diazbro

At a minimum the splinters appear to make excellent decompression chambers for some. This is not to say that thats all they are good for or ,on the opposite side,that they are sufficiently different from TWI to warrant your time and money (if they ask for that). But why not try something that is not derivative of TWI ?

Yes well this is another example of Weirwille histrionics at work. Yea right. He took the burden of learning the "hard way" so us "kids" wouldn't have to. Once I was told that VPW was so right on that he could check out things (one of those things being promiscuity) that for the "average beliver" would be breaking fellowship. So we should be thankful that he was the pioneer for us making sure that we would have answers when we needed them about "any" topic. The most recent plagiarism thread makes me boil when I think that there are still people out there who deify VPW and think that he wasn't "that bad" or maybe because the shared a personal talk with him it was all cool. It wasn't. This guy ripped off others and made a lot of money off of the work and labor of someone else. He never came clean about any of this.

I had heard about the ficitonal names (Johnny Jumpup, et al) but had not heard about the "Canadian Christian Press" thing. What a mindblower. Weirwille had no shame at all. I do recall once in my early Way days asking what other publications were available through the American Christian Press since it sounded to me like a general publishing house for christian publications. I was never told that it was a Way company and worse that it was an organization that published only the "best" works hence its catalogue was so small in comparison. So even back then the deception was there. I simply did not know enough to question it. But those who answered my question were entirely comfortable leaving me with the idea that it was an independent company that published only the cream of the crop.

Do you really think God is going to say to VPW "Well done though good and faithful servant" just because he stole his best material from someone else, passed it off as his own, and made a heap of money under the premise that he was teaching "the word" as it hadn't been since the 1st century church ? Its entirely reasonable that VPW would be examined since he was the key figure in Way history. I suppose that there are those who wish to protect his legacy and perhaps not think of him in a bad light but those with a concern for truth might not be comfortable with that approach. The fact is that in the years since his death there has been considerable information about his "Walk" that strongly suggests that he wasn't as concerned about the "renewed mind" or "putting off the old man nature" as he claimed to be. His sense of entitlement and self-importance outweighed any moral concerns he might have about plagiarism as well as sexual intimidation and abuse. VPW very much wanted the attention he got and for the large part of his existence in TWI he received the adulation and admiration he so craved though he was not open and honest about a great many things including his supposed original research that led to the establishment of TWI which became quite a profitable enterprise. He set himself apart so I don't see any problems with looking at his actions. As far as "color coding" his sins I don't think they have that many colors. BUT ,speaking of colors, I do notice that Weirwille supporters see everything in "shades of gray" when it comes to VPW's behavior but they see only black and white when it comes to the behavior of others.

There a few more things to consider now that we have some consensus that VP did indeed plagiarize which used to be the major blocking point in the past. Some other posters have made these points also so they aren't original but I wanted to post them from point of view. 1) Were someone to publish and sell a book under a different title which contained near identical content to say RTHS then TWI would object to that (assumming they found out about it) and seek to stop it since they own a copyright on that material. So the argument that it doesn't matter who gets the credit would not fly with TWI who would most assuredly seek to stop distribution and lodge a claim of plaigiarism. So TWI would certainly have a problem with that (Even though they don't really have a *moral* right to since VPW lifted from others). Still they own the copyright so they could pursue you and most definitely would espcecially if it made any money. As I recall they published many of those titles under the publishing name of "american christian press" which is very deceptive since it suggests an independent clearinghouse when it was not. It was TWI's vanity press. 2) It is %100 sure that were I to have learned of VPW's plagiarism say in 74 I definitely would have changed my thinking and commitment to TWI. I wouldn't have accepted anything less than a complete explanation as to the extent of it. Also I certainly would have wanted to see the proof before I assummed that it was true. I don't know how anyone can say that knowledge of the wrongdoing would NOT have changed anything. Here is someone claiming to be teaching the word like it hadn't been since the 1st century yet he is lifting from others ? That wouldn't make any sense at all and would call into question VPW's allegations that he came up with all the PFAL material using the bible as his textbook. As stated previously VPW devotees seem to confuse the content of PFAL as a valid substitute for "the word" even when its been proven that even the fundamental teachings such as "the law of believing" don't hold up. So under the mistaken assumption that PFAL is something special they feel it acceptable to ignore the lying and dishonesty in favor of preserving the legend of PFAL and the good feelings they get when they think of the "good ole days". I don't miss being young as much as others might especially those in love with their youth as it relates to TWI. I had some great times and met some cool people but those people get the credit NOT TWI. Thanks but I'd rather be who I am now than suspend reality just to protect my memories of yesteryear. Thats just BSing yourself which is fine but don't expect others to go for it. Remember the Unification Church ? The Reverend Moon outfit ? They had this concept called "divine deception" that permitted ANY type of lying or deception on the part of an agent of the church as long as it involved activity to recruit and/or maintain members. When I hear of former Way folks who willingly excuse behavior in VPW that they wouldn't excuse in their friends or family members I think they too are practicing a form of "divine deception". They are lying to themselves and others by saying that "it doesn't matter if he stole or not". What was it that VPW "Taught" in PFAL about the serpent. "He omitted a word, he added a word". Or the crucifixion ? "What difference does it make if he died on Friday " ? VPW had a totally intolerant attitude towards people who accepted even minor flaws in "logic" yet he himself was guilty of things that would have ended his career had he attempted a thesis at a REAL university. So by VPW's own logic he fails to pass muster. He stole from someone else so when the VPW supporter says "what difference does it make ?" remind him or her of VPW's own statements and attitudes about "the details" and "what difference" they make.

