JustThinking

John, As is traditional, I'll offer you a cup of coffee and a big welcome. It's nice to have you here. Thanks for coming. JT

During the "fog years", many folks heading out the door implied that others were VPs choice not Craig. Usually, it was the former Way leader they were leaving to follow. (Geer, JAL, etc.) Can anyone educate me on what actually happened when Craig got the nod? Was he VPs guy or was it pushed on him?

Def, It just occurred to me that AOS did not have anyone in it who did not have some "seed." One he-man virile believer stud who saves helpless but shapely believer babe. Together, they fight off all those bad "seed boys." No mention of those who are not born again but also not born of the wrong seed. JT

Oldies, I came in during the late 80s and that teaching never came up around me. What I heard matches Dan, nonameplease, etc. Distinctions became more varied under LCM though. It wasn't just in this category. Household vs family vs non-family vs non-household. By the time DaCraig left, it was pretty muddled. The only clear teaching was that TWI was right and everyone else was wrong.

I would rather pinch Exie's cheeks. Oops, did I say that out loud? :=)

In all these pages, did we ever hear from Jeff if the letter was posted at anyone else's request or was it his own idea? If he answered this already, many sorries.

Now, a refund. Pure and simple. Then? A place to serve God for life with people who felt the same way. And a good place to bring my family and friends.

Tom, MJ is right. My best friend is a corporate counsel specializing in this type of issue. If you use a company's resources in any way to do something, invent, compose, etc, they can sue for a share or complete ownership. As to your AIDS cure example, the company owns it. Period. It will be in your employment agreement from day one. Ignoring the law even if you think you're more noble than the next guy still lands you in court. Not that I think hiding a cure for AIDS is morally acceptable but just focusing on the legal stuff here. Did John S. ever sue for wrongful termination? He might have had a case.

Hooner, Someone may need reproof in one area of their life but it wouldn't negate the value of what they share in another area. Kind of stating the obvious, I suppose. Reproof in my family goes by so quickly and it's so not a big deal that we probably don't think about it much. It's always been my impression that in a loving environment, that's the way it should be. Just pointing out an "oops" and be done with it.

WW, Good points and well said. It seems like we already have that to an extent. Thanks for the help. JT

Steve, It seems people here know you. (At least Raffy does) Could you tell me a little about yourself as I came into TWI after VPWs death? Enjoyed your site so far, btw. There is a lot there so it will likely take me some time to get through it.

The scary thing is that guy was some of us at one time. :-( What was I thinking?!

If I recall correctly, most of the "hold harmless" clauses are meaningless in court. They are there simply to assist someone's lawyer in case they get sued or convince the injured to not sue in the first place. For example, some emergency rooms have disclaimers on the wall about the quality of care. They can post anything they like about not being responsible but the law says otherwise. If Momentous were to put someone in harm's way intentionally, I suspect the court would hold them liable regardless of any "contract."

Jim, Holy s**t! Really? I had no idea.

I am a happily former wayfer that hasn't had any experience with spinoffs. I would like an education on how many formed after the VPW death/POP. How many are/were there? I guess there could be many but my impression guess was there were a few "main" ones. Or Maine ones, for that matter. Are they generally similar? Who started the larger splinter groups? Are most started still around? Have any folded? Is Chris G**r still running one? The background on John L**n on another thread brought this to mind. I knew these groups sprang up after POP but didn't know much about where they were or are today.

UH: "I guess this whole subject came up because of the JAL letter that was re-printed." My, we seemed to have wandered a bit, haven't we?

I'm trying to think of any religion with a code of silence that was up to anything good. It's certainly their right but it guarantees I'll never go near it.

WW, I agree completely. No assumptions by his lack of answer. It would have nice to get one though. Oh well, his choice. Thank you for the extra insight.

UH quote: "if Jeff is misrepresenting JAL by printing his letter against his wishes, then shame on him. I somehow think that it was posted with JAL's approval" I have already asked Jeff about this on this thread but got no answer. Disclaimer: I don't know JL or much about him. In fact, I had to ask on this thread for a history on the guy.

Spoiled? Nothing, really. I've gotten to the point in my life where I don't give them that much power. I've always been pretty optimistic person and am again now that I'm out of der veg. Except maybe that midwestern yelling thing. Nah, I didn't like it when I was in so that's the same too. Good question though. I'm looking forward to hearing other answers.

M is- U sing S cripture, H opelessly R eclusive, O hio's O nly M ushroom S ect

Exie, :-) Thanks for a smile. Needed one today. Love you. Mushrooms? I've only been gone for about 18 months so my experience is pretty recent. It was different than the 90s when I left. Less open paranoia. Nope, different approach these days. No, they face the bad information the way they used to face the deprogramming stories. They talk about things more openly with a view to defuse and discredit them. Instead of getting angry they just dismiss it. Besides, if you saw the lawsuits, mass defections, and everything else, you're probably in for life.

my quote: Do you think the word "weird" is a little subjective and vague? PJ's response: "Perhaps, but whatever word that is used will ruffle someone's fur. What's your suggestion for a better word? Perhaps a poll.... 1) f'd up beliefs 2) strange 3) non TWI 4) non-traditional 5) out there 6) sick puppies 7) manson like 8) coolaid drinker beliefs" Well, it depends on what you're trying to say. #4 is probably a safe choice, if that is what you are attempting to convey. Non-traditional is not necessarily dangerous, however. Most would consider being called "weird" more of a personal attack than a researcher's descriptive term. If you want to have your research considered seriously, you may want to use more informational terms. Not picking on you but trying to be helpful. I think you have an interesting idea and would like to see your work considered. I hope you'll keep us updated on when your work will be available. JT

PJ, "1) Does the group have wierd beliefs but doesn't bother other people? If so they are benine (level 1) and should not be of concern." Do you think the word "weird" is a little subjective and vague?

All, Thanks for the info on JAL. Obviously, I have no opinion about him, Momentous or anything else mentioned as I never met the man. In a twisted way, that LCM hated him moves him up a notch in my book. :-) Are JAL's books still available somewhere? I have heard of them but they had been yanked from TWI's bookstore by the time I got there. Some folks still had them until King Loy mandated they be tossed. Heard they were good reading.