JustThinking

Shaz, "They don't listen to what you're saying because they care, but are merely gathering data that they can use to their own advantage." Very well said. Sounds like most of the outreach I saw. "No interest? See ya! Hmm...what were you saying? Oh, right, I didn't care in the first place. Just needed a check and a signature." I guess Exie saw this attitude in it's final form. A complete absence of Godly love. In that case, is it fair to say a human being becomes just a thing? JT

I can't believe I'm about to do this (somewhat defend OM's view) but here goes... Does just (and I say just this one point) VPW being uncomfortable with mixed ethnic marriages make him 100% racist? I'm not sure I'd go that far. In his time (which I believe should be taken into consideration) it was a huge taboo for many, if not most, white people. Rural, primarily white, Ohio farming communities in the 30s probably weren't hotbeds of multiculturalism. That he may have struggled with the idea doesn't surprise me. My guess is many people of his generation had a hard time with the idea of racial integration. Does that make them all racists? Not necessarily. Just struggling to outgrow old, bad ideas. My sister is in a mixed marriage which I thought for sure would kill my father. Or my father would kill him. But... he did come to the wedding and VERY grudgingly accepted the idea. 15 years later and it was no big deal to him. Yes, it took almost that long. And the two of them are really close now. My father grew up in Ohio in a small town like New Knoxville. He also heard that Jews were evil, all blacks were lazy and dumb , etc. It took a lot to outgrow that but he did. It just took a lot of time and patience. Having said that, the other things like Liberty Lobby are pretty bizarro. JT

My take: The Wizard = VPW. He didn't really give anything. People already had it. Dorothy = Mrs. VPW. Little country girl living in a bad dream. Toto = I'll volunteer for this part. He had no say in anything and just got dragged around. That would be me. Or us. Belinda the good witch = Excathedra The wicked witch of the west = Donna? the flying monkeys = Lead monkey is LCM

Juan, I stand corrected. My humble apologies. Exie, OMG, TOOOOO funny! :-) JT

Raf, I'll add my two couples. However, the focus of their marriage counseling was whether it was a good idea to get married to each other. My perception though was that it wasn't done just to discourage them. It was to get them to consider (along with everything else) the potential cultural differences and agree ahead of time on how to handle them. So on a field level, it didn't seem bad IF you were both AC grads. Reaching out to minorities though? Never saw it. JT

Insurgent, I once asked about the very vanilla look of TWI. The response was "black culture" has never really responded to God's Word. It was quite a surprise to me given the rich history of black churches in America. When I asked if playing country music at TWI events in major urban areas was a good idea, I was told "that's what HQ wants us to play." I know lots of minority teens who love "the fiddle." (Said as his eyes roll) This was TWI II but it doesn't sound any different. Same kind of answers to why we don't do music that would appeal to people who aren't white, over 25 and from the midwest. NOOOO interest at all. Just the question made all the other people (all white, over 25 and middle class) uncomfortable. JT

Sunesis, Wow! Some of this was before my time so it's good to know. We heard #11 about Jewish bankers at our Advanced Class. It was run by LCM but still used VPW's video. Not sure which one said it. Also, the Jews and Pope helped to instigate the Civil War. They were in cahoots with the Illuminati according to LCM. (Caution, I don't have my notes so this is an old memory) JT

Juan, Sorry to ruin the moment but I believe it was the lion who had no heart. The tin man had no brain. JT

Lookin' for the redirector... Page 2. It's Mike! Whole lot 'o redirectin' goin' on... TWI II was bad but not my VP! Whole lot 'o redirectin' goin' on... JT

Sunesis said: "VP was a white supremist. He was a member of the Liberty Lobby. The Liberty Lobby is a front in Washington D.C. for America's white supremicst, conspiracy groups. He got their newsletter, the Spotlight, and called into their "hotlines." OM's response: "Mark Lane was a lawyer for Willis Carto, the president of Liberty Lobby. (Hunt v. Liberty Lobby). Mr. Lane is Jewish. I suppose he's a white supremecist as well?" Whole lot 'o redirectin' goin' on... Bring up VPW, switch the topic to their lawyer. Whole lot 'o redirectin' goin' on... JT

From the Public Eye on Liberty Lobby: Founded by Willis Carto: Spotlight Newspaper (Now Defunct - replaced by American Free Press under different management) "brought to you by the former staff of The Spotlight, who are now the publishers." http://www.americanfreepress.net/About_Us/about_us.html Institute for Historical Review (Carto lost control in lawsuit - continues under different management) Journal of Historical Review (Carto lost control in lawsuit - continues under different management) For more background information see: Chip Berlet & Matthew N. Lyons, (2000), Right-Wing Populism in America: Too Close for Comfort, (New York: Guilford). "The Former Liberty Lobby Network In his history of the Liberty Lobby, Mintz argues the group reflects three facets of nativism: racism, conspiracism, and monoculturalism. The John Birch Society trumpets jingoistic patriotism laced with conspiracist allegations that trace back to Robison's book alleging a Illuminati/Freemason conspiracy. Liberty Lobby relies on historic antisemitic sources echoing the Protocols. While still controlled by Liberty Lobby's Carto, Noontide Press reprinted classics by conspiracist antisemites such as Nesta Webster and John Beaty. According to Mintz, Liberty Lobby clearly voices "racist and anti-Semitic beliefs in addition to conspiracism."