Congratulations. You are heading in the right direction. !! Of course I never said your were an idolator. Just that you *could* jump around saying VPW was like a god (or is a god) to you. Of course that gave you an oppotrunity to derail and misdirect so you took it. But thats standard behavior. Again though I'm encouraged that you admit that about VPW. Its a big step and I mean that.

You have a conscience only when it suits you and only when it facilitates your misdirection. The topic is plagiarism. Why can't you stick to it ? Oh because you know (though you won't admit it) that VPW was a plagiarist though you really,really hate to admit it.

Oldiesman said: Oldiesman your gift for misdirection once again manifests itself. Plagiarism is WRONG. Whether or not you took PFAL or not doesn't mean any thing. I think PFAL was crap you think it was gold but regardless plagiarism is wrong. Stick to that topic and don't try to derail and misdirect with misty eyed trips down memory lane that might make you feel better but do nothing to change the reality that VPW stole the works of others and passed them off as his own. Sorry to point out that your idol was deceptive and guilty of intellectual theft but tough.. Live with it Stick your head and the sand or put your hands over your ears and shout "VPW is my god, VPW is my God" all you want but you are living a lie if you think VPW was a straightup guy. He was a thief. Don't let your continued and willfull ignorance of the issues relating to plagiarism be your excuse to continue letting VPW off the hook for an offense that would have his books withdrawn from publication and make him the target of a lawsuit had he published outside of the vanity press. Of course that is highly doubtful since he probably couldn't pass even the more basic forms of editorial review.

