J0nny Ling0

Seems like you have forgotten that incorruptible seed is exactly that, incorruptible. Oh, but you don't believe he was born again of that incorruptible seed. I just think that it is hard for we mortals to know with a certainty what God himself will do later. Edited to be nicer. :)

My children are pretty happy with the knowledge of God's Word that we have shared with them over the years. Neither of our two older kids are involved with any church or fellowship, but they do believe in God and our Lord Jesus, and are thankful to know things like; They can absolutely trust God to answer their prayers, to know that they are righteous through JC our Lord and that they "can do all things through Christ which strengthens them". Oh, there are lots an lots of things that they have incorporated into their lives which my wife and I have taught them, and things that they learned in "Chil Fel" (children's fellowship), and etc. They have lots of wonderful memories of those days. And, now that they are older, and have asked that question; "How come we aren't part of The Way anymore?", I just told them flat out that The Way, like countless other well meaning organizations, became corrupt to the point of hurting people rather than helping them. The love of money, power, sex, greed, and all of that stuff that seems to be so common to Mankind became more important than God's Word, and so, it was time for us to go, but Craig kicked us out before we left. And they have been happy with that explanation. They are great kids and doing very well. I have to say though, I am certainly thankful that our kids never experienced The Way after 1989, which seems to be a whole different story all together! Gawd!!All of that screaming, shouting and witch hunting and judgmental condemnation would have been very horrible for them to see. And the micro-management that I have read about by those who endured TWI II? My kids may well have witnessed their dear Daddy going to jail decking some punk FC for being rude to my wife, or something. But, since we could see that all of that was coming, we got ourselves kicked out and have been having fun trusting God as we have re-adjusted our lives to living "not within The Way". It's been a fine time, with all of life's usual frustrations and challenges, as well as victories and successes. Certainly there were unique "post Way" adjustments to make at the age of 33 y.o., but I just figured that things certainly could have been worse for my wife and two young kids. At least we had good health and enough youth left to get things rolling again in the realm of working and earning money and such. Life has been a fine time for we "Lingos" so far, and we are thankful for the good things we have learned, and for the great things God has done for us. Our Tribe did in fact increase with the birth of two more sons who are now 11 and 15 years old, and they are fine also, thanks be to God... P.S. Why is there a "heart" icon to the left of the thread title on the main "About The Way" page? Wassup wit dat? Jes curious....

I am glad that I bothered to argue this point here on "forgiveness". I have received numerous pms, mostly from women and a couple of guys who have been blessed to hear my point of view on the subject. They won't post on the subject though, because they are afraid of being jumped by Rascal and others. So, I don't mind being argued with if the fruit of the argument results in people learning that it is okay to forgive and move on. You see, the contrast that they see is very glaring, and helps them to see that compassion, love, and forgiveness, is the preferable High Road to deliverance. They also see that forgiveness is not synonymous with "excusing the wrong doers and giving them a pass". So to me, it was worth the time spent here on this thread...

Yeah, you are right! He does want us to be unified as a Family! :)

Cool Chef! I don't want to think of you "not being around anymore"! But, I have thought of at least something along these lines. I have always thought that my grave stone should read: "Hang in their kids! Christ is comin' back and we'll meet again some day! I loved you as best I could!" Dad

I don't think God is a Union member...

Sell it on E-Bay? No doubt some cult expert might be interested...

Whatever dude. You can do what you want.

