JustThinking

Is it any wonder they limited enrollment to wayfers? Could you imagine that class being offered on the web today? :-)

I believe Steve! is correct. Also, depending on where this site is hosted, deleting your posts might not completely erase them anyway as they are probably backed up. Not much truly dies on the 'net.

All, I had started a thread some time ago asking if anyone had compiled a "one stop shop" on VPW, TWI, etc. This thread may not be exhaustive but it is excellent in what it presents. Kudos to all of you who contributed without over-the-top emotion. Not that you may not have it but it didn't stop a great deal of valuable factual information being presented here. It sounds like a good book or thesis paper in the works. Or discovery material for a class action lawsuit. ;-) Just kidding. Is this another case of TWI acting completely within the letter of the law? From other threads, I understand BGL didn't copywrite his work, for example so VPW was free to make off with it.

Hmm...one was an obnoxious crook and the other smiled while he did the same things. Can't say a jury would care about the nice public persona. I'm sure the RC priests we've read about were viewed as kindly leaders of God's people. Heck, they typically looked like the sweet grandfatherly type. IMO, that is more devious in that it works better to ensnare the innocent.

I can appreciate Galen's POV even though I've had close ones hurt by others too. It was very well said. Galen, I didn't take any justification of their behavior from your post at all. I took it as simply recognizing that your experience was different. Personally, I never met VPW so have no strong, direct feelings either way. However, I see a lot of evidence of his actions and treat them emotionally like I would anyone who has done great harm. It comes as part of my compassion for my fellow man. (Wow, that's a phrase that TWI had stamped out of my vocabulary) Joseph Stalin and co. had most of my family executed. Do I dwell on it? No. Does it affect me? Yes, in some ways. Would I put a bullet in his head if he were alive? Probably. Even though he too was "just a sinner." (Just kidding about that last bit!) For those who may read into things, I am NOT advocating violence. Just expressing a strong feeling. I think people like that deserve justice not revenge. How satisfying it was to see Saddam Hussein, for example, cowering in a hole. Beats making him a glorious figure in death. IMO, if LCM did these things, my prayer would be that justice would be served.

Dot, When were you a wow in PA?

Lightside, I've seen these types of miracles but never at TWI. At a festival called Jesus 77 (and 79, etc.) some amazing things took place right in front of me. One man's leg grew two inches and regained strength after he was water baptized and prayed for. It was just like the man with the wilted arm. It was obviously thinner than the other and useless. When he stood up they both looked the same and he couldn't stop praising God. It's something I will NEVER forget.

Umm...aren't there some standards in the Bible for people who are "overseers" and "overseers of overseers?" At a minimum, if VPW weren't meeting those requirements, why wasn't he removed from his position? I believe in these cases God DOES make a distinction beyond just "being a sinner." It disqualifies you from being in that position until you clean up your act. Or so VPW AND LCM taught. So, IMO, whether you fall on either side of the debate, TWI still said one thing and did another.

Kit, 23 years!? Are you kidding? Was that simply you being a wayfer or did you just not have any time left after a bazillion ministry events?

Tom, Quote: --------------------- I think that meets the criteria for a miracle. JT said that it had to be undeniable or have no other possible explanation. That doesn?t exist. There is ALWAYS some other possible explanation. And your mind ALWAYS can come up with it. But after a while, when you see enough, or like this woman, it is impressive enough, you just stop doubting it. --------------------- Well said and you are correct. However, I didn't say it had to have no other explanation. It simply had to have been firsthand experience. To me, this is undeniable to a point I would consider reasonable. And what a great story! Thank you so much. Nice Christmas present for me. (As if I'm not already super blessed!)

Simon, Oh, that's bad. The lyrics, that is. Hope your son's playing is better. M&A, I wouldn't wait by the post box for that invitation to join Way Productions. ;-)

A few years back, I started taking less classes and more family vacations. My relationship with God AND my family is much better. What a surprise! ;-)

Socks, I was looking to compare peoples experiences in and out of TWI. When I asked about miracles in TWI, the responses were few. To be fair to TWI, it seemed reasonable to get a read on our time outside as well. So far not a big difference but the day is young.

Radar & Simon, Stop! Now I'm going to have them both stuck in my head all day! :-) Rrr... If either or both of you have young kids, I hope they get drum sets for the holidays. j/k Ex, That "follow the man of god" song sounds spooky. Glad he didn't need a bio break when they were singing it. ;-)

Watered Garden, How did your doctor react? Just curious. We had a VERY similar experience and the hospital staff was mixed. Some said it had to have been a mistake and others admitted there had been a growth and it was gone. Also, do you still have the x-rays? Not to prove something but to have a great thing to share with another. Just curious.

While Diazbro is right in that it doesn't change TWI's lack of power here, it would be interesting to hear more about BGL's work. It never occurred to me that there were no excellor sessions in the AC or for AC grads. LCM's AC tried to downplay that analogy of "daddy's cookie jar." Short version: LCM said it ended up doing more harm than good in that it's God's prerogative whether he tells us something or not. By the way, is "excellor" a real word? Or is it another wayfer term?

...not too long till midnight for Mr Greasespot. ;-)

Geo, "YMMV?" Help me out on this one.

Didn't the Romans do some of the same things while conquering the world? (Reminds me of a very funny scene in Monty Python's The Life of Brian. "What have the Romans done for us?" A group of local Judeans is listing their complaints against the Romans. One of their members begins to bring up the benefits of serving the Romans and the plan almost falls apart. If you haven't seen it, it's worth the time, IMO. VERY funny)

From the "Miracles in TWI" thread, few people spoke up and recalled "can't be anything but God" miracles. We started with TWI in the past few years but ended it up with anybody, anywhere. The key restriction was that YOU had to have been there to see it. No urban legends, no "I heard this story once" tales. If, and I do say, if we aren't seeing miracles like this, why? It isn't realistic to say that one man can stop God from working so we can't blame your least favorite religious leader. So what is it then? Or are we seeing them?

The books of Acts may or may not be a good standard for the frequency of miracles. It is only 28 chapters and covers decades. Needless to say, only some of the high(and low)lights of the new Christian church are in there. My guess is that not every day was chock full of miracles. Just like every day of Jesus' life may not have included teaching thousands of people. They had to do laundry sometime. Now the amazing nature of them, I'll leave that to the reader. I'm with Oak though. My goal with this thread was to see IF we're seeing them. Not a lot of evidence so far that there are many going on and I'm just in the wrong place.

Galen, Maybe that explains part of it. We were married in the 80s but did have clergy in the state. We weren't even AC grads though. ??? Not that the policy of the day would surprise me though. (Wow, have we wondered a bit from the original topic or what?!)

M&A, I think CC has a point. Mention the police and/or an attorney and many people sober up. Bullies usually hate the light of day. It might also help the next person. Otherwise, you probably showed more restraint that I could muster. The nice thing is you can live without regret for the way you handled your life. It may not be the same for them. Being able to sleep at night is a wonderful thing. One last note, several folks have (maybe as a joke) mentioned TWI or their attorneys reading this. If you have hard feelings against someone, you may want to think twice about writing something that could be taken as a threat. It could come back to haunt you later.

Sadly, my experiences were like Diazbro's. That people cringed when I asked for more information made me even more leery. Having said that, there were several cases where I did witness what I would consider miracles. Only one was connected with TWI. Not exactly the book of Acts is it? It sounds like we did get a least a few who felt they were part of miracle. For that, I'm thankful.

Georgio, I was taught during the 90s that Goliath was hit in the knee. That was a "hot" topic at one point and not heard of again. (At least not recently) Did LCM put that in his foundational class?