Be aware that there are VPW devotees who simply refuse to admit that VPW was guilty of plagiarism to any degree even when shown side by side comparisons. In this case I'm thinking of the RTHS book as opposed to ATDAN. The VPW devotee usually has at least 3 arguments in this area though don't expect them to be responsive to the answers. After all they are basically still very much enchanted with the VPW "mystique" and will typically reject any and all criticisms of VPW. 1) So what if he plagiarized ? Its God's word no matter who writes it down... Oh really ? And who says that the books "authored" by VPW are commonly accepted as being right on anyway ? Lots of his "teachings" simply combine 50s pop pyschology (believing=receiving) with teachings from Leonard and Stiles and others. So can the VPW devotee say that all those sources are "of God" ? Gee. You would have to go to the "original text" to check that out. But wait. Those words were written by someone else.. other men.. yet they neve claimed that their "research" was "god breathed" or worse, a valid substitute for the bible and reading it on your own without writing entire chapters of PFAL into the margin. VPW claimed that God showed him all this stuff. If that were true then why do we have near identity in some cases to pre-existing published works. Interesting. I mean hey this inside info that god gave VPW was supposed to be teaching the word as it hadn't been taught since the first century. Looks he got scooped by some other guys though. It must have been a trick of the "day-vil" that there were these identities. Well the VPW addict would claim that Leonard and Stiles were "right on" simply not to the lose the argument. But VPW just repackaged what someone else wrote. In the case of the "law of believing" it was 50s pop mentality (Norman Vincent Peale, Earl Nightingale, Maxwell Maltz all of whom predated VPW's "law of believing" yet had extremely similar messages. But just how does one "prove" that the so called "law of believing" works for saint or sinner alike. It failed miserably for VPW and its failed for many people and this was supposed to be the foundation of the foundational class ! And this is but ONE example of the flawed teachings of PFAL. And "get your needs and wants parallel" ! What the HELL did that ever mean and how would you do that ? I never got the same explanation twice from anyone in TWI not even from the so called "heavyweights". One guy just said "well you just have to accept some things without analyzing it too much". Wow. Such helpful instruction. And it was supposed to "mathematically exact" and "scientifically precise" though no one could explain it. 2) "VPW didn't plagiarize. Why back at a Corps meeting I heard him openly credit Stiles and Leonard so he fulfilled his obligation". Wrong.... There are accepted practices for acknowledging the works of others as you prepare and publish your own work. These practices require complaince with style standards all of which demand a bibliography and proper footnotes even when paraphrasing the words of another. Verbal attribution is NOT an acceptable substitute for proper, written acknowledgement. Not doing so in academic settings and legitimate publishing circles can be a career ender. VPW self published through TWI (aka "vanity published") to escape the usual and customary editorial review processes that accompany the publication of books. There were no editors (at least not anyone who wasn't a yes man for Vic) to say "well this looks like something else I've seen before" or to say "are you sure you have submitted your complete bibliography" or "wow. you make some interesting conclusions here. When did this idea come to you ? Is this an extension of your doctoral thesis ?" Vic didnt' want that scrutiny because he was anxious to publish and he could not be bothered with the heat (and rejection) he would endure had he attempted publication through established christian publication houses or academic journals. Its trivial to set up your own publishing house and pay for someone to bind your "masterpiece". After all if its written down then it MUST be true right ? Even more discouraging is an astonishing lack of understanding among many Way followers (past and present) that plagiarism is a very,very serious offense in academic circles that can end a career. Since VPW did have some legitimate education he would have known this (though his "doctorate" was a joke which the devotees still have problems admitting). But just because a given Way follower is ignorant of the graivty of plagiarism doesn't mean that he or she can let VPW off the hook for ripping off someone else. 3) If VPW did plagiarize then why wasn't he pursued by Stiles and Leonard or Bullinger ? Obviously they didn't care so its all good therefore no wrong was done. Who knows ? Were they even aware that it had happened ? WHEN were they made aware ? Do you know for sure or is it specualtion on your part ? Even if they did know about early on and refused to do anything about it, its still WRONG ! Thats like saying that stealing anything is fine and as long as you don't punished its not a crime ! Or that the person you stole from doesn't seem to care that you did steal so it must be okay. Thats some whacked biblical logic yet many former Way supporters think like this relative to VPW. Baloney...Of course its a crime you just didn't get punished for it. Count yourself lucky. Stealing from someone is always wrong whether or not the victim knows about it or even if he doesn't seem to care. Check out some web resources on plagiarism. Do your own web search but here are a couple to get started. http://www.csubak.edu/ssric/Modules/Other/plagiarism.htm http://www.web-miner.com/plagiarism

Does anyone have any original memos or lists that TWI issued about accomodating visiting "men of god" ? I've seen one or two and that was long ago (like 77 or so). I would be interested in seeing what they have added to the list since that time. I seem to recall that someone posted here (or maybe on Waydale) that she had at one time cut hair at HQ and was responsible for Craig's hair (what little there was) and she made reference to some memo that said something like "the man of god should not be self-conscious of his appearance". So in anticipation of presentations the lighting directors would conspire to create lighting to present Craig in the best view. What a vain SOB... He was going bald and he just couldn't handle it so they have to get hair stylists and lighting crews to attempt to disguise it ? (like its not totally obvious). Anyway if someone has access to those memos I would be curious to see what the "guidelines" were/are.

As mentioned in another thread TWI never counted on Waydale and Gspot being such rich sources of information. Initially they attempted to discount the forums as a collection of malcontents though , in typical arrogant Way fashion, failed to understand its appeal to those currently in who were curious about things and wanted to know more. They ordered their members to stay away from these forums and attempted to characterize the internet in general as being evil. Of course we all know they simply didn't want followers to have access to such a detailed history of TWI and its problems. If TWI really is the one true church then why do they worry about what an internet forum says about them ? As the information continued to emerge here Way leaders felt they had to task their "elite workers" with monitoring these forums and planting false info to "smoke out" would be traitors and those contemplating a departure. Again what do they have to fear if they are really "walking out on God's wonderful , matchless word" ? I strongly believe that had these forums NOT been as functional as they had been then TWI would have done nothing about LCM and left him intact. But the leaders were concerned about the large amount of detail published about the case so they had to react. Also removing LCM was the thing to do since to allow him to remain might increase their liability. They certainly didn't remove him out of any sense of right or wrong (As if they even care about that kind of thing). I mean any religious organization that accepts the idea that "sex is like a handshake" is clearly not driven by biblical morals and concerns. The interesting thing is that Way leaders cannnot deny this and expect to get away with it because plenty of people here have heard this philosophy expressed many times during their tenure with TWI and some know it even better "ginosko" (whatever that greek word was for "knowing by experience). In terms of the status of LCM it has never been clear that he has been "booted","M&Aed","kicked out" from TWI just that he has taken a very low profile. The fact that he has taken other employment means nothing in terms of his finanical interests to TWI or what he will receive at retirement. It stands to reason that Craig probably has a lot of detailed knowlwedge on the rest of the group so for them to totally kick him out would't make sense. Of course why isn't he running a Fortune 500 company or calling the shots for his own multi-million dollar enterprise. He certainly used to brag that he could do these things.