Ephesians 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: I was taught by the Bible to put away those emotions, not "this very man". Furthermore, those emotions are to be put away with all malice. Look, it's not about giving The Way "a pass" as some of you here insist I am trying to do. It is not about "making excuses" for those who may have hurt you in the past. It is not about "condemning victims". It is not about "being too hard on the man who falls". What it is about is what is best for our heads and what to do with it when we have been hurt. And God supplies a wonderful avenue for healing through our Lord Jesus Christ. When we look unto He who endured all, despising the shame, yet forgiving his tormentors, we can have victory in Jesus, our Savior for ever. Like a lamb he was led to the slaughter, yet he opened not his mouth. When those burly soldiers put a sack on his head and punched him saying "prophesy if you are the son of God! Which one of us hit you?!", how do you think he felt, being the only Innocent One? We can attain victory in our tribulations because he did it for us! He led the way! Because our Big Brother handled these extreme indignations, tortures, mockeries, humiliations, and outright excruciating pain with dignity, so can we! And to think that he could have called upon 12 legions of angels (72,000) to come and rescue him from that horrible scene. But he didn't. He hung in there for you and for me. For EVERYBODY in this whole wide world. And at the very end, or very close to it, he asked our Heavenly Father to "forgive them for they know not what they do". Now, you may not be a Christian, and so these words won't mean anything. But for those of you who are Christian, the acts and love of our Lord Jesus Christ can be very very healing indeed, specifically in getting over any hurt any other human or organization of humans has put you through. To forgive is good. To not forgive is not good, not healthy...

Yet he truly was innocent, and we are far from it. And I doubt any of us ever went through what he did for you and I. All of the sins of the world laid on his back, plus the agony of the torture? The total aloneness. No friends, Peter couldn't even stay awake with him while he prayed in The Garden for on hour? No, I don't think we anybody else has been in his league...

I wonder what it was like, when they took Jesus' hands and bound them? I wonder what it was like when they took a heavy hammer and began to pound steel spikes through his hands. Think of those metacarpal bones being smashed to smithereens as those huge nails went through his hands and into the wood of the cross. Think about how those huge steel spikes were driven through the top of the instep of his feet and into the wood of The Cross. Have you ever rolled your ankle and experienced a sprained ankle that swelled up like a soft ball? Yes, most of you have, including me, and we KNOW how much it hurts. And yet Jesus was NAILED like a common criminal to a tree! Steel through flesh and bone! AFTER he was whipped, beaten, ridiculed, spit upon, and accused of being a LIAR, which he was not. Yeah, they crucified him all right. Killed him. Murdered him. And yet he asked his Heavenly Father to forgive them before he died. NOw that is a HERO I can look up to and emulate. How about you? NONE of you have ever experienced the humiliation that our LORD went through, yet some of you choose to judge and ridicule your enemies. Well, I'd rather hang with the Big Guy, and try and follow His footsteps, and NOT yours... P.S. I notice that there is no comment on the "Amish forgiveness situation". No surprise, I guess....

Aha! Thanx!

Not even if it's a porch? Waysider, sorry man, I am slow. I didn't get that. Did you Excathedra? For the record Rascal, I would never recommend that anyone go back to that hell hole. I know you weren't talking to me, but I do want you to know that I would never go back, nor would I recommend anyone being part of twi. Maybe out of morbid curiosity, if I happened to be in the area for some unknown reason, I might drive by, and maybe sign in for a look around. But no doubt, like you said, once my name came up, they'd sick the WayGB on me or something. I mean, look what they did to Doug McMullen when he wanted to visit the way woods. Had him arrested.

I have a friend from India, who, after all of the big POP/TWI melt down, just continued on. He didn't care that he didn't have copyrighted PFAL materials to continue with. He just taught PFAL live, and would send me e-mails over the years and share of the deliverances the hungry people there were experiencing. My friend is a pure as the driven snow, it seems (I know he has sin nature like all of us), and has lived his life above board and openly before the people in India to whom he ministers. Sometimes, as if he was in a "time warp", he would tell me in personal e-mail letters about "commissioning the WOWs" and things that were so like The Way when he and I were involved in The Way. And all of this many years after The Meltdown. The OUTCOME he and the people there have experienced has been nothing but joy and deliverance for large amounts of people there. I am certain that he has gone beyond PFAL as far as doctrine is concerned, but I can see the roots of The Way in his teachings and sharings. I have read many a letter of testimony about people healed of blindness, lameness, cancer, alcoholism, demon possession, and all kinds of other things. It's like what we all hoped we were going to see on a huge scale when we got involved in The Way, but only saw in "snatches" from time to time. I think that a large difference between Here (The West) and There (India) is that the people there seriously EXPECT to receive from God when they learn that healing and deliverance is available. And I believe (my opinion), that the people over There are far more spiritual minded than we "scientific minded" westerners. They don't seem to be as "bound by logic" as we Westerners. And, there have been many Americans that I know who used to be in The Way, who have gone over to India to spend time with my friend, and have come back full of joyous tales of God's deliverance and Love that they experienced amongst our Indian Christian Brothers and Sisters. The name of Jesus Christ is revered amongst them, and the examples of Jesus in the gospels are expounded upon to a greater degree than with us when we were in The Way. But many of the basic teachings that we learned in PFAL are there, and it has been a blessed "outcome....." Is this "young VPW" ministry going to be the same as my friends? Probably not. But since I don't know this young fella, I am certainly NOT going to judge him and decide that "he is probably going to hurt people." The outcome could very well be different and it could be a blessing to many people.