OM Quote "I guess that would be true if Dr. Wierwille were asking the corps to take up arms to go to war. Sort of like President Bush asking folks to go to Iraq on the front lines, when he himself never served in that capacity? But how does that compare to Wierwille?" I didn't say that he thought he was literally a military general. Only that he loved the obedience and adulation that generals get. He was not a general. "Did he ask Way Corps folks to do anything he didn't do?" He studied, witnessed, taught, stayed faithful to the word..." Off-topic redirection. JT

Caution: Massive redirection taking place. Argue about Hitler, call this German-bashing, anything. Just don't give a direct answer to the question. Now back to the topic... Did VPW try to incorporate military-type allegiance into a supposedly Christian organization? My feel is YES! Even the name "Way Corps" sounds military. From my dictionary: Corps: A separate branch or department of the armed forces having a specialized function. A tactical unit of ground combat forces between a division and an army commanded by a lieutenant general and composed of two or more divisions and auxiliary service troops. Sounds like the army to me. Wear name tags, special insignias, etc. And the corps corresponds to the "big" devil spirits which were compared to what? Class? Generals! Yes, the corps were God's commanding generals "on the field." (Another military term) Guess that makes him the Supreme Commander? JT

Even if you take them at face value, less harsh is only half of their objection.

George, ROTFLMAO! My boy, I think you've nailed it! JT

Kev, Wouldn't that resume' make him OVERqualified?! ;-) JT

This thread is a follow-on to the one Hills Bro started on "Was your nametag really indicative of your faithfulness to God?" Point 1. VPW seemed to love the idea of military concepts and military discipline. (Except in his own life) Or at least talking about it. Point 2. Many years ago, I heard a tape of him teaching about the Way Corps and how the Marines were supposed to have inspired him to do it. (Vague memories here) Typical of his wanna-be attitude, he was never actually in the Marine Corps. Guess he watched some movies and that was good enough. Point 3. He seemed to use many military analogies such as that stupid "the suggestion of a general is tantamount to an order." I wonder if generals really can manage thousands of people if they're really that careless with their words? (Said as he rolls his eyes) Do you think nametags were his way of putting "stripes" on people like the Army? It seems like he had delusions of being a spiritual Patton. Kind of like the arm chair generals or quarterbacks who never had the guts to play or fight. They just like to pretend. JT

A la quote: "That seemed like such an elusive/fleeting time for me in TWI...it lasted for about 2 mths when I first arrived in 1976 and poof it disappeared as fast as it came. So sad I tried for the next 20 years to recapture that moment. It was never to be again" Great way to put it! I think that's what I tried to do to. Maybe not realizing it till now. Even when I talked to people about TWI, my description of what twig was like was more from my first experience that what it really had become. My great moment lasted about 2 years. Then the "fog years" hit and, well, it was way weird after that. There was never again a time when life at Der Vay was not full of turmoil. Glad to be out of the mess. Thanks for the thought provoking comment. JT

Oldies, Thank you. And I do see some of your points. Internet posting aside, I hope you get as much from it as I did. Thanks for being willing to consider it or at least listening to the suggestion. Hope you have a good weekend also. JT

They will admit in private that the M&A stuff got out of hand. My question is have they called anyone back to apologize? JT

I wonder some times if men have a hard time identifying with a woman's viewpoint in this situation. They can be raised so differently that it's easy for a guy to think "well, I would just say no." It's so much easier for them to do it because it's considered more acceptable. Especially in the timeframe we're discussing. Maybe it's a little easier for women now but in the 70s? Kind of like people putting themselves into different time periods and judging others actions. "Well, I wouldn't have owned slaves, fought in that war", etc. Then add to that the difference in genders and it gets even worse. My suggestion to those like OM would be to print their posts and have the women closest to them read it. Or their mother. Maybe a few women. How about a rape counselor? See how they view it and ask them to tell you why. When you take the time to get their perspective, it can be a real eye-opener. I have had this exact conversation with someone who was molested and it changed my whole way of thinking. JT

Eagle, Friends of mine were apprentice corps in his limb some time ago. They became REALLY weird while there. The husband became very harsh and the wife started wearing enough make-up to make Tammy Faye Baker blush. (No pun intended) Not sure I can pin that one on Harve though. Just happened in his limb. However, the corps do tend to mimic their MOGs. On the upside, I did meet him once at his house while he was still on the field and he was very gracious to me. That's my only first-hand contact with the man. JT

Greek2me, For me, I just don't know if the pronunciation is correct or not. If anyone can recommend a good book for laymen, it would be much appreciated. JT

Martindale Ought to Go Find One Dictionary And Try it.

Is it my imagination or are we saying even their command of ENGLISH wasn't very good?! JT