't mention that I was on crutches at the time and left em in the car to walk to the sprawled out old guy. If God wasn't in it it wouldn't have happened. :)--> The point being was that I was there because of what I learned and believed and it 'worked'. God still got the glory! :)--> I've read some of Raf's work and am looking forward to more of it. It truly is a blessing to see some of this work. Many things I've challenged in my studies but not in that clarity of thought. I thank God its available. Again, I apologize if I generalized. And thanks for stating it here. I agree. Well...that's was a lame analogy I suppose. But, the one that came to mind. I often have thought of myself that way when I know my peace is gone over something. So, I know that the waters are muddy. Nothing derogatory here...I mean we all have the flesh to deal with. I don't think that checking myself and others on this issue has me with my head in the sand. Perhaps the opposite would be the case. I can only speak for what went on in my life. What I saw was plenty wrong. But, I'm not throwing the baby out with bath water either. Bitterness is something akin to poison to the soul of a person Do I sense a slander here? What does this contribute? Are you so angry with the Way's oldest teachings that I am now quilty by association because I have stated something good about my experiences? I certainly have many bad experiences to sound off on but, I choose not to at this point. I have do so in the past but have healed. No profit to bring it up again except where someone has a better doctrine to consider. But, my good personal experiences should have no basis for attack or dismissal. It is these experiences I only bring up because they demonstrate the right things that were taught. Again, I apologize for the directness. It is difficult to bring up things where others harbor hurt feelings without arousing it in them. I wish I were a better writer at times. Our hope of Christ's return where we will know even as we are known is a glorious hope to harbor and that love from God to hold to is so healing for all of us and others around the world.

JoeBeliever wrote: I apologize for what this sounds like...it should be: I know I'm preaching to the choir..but it still should be said again and again until we drive out everyone['s pain who's] still in pain and full of rage over someone else's devilishness. Let God judge that person so we can be free of bitterness.