We are to look unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. That place in Hebrews may not specifically say anything about forgiveness, but we do know that Jesus Christ forgave. And so, if we are to look unto him as an example, the forgiveness is part of it. With this subject being discussed, I got to thinking last night about the Amish in Pennsylvania whose daughters were brutally slain by a mad man. Amazingly, those people found it in their hearts to forgive the man who did that heinous deed, whatever his motives may have been. They attended the funeral of the man who slaughtered their daughters. They offered support to the family of the man who executed the little girls in the school house. And I remember this as well: The main stream media commented numerous times about the Amish people who forgave this awful man for what he did. The mainstream media on the act of forgiveness itself, seemed to be amazed at how these Amish people actually lived their creed as Christians. I was personally humbled by these wonderful people and their ability to forgive, and I think our Nation was humbled and blown away by such an example of compassion and forgiveness. Perhaps we could learn from their amazing example. I hope that God does not send them to Hell for forgiving that man. Do you all remember that incident? Here, from CBS News: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/04/...in2059816.shtml (CBS/AP) In just about any other community, a deadly school shooting would have brought demands from civic leaders for tighter gun laws and better security, and the victims' loved ones would have lashed out at the gunman's family or threatened to sue. But that's not the Amish way. As they struggle with the slayings of five of their children in a one-room schoolhouse, the Amish in this Lancaster County village are turning the other cheek, urging forgiveness of the killer and quietly accepting what comes their way as God's will. "They know their children are going to heaven. They know their children are innocent ... and they know that they will join them in death," said Gertrude Huntington, a Michigan researcher and expert on children in Amish society. "The hurt is very great," Huntington said. "But they don't balance the hurt with hate." In the aftermath of Monday's violence, the Amish are looking inward, relying on themselves and their faith, just as they have for centuries. They hold themselves apart from the modern world, and have as little to do with civil authorities as possible. Amish mourners have been going from home to home for two days to attend viewings for the five victims, all little girls laid out in white dresses made by their families. Such viewings occur almost immediately after the bodies arrive at the parents' homes. Typically, they are so crowded, "if you start crying, you've got to figure out whose shoulder to cry on," said Rita Rhoads, a Mennonite midwife who delivered two of the five girls slain in the attack. At some Amish viewings, upwards of 1,000 to 1,500 people might visit a family's home to pay respects, according to Jack Meyer, 60, a buggy operator in Bird in Hand. Such visits are important, given the lack of e-mail and phone communication, Meyer said. The Amish have also been reaching out to the family of the gunman, Charles Carl Roberts IV, 32, who committed suicide during the attack. "The Amish neighbor came that very night, around 9 o'clock in the evening, and offered forgiveness to the family," Dwight Lefever, a Roberts family spokesman, told CBS News national correspondent Byron Pitts. "I hope they stay around here and they'll have a lot of friends and a lot of support," Daniel Esh, a 57-year-old Amish artist and woodworker whose three grandnephews were inside the school during the attack, said of the Roberts. Huntington, the authority on the Amish, predicted they will be very supportive of the killer and his wife, "because judgment is in God's hands: `Judge not, that ye be not judged.'" Roberts stormed the school and shot 10 girls before turning the gun on himself. Investigators said Roberts, who brought lubricating jelly and plastic restraints with him, may have been planning to sexually assault the Amish girls. Roberts revealed to his family in notes he left behind and in a phone call from inside the West Nickel Mines Amish School that he was tormented by memories of molesting two young relatives 20 years ago. A deputy county coroner on Wednesday described a gruesome scene at the school, with blood on every desk, every window broken and the body of a girl slumped beneath the chalkboard, below a sign that read "Visitors Brighten People's Days." Roberts' body was face-down next to the teacher's desk. "It was horrible. I don't know how else to explain it," said Amanda Shelley, a deputy coroner in Lancaster County. The West Nickel Mines School is boarded up now. Plywood can't disguise what happened. And school kids can't forget. A 13-year old Amish boy who survived Monday's rampage told his parents "I could never ever walk inside that school again," reported Pitts, who added that church elders decided they will almost certainly tear it down. Funerals for four of the victims — Naomi Rose Ebersole, 7; Marian Fisher, 13; Mary Liz Miller, 8; and her sister Lena Miller, 7 — are scheduled for Thursday at three homes. The funeral for the fifth girl, Anna Mae Stoltzfus, 12, is Friday. About 300 to 500 people are expected at each funeral, said Philip W. Furman, an undertaker. The church-led services typically last about two hours before mourners travel in horse-drawn buggies to a cemetery for a short graveside service. In keeping with custom, the Amish use simple wooden caskets — narrow at the head and feet and wider in the middle. An Amish girl is typically laid to rest in a white dress, a cape, and a white prayer-covering on her head, Furman said. Five other girls remained hospitalized — three in critical condition and two in serious condition. They ranged in age from 6 to 13. Enos Miller, the grandfather of the two Miller sisters, was with both of the girls when they died. He was out walking near the schoolhouse before dawn Wednesday — he said he couldn't sleep — when he was asked by a reporter for WGAL-TV whether he had forgiven the gunman. "In my heart, yes," he said, explaining it was "through God's help."