LCM dropped out of sight certainly in comparison to his previous position but his wife remains in an exalted position and its never been stated that he has been M&Aed nor has there been a public "washing of hands" to make it clear that LCM's personal and financial ties to TWI had been severed. TWI management HAD to do something since they knew the details of the depositions were here and that innies would be reading so they felt compelled to act. The signs suggest that LCM is on some type of probation and its never been stated that he is not welcome back at some point in the future. TWI never counted on Waydale and Gspot being such rich sources of detailed information. It has never been stated that LCM has been "booted" or that he doesn't get some type of financial assistance from TWI (or that he won't when he retires). My speculation is that had the details of the earlier lawsuit NOT been as widely circulated then TWI would have done nothing about Craig and would have left him in place. Its only when the evidence is undeniable that they would do something. Besides. Roz knew all about LCM's activities yet SHE still remains ? Why is she still around if they had such a conscience to do the right thing ? Seems to me , and by your own logic, that if TWI were concerned with doing the "right thing" then she would have stepped down also since she was part of the deception and coverup ? But see thats the illness of TWI. In my experience they do things just for show without wanting to address the real problems. Relative to the recent conviction. As others have pointed out why didn't Way leaders and Corps know this guy had a problem (I'm sure they did actually but chose not to act) since they allege to have such keen spirtual perception ? Surely they could have seen this one coming and dealt with it long before it got out of hand (though sounds like the guy had problems early on). ? So of course Way leaders aren't going to admit that he was abusing children on their watch. That would be legal suicide so whats the big surprise that they would continue to deny these "accusations" against one of their "ministers" ? It would be highly unlikely that they would come out and say "oh yea well we knew he had problems from way back but you know we didn't do anything about it". That would clear the way for some more legal action.

I think all the sorcery in the Potter books (at least the early ones) was just a methaphor. The storyline has it that this kid was from this miserable background and was living with people who despised him and he was basically incapable to do anything about it but then discovered his "powers" which allowed him to leave and be recognized as being special. I think any kid who has had a tough time growing up has thought like this a time or two. I think the author just expanded signficantly on that theme. The appeal of the Potter books and the Star Wars movies both make me think of how TWI pitched the advanced class to people as if you could be "tapped in operating all nine all the time" as if your walk with God was this ongoing conversation with some voice on the other line always telling you what to do when to do it no matter how insignificant it was. "Oh dear, should we have the chicken and rice or the beef and rice. I know ,I'll reach into Daddy's cookie jar to find out". This is not an understatement at all. I knew plenty of people who readily admitted to living like this (where they were getting "answers" from who knows) and they were so afraid of making even the most basic of decisions without "checking with Father".

yes who indeed really knows all the details but when dealing with the elderly it should first be assumed that vague or unsatisfactory answers to police questions could at the very least be the result of senility, bad hearing or a combination thereof. I find it silly that the PD would say that the patrol car was in plain site when 1) it was at night and 2) many 73 year old people could't see a mountain if it was in front of them. I know people half that age who couldn't see a car on the street at night either. Sounds to me like an inexperienced officer or one who had a bad day. Of course the department would never back down from this for legal reasons. I wonder what made this "investigation" so urgent that the officer couldn't wait for her to verify his identity ? It must not have been *that* urgent since he had time to issue a citation. Maybe he thought she was going to run from the scene ? Damage to a neighbor's fence isn't exactly up there with the great train robbery. Of course the officer will claim that he didn't know that she was 73 until he issued the citation though it certainly couldn't have escaped his attention that she was advanced in age (look at her picture in the link) - unless he is just clueless or vindictive. Now if it turned out that the officer had prior experience with this woman then he would have known that she was 73. And if based on previous experience with her she had been uncooperative in his view then they would have most likely deployed two officers ,perhaps a female officer, to the scene. In general law enforcement is a thankless task and experienced officers recognize this yet still manage to conduct their work professionally and in a fashion that demonstrates intelligence and sensitivity to the situation at hand and I'm glad we have people out there willing to do the work. Just as there are bad mechanincs, plumbers, doctors, etc there are sure to be policemen who would do better at being something else.