I remember how I started going to a Way fellowship. I was laid up in a hospital in traction and I read the gospels out of the Gideons Bible that was there in the drawer. And I thought..."wow this Jesus guy went through a lot of ****! I guess I don't have it that bad." But, I was looking for answers, too. So a verse in Luke kept popping back up in my mind and I was driven to understand why this was happening so the thought came to me why don't I go to one of these Twigs that I had been turning down invites to. So I went. Then teacher came out and it being her second live teaching ever started out her teaching with that exact verse from Luke. I don't even remember the rest of that teaching because I was so flabbergasted since I had told no one about that verse popping in my mind cuz they would have thought me crazy! I got goosebumps and another thought popped into my mind at that moment "well, you've been searching for me and here is the place". That's what 'hooked' me. :D--> NewLeafBetterTree In my own experience when I took the PFAL class in 1980 I was 23 yrs old. Groovy days, I must admit! But,I must have taken a different one than others because if I remember correctly the first four sessions were taught so that I could read the Bible for myself and understand it better than I did before. It was empatically stated "Chapter and Verse please". These sessions were to give us many tools needed to question the rest of the sessions. I know I did. I had a blast questioning them. The law of believing as taught had to be somewhat bogus because I had a fear of getting murdered after dark whenever I was outside and it never happened. (Later suddenly delivered of that without much effort on my part. I don't even remember praying anything but the Lord's prayer at that time.) Ha! That's all I was bothered by....mostly I learned how to pray...believe. Wow...who was even teaching this at the time? No one I had access to anyway...Dr always pointed out books where he go the stuff so I never felt he was taking credit or conning me into anything. Before even taking the class I spoke in tongues the first time simply by reading The New Dynamic Church on it and praying to God all day at a park on a summer day. At session 12 I felt funny about SIT on queue and I always questioned that one. shellon I think that this statement raises the point that most of us were very busy in life. We wanted it all to be 100% correct from the start cuz we didn't have time to really do any serious questioning/answering work on it ourselves. So we just took it all in as Gospel truth. My experience was that it was always presented as 'check it yourself'. After all, VPW went from Trinitarian to One God on his own by checking it out. That sort of won my trust and formed an opinion that he was no charlatan. I even took the time to read his doctoral thesis on the failure of the overseas missions represented by his denomination. He was blacklisted and therefore an underdog after that thesis which he presented before his superiors and consequently defrocked because of it (He said)But I checked the dates and they match his story. And because of this he was very careful with the ministry as it grew. He saw the potential for tyranny happening. He insisted, for instance, that no centralized address book of Twig coordinators was to be kept at HQ. He wished for no central control...but control only on the Twig/Branch level where the people had the say-so on things. HQ was only to have a 'supportive' role..such as the classes and bookstore. This is why LCM's loyalty letter was so 'devilish'. It was a power grab from HQ to control the TC's. And it was so obvious to most..can't say all unfortunately. To say that TWI brainwashed people and conned and manipulated in the early days is unfounded and this is why. It couldn't happen with so many individuals involved to pull something like that off. I say that when the staff were afraid to speak up so as not to lose their comfy jobs with benefits is when things went unchecked by most. Doctor feared this would happen. When I went into the Corps I did so not for my glory (although that was a motivation for others) but to have the time to continue questioning and fine-tuning my knowledge. I had access to the library which carried almost everything by anybody who ever wrote about the Bible or Denominations and also had every Sunday teaching and every Way Corps research paper written. That proved easily enough to me that 'questioning' was encouraged greatly by the ministry and body of leaders. By my last year in the Corps (1987) they had pretty much shut down the Research Dept because of the blatant errors of Athletes of the Spirit. Someone obviously was speaking up...but too little too late seems to be the best comment on that. I also had the privilege of sitting through Dr's Advance Class, as 'transcriptor' several times and the overwhelming encouragement by him to search the scriptures to improve on his work was there. Perhaps viewing it so often made it more obvious to me. The one blatant problem I saw was in the idea of 'excellor sessions' which were hit and miss because no one is going to manifest power by rote or because its on the class schedule, but I digress. Later, I had the experience of ministering instant healing to an elderly man who had a heart attack while riding his moped. I simply approached him with a heart of compassion and used Jesus' name as I was taught in the Advanced Class. If VPW was a charlatan later is another fact but, that charlatan's teaching saved that man's life for my hands were there but so was our Lord because of it. So I thank God that I had the time to study the Word in an indepth fashion. The biggest problems I saw arising was as old as the hills. We are all individuals. If you have 3 people witness an accident...you'll have 3 different versions of what happened. I believe that is true here. I loved the ROA and other gatherings....not so much for the family atmosphere although I loved that too. But, for all the times spent just sitting with a total stranger by a camp fire or somewhere and totally empathize with them or them with me and we could pray about something together with our own love and believing to God the Father directly. Awesome! Not to say that doesn't happen in other ministries...thank God it does. But for me.....Who taught me to do that? Dr Wierwille did anyways. Who taught me it was "The Word, the Word, the Word; and nothing but the Word"? That doesn't sound like the rhetoric one gets from those trying to con people. Now, if Dr was a Bible salesman...perhaps I would have walked away! Besides...we don't seem to complain much when our TV sets are oozing out brainwash techniques to buy their products or to vote for them or the teachers hounding our kids to nag the parents over 2nd-hand smoke...I certainly am not discounting some of the awful things that has happened to people. I feel it deeply being a fellow member of the One Body of Christ. Thank God that our hearts can be healed. But,I think we are over thinking some of this and its mostly tainted with our hurt. People cause us hurt don't they? Not whole ministries or whole groups. Individual people hurt us...whoever they are. The original Way Tree was set up much like our political system in the US is supposed to work. For the people, by the people, of the people. The people are what screwed up the Way. Dr's original thoughts were to 'protect' the people so those that were closest to the Trustees had the responsibility to confront and reprove. In principle that should work but when people are afraid to then it stops working right. People are human...they are going to be afraid...Every single congregation of believers ever and presently in operation all have the same potential to screw up and as history proves...it ALWAYS happens. Why? That is the real question and the real answer is because the devil is 'the god of this world' who blinds the minds. We have forgotten to blame Satan and we have played right into his hand by blaming people. "...for we wrestle not against flesh and blood" It is a challenge not to let the Adversary get us playing on the flesh and blood level. Yes, people that hurt other people should be held accountable. Again, I truly feel for the hurt people have gone through. Let's face it...we are getting hurt all the time by people...whether its the ministry of people or people at work or in society...its still people. And we grow cautious and wiser through experience. But, we needn't be defeated by that. Remember it says "lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you". This is what is our enemy now...bitterness. God through Jesus Christ went through great pains to teach us about 'forgiveness'. There is no marriage or relationship today anywhere that would survive without forgiveness. We are practicing it all the time. Can we excercise our spiritual right and command to forgive these individuals from our past? So, that we might move on in love and sensitivity towards others? I know I'm preaching to the choir..but it still should be said again and again until we drive out everyone whose still in pain and full of rage over someone else's devilishness. Let God judge that person so we can be free of bitterness. I also took a little class by Walter Cummins called the Renewed Mind. I remember in that class a little exercise that was taught..."On Guard" and 'prove all things; hold fast to that which is good'. Or are we holding fast to those things that are evil? Sure many things needed to be rightly divided about VPs classes but at least it was the 'best' being taught at the time by people who 'questioned' their denominational teaching. This is why we were taught that we were "the best"..."that God has in our day and time" is the rest of that quote. and it was because no one had so far attempted what Dr did...question. I think of it like this. Einstein spent his life coming up with E=MC squared. Now a younger person can learn that and spend his yrs building further upon that. Why can't we hold fast to that which is good and build on it with all thankfulness that we got something accurate to build upon? Its the same teaching on prayer I learned that works to get me through the hurt that was received not only from the ministry but from all the other hurts that the rest of the world seems to have no qualms about dishing out...thank God. I know I have rambled here...but I too have been stirred by these postings. Every joint supplieth...I see people like leaking cisterns here with water mixed with the mud of anger and bitterness. As a joint or member I am stirred to help encourage you to take Father's prescription to clean us by just going to the pure waters of the fountainhead to rid ourselves of the bitter waters.