And besides all of that, Jesus was tortured and persecuted way beyond anything any of us have ever gone through, and he in fact was innocent of any wrong doing. He was perfect, we are not. His humiliation far exceeds any humiliation any of us have ever gone through. And so, we should forgive as He did. We can go round and round all we want, but Jesus forgave those who absolutely hurt him way more than anybody here was hurt. He despised the shame. He did NOT like it at all. Yet, he forgave. We are to "look unto him, the author and finisher of our faith". For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin....

Oh come on! That was a fine photo of an open pit barbecue! One of the finest "Texas style" barbecue meals you could imagine! It's classic rustic dining my man, and, surely, you already know that.... Don't you remember that ROA motto: "Good food, good fellowship, good Word"? No doubt the open pit barbecue thing was something for people to enjoy! Good food is always welcome! Especially if "the word" isn't so good...

That was for Rascal when she vowed to be like Jesus, turning over the tables of the money changers, using whips and such. Yeah, I can just see Rascal with her whips and storm trooper boots kicking over tables and that. Hard not to roll my eyes, ya know? Of course I see it! I have said it over and over again that VPW blew it and used and abused people! It's just that I think that forgiveness and moving on is way more productive that "stewing over the past"! But I guess you don't see that when I say it...sigh...

Ham and WS. You both make good points. I guess that it seems to me that a certain few here seem to be at the boiling point all of the time, and their whistling seems to go beyond a venting or a warning, but rather a self destructive and continual rant. But, you are right about people's time tables, although some of these time tables seem to be suspect to me, because the "perpetual heat" to the waterpot does in fact seem to get folks "steaming mad" all over again, even after they have cooled down and have been healing. But thank you for your understanding, and I will do my best to recognize peoples' needs to "steam whistle......." Peace to you too my Brothers... JL