Spiritual matters ? Its rather pointless to discuss spirituality since you lack even a minimial amount of respect for other humans which is characteristic of the so called christian who thinks his "special" relationship with god entitles him to disparage others and engage in self-serving behavior. It is tempting to call you a bible bigot but you are not even in touch with that book preferring the "reality" given to you by TWI as a valid substitute for "God's Will". But you have managed to one up even Craig in youself-absorbed "spiritual" drivel. John you are a true embarrasment to christians who do have concern for themselves, others, and their community. But your "community" ,all ONE of them (that would be you), is uniquely concerned about protecting yourself from well whatever it is you feel like whining about on a given day. Thats some platform for personal power and advancement. And if it came down to it you would turn on lower class whites if they voiced concerns about discrimination. Don't pretend to speak for others as we both know you don't. You can't get an audience in your daily life so you come here with this crap. If someone was listening to you then you wouldn't be trying to pass your message of intolerance and disrespect here. Its interesting that you have to define yourself as NOT being something. Thats a typical sign on weakness. Your whole stance is a reaction to a perceived loss of (white) power in this society and how that might impact *you*. You can't say who you are or what it is you want but you can say who you are NOT and what you DONT want. Thats weak on every level since you are allowing something else to establish your identity. And its as if all you are discussing wasn't there until you became afraid (and you are terribly afraid) that minorities might "get some of what you got" and that would somehow diminish your existence. How selfish and infantile can you be ? Institutionalized slavery was around for a couple of hundred years and Jim Crow laws for about a century and you want to whine about how some black guy looked at you funny as if thats even comparable. Its also telling that you immediately speak of the "KKK,nazis, and skinheads" as opposed to some biblical reference or great social figure who feels the same as you do. Could it be that you have more in common with the KKK than you do with mainstream christian religion ? You were the one who brought up those groups. But even so. I can respect the skinhead ,if such a thing is possible, since they put it out there everytime they shave their heads and wear their swastikas - They don't like a person because they aren't white and they'll let you know that. They are scum to be sure but at least you know with whom you are dealing. But you are the closeted type who is afraid to publicly voice his "opinions" preferring the safety of personal conversations and posting on anonymous internet forums like Gpsot. I challenged you to write letters to your local newspaper but you won't because you dont' have the courage of your convictions. But we both know that don't we. All this anger and venom is a mask for insecurity which also relates to this: The fact that you think God sanctions violence against women based on biological grounds is because you feel powerless in your own life so your cathartic solution is to take advantage of those physically weaker than yourself. Thats pathetic. You aren't happy with yourself so you think its fine for yourself and others to "clock" women ? (Because Paul Newman did it in a movie !!). Thats sick, vile, and against the law as it should be. Anyone who advocates violence against women as a valid and godly substitute for communication is whacked. By your logic God made some men bigger than other men who might in fact take issue with the men who beat up on women. Or maybe because God made some guys bigger than others then they should go around "clocking" them just to set them straight ? Some "wifebeater theory" you got there. It doesn't even make sense on any level. john said: The "Scary" thing is that you are talking at all about "clocking" women as if you hope to garner support for your criminal (its againt the law) view point. But violence is not the answer but lets be frank you aren't even prepared for that. You are at a point in your life where ,based on your statements that you feel powerless and unable to respond to some set of problems so you try to forge a deal with God (or maybe the devil) in the hopes he will sanction and indulge your selfish behavior but he won't. You are just fooling yourself. Its been said before.. get help and get it soon....

John. You have a selective memory and chose to forget what we both know was true. Deny if you must but we both know you said those things. I placed it in context for you and you know very well that its true. But now at least you dropped the "nice guy" act (which was transparent anyway). You have a stated lack of respect for women which doens't even qualify you to say anything here from a moral point of view. I'm surprised you call yourself a christian though plenty of people do horrible things under the guise of christianity and some alleged biblical precedent known only to them. The "reality" is that the more you talk the more you magnify your personal bitterness and resentment. Quoting PFAL all you want but it doesn't change who you are and the fact that you need professional help. I take nothing you say seriously and consider it the bilious,bloated ramblings of someone wanting attention. You are like Father McKenzie..."writing the words to a sermon that no one will hear"..... Guess you think Gspot (and formerly Waydale) were like your pulpit or something.

diazbro said: Then John said: You made the remark on Waydale about the same time that you said that you have "people who come to me" in reference to "your [alleged] followers" who sought your counsel outside of the general forums available at Waydale. You also wove in talk about AA. Subsequently you accused me of having a "crisis of confidence". But this is nothing in comparison to this..... John said: Oh My Lord ! "clock her like she deserves" ? "swats the fly" ? John you need help asap. I had no idea. That is all I can say. You are falling apart. I had no idea about these statements relative to women. It is sickening. Truly sickening. This is vile and if you truly believe this you need help quickly. Heaven help the man who touched my daughter or sister thinking he was "swatting a fly". Heaven help the man who "clocked" them under any circumstances. Jail would seem a paradise to him... Discussions with you relating to social issues are pointless given these statements. Get help....