Here's what I've encountered since moving here to Charleston, Ill to be near my family. First I checked for any believers that were known to live here but that was a dead end. Then, I 'attended' a few Churches which I didn't much care for. I dunno, they seemed typically religious like, going through the Sunday morning motions. A couple of yrs went by and I was going crazy! I made it to a splinter fellowship up by Chicago and literally sobbed when we opened with the usual singing. I didn't realize how much I was missing the sweetness and tenderness available in a 'loving' group of believers. Then, I heard about a Church that was expanding from a little town nearby but they were needing to use the High School auditorium here because of all of their growth. So, I went to one and thoroughly enjoyed it. I think it was mainly cuz I was more humbled and my heart was turned towards God more than I was mentally 'rightly dividing' their meeting.. I studied the background of the Church and met with the Pastor. He keeps himself readily accessible to people. I've offered some help but he balked a little when I mentioned The Way schooling I've had esp on the issue of Jesus not being God. I walked tactifully with that one yet planted a seed, I think. But, his literature straightly says that they don't want to get involved in splitting hairs on doctrine. Overall, the Pastor does most all of the teachings and he keeps it on righteousness in Christ and stays plugged into things outside his own Church to bring into it. He has a men's meeting on Wednesdays at noon. We went through that best selling book that's out The Purpose Driven Life and had open discussion along the way (where I have been quite outspoken). I am at the place though where I don't mind getting involved there but I am still wanting to find a fellowship that has manifestations. Since I have no real responsibilities or real roots here (I'm single) I'm looking at a move somewhere. Maybe someone here can recommend a place. I am looking closely at St Petersburg area. Any replies would be greatly appreciated.

I haven't been here long enough to see what you're talking about Catcup but I wanted to respond to something Imbus mentioned.. I remember feeling like all that I worked for in the Way was for nothing. Turned out to be a great starting point for me. Ha! That brought me back to what I vividly remembered about the Father calling me to Him. And then the Hope. etc... I soon realized just how fragile and insane this world is. THat's why we needed the Saviour in the first place. Every human endeavor seems to fail eventually. Because we can't produce on earth what He has promised to freely give us later. Even during the first century the Church 'groaned and travailed' waiting for that time of full redemption... I think this site serves to present words of Hope and Truth more often than not. And serves the Body in that way. [This message was edited by JoeBeliever on March 20, 2004 at 6:19.]

Radar...sounds nice there. Our weather in Central Illinois is doing chin-ups trying to break through the Spring barrier!