Sighhhh... But thanks Ham for your acknowledgment of this: I didn't take advantage of it. I didn't even know it was going on until the end, and I was aghast when an "offer" came my way. I've told this story before, but, here: I went to HQ to pick up a truck I purchased during the Rock. This was after POP, but before the "Pledge Of Allegiance To Craig" letter. When I checked, and my name was looked up, I was then greeted as "Rev" so and so, and the red carpet treatment began. I was given a nice place to stay during my weekend visit. They put me up in John Linder's "Unit" while he and his Fam were away fishing after the Rock. I was also told that I would be given a "guest buddy" that would "take care of things for me" around the house (unit). That first evening, a very pretty Italian American gal knocked on the door and came in with an awesome pasta dish for supper. She told me that she was there to take care of any particular things that might be needed. I was flattered and felt that this was a very nice thing for them to do. When I got back in later that evening, she was there. When I went to bed, she later came and knocked on the door to my room. I was in my skivvies, and answered the door a crack but was hiding behind the door. She was in a cute "nighty", and she was very beautiful. She asked me if I wanted a full body massage. I was was pretty confused and really shook up. I told her no. She told me that she was staying the room across the hall, and that if I needed anything, anything at all, I could wake her. Then, showing my confusion, I told her abruptly that no I was fine, and that I didn't need anything at all. She was very embarrassed at that point and ashamed. She knew I was married, for I had told her earlier when she'd brought the pasta over. I went to bed, angry, confused, but also half interested in the sex that was offered, but not at all willing to break the vow I had made to God and my wife. It was a very strange time. And so, I didn't rise to the bait. But I often thought afterward as the duplicity within the ministry came to light, that had I taken up the "offering" that was presented, that it would have been used against me as "emotional black mail". What was weirdest about the whole thing was that it was obvious to me that it had been "set up that way" by somebody that was way "higher up". No, I was not caught up in that at all. And I do recognize that it existed and that it was bad. I was kicked out of The Way a short time after that. All I can say here is that we were all players, and we all made our decisions to be with The Way during those years and that we would be far better off (IMO) forgiving and moving on. May God bless and heal those who were hurt the worst, and may he heal those who who were hurt to a lesser degree. May God bless and take care of that girl who had been there to be at my "service". Hopefully, she realized the error of her ways also, but I think she did when she was rebuffed that night. Hope it carried her through. And for those who were the Perps, well, all I can say is that I can forgive them, but, when they have to answer to God, it'll be His decision as to what to do with them, not mine. I am fallible, He is not, and I am glad that in my fallibility, I am not the one who has to judge. I don't think any of us are infallible enough to judge someones Eternity. AND, may young VPW be a person who wants to help and heal and not hurt. Time will tell...

Ham, the hornets are a relative few. Even here, I have received a good number of pm's on this subject alone where people here agree with me. And they weren't e-mails from Johniam, Mike, White Dove, or Oldieman. Rather, they were from folks who rarely post here, but do in fact read the posts. From people who are afraid to post opinions that mirror my own, because they don't want to be ridiculed and flamed as they see happen to people whose opinions reflect their own. And then of course, whether you like it or not, there are in fact many many groups of ex-Way people fellowshipping together, being happy, and not "stirred up like a bunch of hornets" like you say that you are. People who don't even know about the GSC, nor could care less. I have one friend who came here a few times but never posted. He refers to this place as a "vomitorium". Like I said, you hornets are a relative few. But I am glad to be able to post so that lurkers like the ones I have heard back on this issue have the opportunity to see another side of the arguments. I have recently heard via pm's from people concerning the "A Note On Forgiveness" thread also. From folks who dared not post there, I guess, because they didn't want the queen bee and the hornets nest chasing them...

I have a grudge, but I ain't a gonna letchoo put yer car in it!

Crucify him! Crucify him!

You guys seem to be consumed by a sickness, which can only be alleviated by the deliverance that comes with FORGIVENESS and compassion, which you don't seem to have the capacity to understand. And so, have fun with your consumption! JL

Yes, it may seem the same, but how do you know that his heart is the same? That he wants to hurt people as you assume? I mean, if we don't KNOW, then we don't know...