Wow Oak. Where the heck do you work ?

Well you totally avoided answering the question about hitting women though I'm not surprised. I'll assume then that what others have posted then is true. You can correct this impression if you so chose. To be frank you aren't strong enough to deal with any of this - that much is clear. You are very weak John. Very weak. God I never hope you have to deal with any real racial issues in your life- you couldn't last. This whole thing begain because *you* claimed something that simply is not true and once confronted you start with the BS and misdirection. Once again - WHMs do call the shots in this society and they are NOT at the bottom of the foodchain. About that there can be no debate though when confronted you still won't acknowledge that but thats okay. We both know its true despite your tangents. You try to misdirect things to isolated cases as if you have sufferred as minorities do on a daily basis when you never have - NOT EVEN CLOSE ! You don't have the strength to deal with vital and real issues like social inequities, prejudice, and inter-racial relations all of which are key to making a stronger more effective society and nation. Its to everyones advantage to deal with these issues before the country endures a crisis or challenge that could one day polarize us. On a practical level John the hispanic community continues to grow significantly each year so you might want to quit whining and deal with it. The things you say like "non white people are more prejudiced against white people than the reverse" is so wrong and completeley dismissive of what history has shown time and again. You must be the dumbest guy on the planet or you have a problem with race. It is possible that you simply cannot come to terms with the reality that millions of people have sufferred as a result of discrimination in ways that you cannot imagine because you are privileged. And no one has asked you to apologize for that. But instead of doing what most reasonable people would do, talk it over, you become incredibly defensive and pursue a path of denial to preserve your peace which is obviously fragile and most likely based on the concept of "Each to his kind" (i.e each to his own skin color). You are like some rich kid who whines and moans about being inconvenienced. "Oh Let them eat cake.. or fried chicken, ribs, tacos, tamales or whatever". Your "strategy" is to rapidly label anyone who disagrees with you a racist or bigot or somehow unchristian to preempt characterizations of you in that light. It doesn't work John so you might find some new schtik Lastly, in a strange way its interesting to see the "real" John back. The act you've been putting down for quite a while now was always forced. And what was it you told me once ? Yes. That I would "burn in the lake of fire". That was classic. Of course you would prefer it be in the lake of fire reserved for "colored people".

I agree with Invisible Dan in that Satan has better taste. Plus he made that conquest years ago when TWI looked much better to him so to come back now to TWI would suggest he has no new targets and must recycle back to an ex old flame (so to speak). Of course TWI would be a good roll in the hay for him given how willingly they take to deception and the like. On the other hand it might have been a one night stand for old scratch which he very much regretted the next morning when he saw just how ugly TWI is in the cold light of day so he bolted and never came back. So he left TWI to the "generals" (daimon ?) who have in turn passed it on to the junior demons. TWI might like to claim that they are Satan's number one enemy but thats just arrogance on their part. In fact they actually do more to drive people towards satan than away.

Oh John. Again I say that I don't think you represent the average WHM and thank God for that. I really do. And I'm sure that there are plenty WHMs who do too. You are following the script that many self righteous guys before you have followed. The more talk about minorities and discrimination which emerges, the more defensive you become which in turn only magnifies your unwillingness to acknowledge what is well known and you yourself freely admit (though complain about) - That your demographic calls the shots and any discussion of that is met with utter hostility and resentment towards those who bring it up. You don't want to understand problems asscoiated with racism as much as you want to preserve protection from vocal minority voices as if there exists some law to "make 'them' go away and be quiet".( By the way don't count on it). You take for granted the privilege your skin color and gender afford you because you've never had to exist any other way. No one has asked you to apologize for that but at least step up and acknowledge it. Your posts remind me of some infamous grafitti that keeps returning to workplace bathroom walls all over this country. I've seen it hundreds of times. No doubt John you are quite familiar with it: "black is beautiful and tan is grand, but white is the color of the big boss man" Of course it is true and we all know it is so why not acknowledge it ? But graffitti like this is the product of resentment resulting from the realization that minorities have been systematcially shafted and now wish to address it. So the "author" of this type of thing seeks to remind those minorities that they can complain all they want but its still a white world. But of course they (the authors) are reduced to writing stuff like this on bathroom walls instead of speaking up about it in public. How admirable. "Lets demoralize minorities with bathroom grafitti". Ah yes and you pull up isolated, anecdotal evidence to justify your attitudes. You haven't a clue about dealing with systematic, patterned discrimination - and you should be thankful for that ! You really should count your blessings because given your reaction to even this limited amount of exchange on race issues you would crumble like a cookie if you had to endure discrimination that is common to the daily minority experience. Your dislike of the reality that minorities wish to advance themselves (just like white people have been doing for years) does not change anything so you should practice acceptance of this "reality" and quit trying to keep everything so "black and white". Your "reality" is based upon the preservation of a way of life that excludes consideration of others and the problems they have had to deal with (and countinue to do so) on a systematic basis. The equality that minorities seek doesn't come at the expense of your personal freedom which you seem to believe to be the case. If your life is inconvenienced or you are irritated by the reality that racial prejudice has kept many a person down then thats nothing in comparison to what people have endured to get to a place that they can pursue the very opportunities that you take for granted. But John if you are convinced that you are right then write a letter to your local newspaper and voice these opinions using the same language you have here. Why not ? Why not share you enlightened (no pun intended) views with your community, your congressman, even the president. If you are so sure that you are right and its the minorities who have the problems then surely it will resonate with those of a kindred spirit and you can suppress the troublemakers, write a book, and go on the lecture circuit. Oh so God is a white heterosexual male too ? So he must be at the bottom of the food chain too then... Poor guy... So I get it.... In God's eyes we are all the same so no one should ever complain about racial injustice because of that ? What an ultra lame move John. Lastly I would like to know what your objections are relative to jail time for men who assault women. I've seen others post some things and you certainly haven't denied what has been posted but perhaps you yourself can state what it is you feel to be so bad about jail time for women beaters if in fact you have a problem with that.

First I really don't think you speak for all WHMs (White Heteroexual Males) and thank God for that. You talk about something being "pretty blatant". Its blatant that WHMs (white heterosexual males) call the shots in this society. The puzzling thing is that you readily admit this in your post yet you also claim that WHM are the "bottom of the foodchain"... Which is it ? I've never seen the those who are truly at the "bottom of the foodchain" somehow manage to exercise enough influence to win a presidential election (as you pointed out). You characterize the problems resulting from the applications of "political correctness" as being the equivalent of suffering first hand,sytematic racial abuse (of which you have very little firsthand knowledge). Thats a mind blower and we'll get to that in a sec. And if one of your major complaints is that WHM can't flirt with women at work because its politically incorrect then there is little hope of orienting such a person to the reality that minorities face on a daily basis and you should readily admit this. Now this gem... So he shouldn't ? Dunno about you but I do NOT want to exist in a society where beating women is NOT a crime punishable by jail time. And speaking of "beating". Have you been beaten up *many times* because of your race ? Has anyone ever said "Gee you are smart for a Spic..Just teasing.. Yuck,Yuck". Have the police stopped,searched and cuffed you as you were walking in your OWN neighborhood because you don't fit the "profile of the neighborhood" ? And speaking of walking - what about people throwing bottles at you and screaming insults just because of your skin color. Have you been denied a loan because of your race ? What about someone's parents telling you to "stay away from our daughter" because they don't want her marrying a person "of color". And the classic .. "You should know your place !" I've got LOTS more personal stories like this some alot worse than what I've put down. We both know you have no experience at all with any of the above and if you have its only been isolated incidents and not related to any pattern. Because if you had then you wouldn't be comparing your problems with "political correctness" to the painful realities that minorities deal with every day ! I suppose if you want to rank "fried chicken" comments about Tiger Woods up there with this then you are entitled but its terribly sad that you think it should be cool for some to be able to make crude,cliche jokes about someone of another color. Thats NOT cool. It never has been and I sincerely hope that it never will be. Seems to me that *some* WHMs don't ever want to hear anything about the privilege they enjoy in this society OR the problems that minorities and women have to deal with on a daily basis. And when these topics come up some WHMs want to try to play the martyr card (like they even could) which is so tragic and sad because they don't even know what it is they should be complaining about except maybe some "sexual harassment case" or how "some feminist" sued to get membership at a male only country club. Like this is a sign of the coming Apocalypse.... Get real John. Your demongraphic calls the shots in the US and thats reality. Quit acting like you are "the oppressed". I dont' even want to pretend to tolerate this crap. If you want to play like you are somehow being dumped on by society then go ahead but don't expect me to accept it as anything but what it is - an insult to those who have put up with a LOT more crap than you can ever imagine. Lots of people work hard and carve out a life here despite the problems associated with "color" and "gender" but there is always some guy who wants to remind the minorities that they aren't calling the shots - "someone" else is. I couldn't but help note what horrible problems *Some* WHMS have these days. It must be tough to be at the "bottom of the food chain"... http://news.yahoo.com/s/keye/20050714/lo_k...tsheftypayraise

TWI presented a horribly skewed version of life and reality that has impaired the ability of many of its former followers to adjust to life in the general world. While lots of Wayfers were busy pushing the WOW our relatives and friends were busy learning the basic coping skills and addressing day to day problems that accompany existence on this planet (aging parents, chronic illness, financial problems, career). And they managed to do this without laying the blame on "devil spirits" or some "seed boy". Nor did they see every challenge life presented as some indication that they were "believing negatively" or that they had played an active role in their general misfortune. No. They sucked it up and dealt with the problems while lots of us Way people pretended we could talk to god and others couldn't. Worse TWI taught that people not willing to stand with TWI were corpses and not worthy of our time should they reject our witness. It didn't matter if it was family members either. This is ironic because its those people who actually learned more about life. This policy isolated us from people who could also teach us alot about getting on with things and accomplishment. While in TWI I learned alot about mysticism, weird food, slang sex terms, and conspiracy theories but not alot about practical stuff that people outside of TWI took for granted as a necessary thing. Thank God (no pun intended) that I realized it and did something about it. Lots of people sufferred from arrested development while in TWI. There were many talented and gifted people who never fully realized their potential because they were moving every year , sometimes more often, and jumping up and down everytime a way leader asked them to. And I wish them well as they begin to dust off and reassemble the dreams and goals that they put aside to serve TWI and its interests. So what does this have to do with splinters ? Well I've encountered adherents to various offshoots who still very much feel as they did while in TWI - that their fellowship is the only fellowship, that their God is the only god, etc. In many ways being in TWI was like being in suspended anmination relative to the rest of the world and some of the splinters keep that suspension going. They still have the contempt and disdain for people not willing to join up with them. And sure they have a reality but it is solidly molded after Way teaching that doesn't promote a practical outlook on life which includes respect for other human beings and the surrounding community. Thats gonna be a function of the person and the splinter but thus far I haven't encountered many that seem that different from TWI and what it taught. Sure these people and groups are real. No doubt but do they have independence from the arrogance and elitism of TWI ? Are they capable of genuine concern for others even if they don't chose to believe in the same religion ? Hopefully the answer is a resounding "yes" though based on my limited experience with splinters that hasn't been the case at all.

You wanna explain this ?

The Whiteside book was presented as an alleged "slice of life" look at what happens at HQ on a daily basis. It was held up as an example of the so called abundant life and lots of leaders in the field would use the book as a basis for embellishment to get people to wonder what it would be like to "serve" at HQ and be so close to "doctor" and be really "tapped in". I was told that I could never truly experience the abundant life until I made a trip to HQ and "spent time there" which of course was possible if you invested in the Way lifestyle and progressed in the programs. Of course the "next best thing" was the ROA. Conspicuously absent from the book are major details relating to the Doop/Heefner associations and resulting power struggles. I suspect that such information was far too real and nitty-gritty to be included in a book whose sole mission was to magnify TW and VPW. The book was very sanitized and free of anything but postives and praise for TW. It was hardly an unbiased look at TW - lets put it that way. In general the book was touted as a source of inspiration and something to aspire to in our daily lives even if we couldn't be at HQ. The book was used as a basis to launch into discussions relative to the signs and miracles which were supposedly a daily and routine occurrence at "HQ". The nature of the deliverance was of the "the blind could see " and the "lame could walk" variety. Of course once I took the time to go to "HQ" I didn't see any of this. I DID see lots of idealistic young people being irrepressibly optimistic about things and wanting so badly to make a difference. But I also saw this in communes and activist groups I had checked out previously. It was the same energy and desire to make a difference. But I never saw evidence of some utopian existence or bliss type of lifestyle depicted in the book. Nor did I see any of these "awesome miracles" that I was told happened on a daily basis. If they were happening then people were awfully quiet about them. Sure there were folks talking about how their "sore throat was healed" after someone prayed for them but in my book thats not a miracle. (Perhaps TWI cheapened the whole concept of miracle to lower people's standards as to what consitutes one). People were so desperate to latch onto something meaningful and important that they were willing to tolerate behavior from VPW and other Way leaders that the wouldn't tolerate from their best friends or blood family members. The promise of "something big happening" kept lots of folks on board. It was a complex time and lots of people felt like they had no control over their lives and if they could regain some confidence and personal power (real or imagined) by aligning themselves with a spiritual cause like TWI then that was good enough for many. I , like lots of folks, was in this category. So much of the growth associated with TWI was based on the ideals and optimism of a generation. If anything we were more likeminded prior to our Way experience than during or after. We were all after many of the same things and goals and TWI (as well as other alternative organizations) provided a seemingly good fit at least at the time. Too bad it didn't pan out...